Was Bitcoin actually just a Pump and Dump? - page 12.

Amph

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Quote from: deisik on June 04, 2015, 09:31:23 PM

Quote from: pereira4 on June 04, 2015, 02:08:30 PM

Quote from: master sato on June 03, 2015, 07:04:47 PM

Just remember a bitcoin is a place holder for the speculative value that we the public assign to it. It has no intrinsic value, and as such reacts like a stock in the speculative market, meaning it is extremely volatile.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Gold has value because of network effect, just like Bitcoin. In any case, Bitcoin has more intrinsic value than Gold, because it's a lot more useful than a piece of metal.

You obviously forget that this metal has many uses beyond just being a precious one. So you may want to think again which has more "intrinsic" value...

the same is for the technology sorrounding bitcoin, it has more to offer than just being an instrument for trading, just think of what you can build on top of the blockchain that can make your life easy or better

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: BTCevo on June 04, 2015, 10:43:35 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on June 03, 2015, 02:39:35 PM

No. It was a solid project, not a pump and dump.
People don't have the patience to wait this much for a scam. If it would have been a pump and dump, Bitcoin would have become dust even before the first altcoins came to life.

I think people doing this pump and dump because of arbitrage from one exchanger through another exchanger so if they dont have the patience they still can get their own profit through pumping and dumping. But how is this things become a solid project if its price is still volatile?

Stock market, Forex, name it. Everywhere pumps and dumps can happen. And if they don't, it may be because of the regulations and the high volumes.
Bitcoin market is not regulated and it's full of newbies. Anyone that has enough money and know some psychology and trading techniques can take profit really.
And then there are the huge mining facilities which, frankly, work to gain fiat, not bitcoin.

Imho Facebook is a much weaker project than bitcoin. Facebook stocks are also traded, they also have better or worse times and some know how to profit. And yet, I didn't hear voices telling that FB is just a pump and dump.

US dollar. Just ask around how much you could buy with 20$ some 50-70 years ago. Now its value is greatly diluted. Is USD just a pump and dump?

PenguinFire

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Quote from: Slark on June 05, 2015, 12:25:01 AM

Quote from: bornil267645 on October 29, 2014, 11:58:12 AM

I don't have any doubt that this was all just big pump and dump, but my theory is, even the BTC creators didn't realize that Bitcoin would go this far.

No, not really. People tend to forget that bitcoin was not worth anything during its early stage. How exactly you expect that Satoshi knew it will become popular.
If creation of bitcoin was only a pump scheme aimed for eating a lot of money fast, then why Satoshi did not dump his coins?
There are a lot of contradictions and unproven facts in 'pump & dump theory' for it to be viable.

I am sure it's many unique features allowed him to have the belief it had the possibly to become adopted and and become popular.

Slark

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Quote from: bornil267645 on October 29, 2014, 11:58:12 AM

I don't have any doubt that this was all just big pump and dump, but my theory is, even the BTC creators didn't realize that Bitcoin would go this far.

No, not really. People tend to forget that bitcoin was not worth anything during its early stage. How exactly you expect that Satoshi knew it will become popular.
If creation of bitcoin was only a pump scheme aimed for eating a lot of money fast, then why Satoshi did not dump his coins?
There are a lot of contradictions and unproven facts in 'pump & dump theory' for it to be viable.

BlindMayorBitcorn

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Gold's value is evidenced by the fact that if it wasn't precious we would be lining our lives with it, in countless ways. It has remarkable properties.

deisik

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Quote from: pereira4 on June 04, 2015, 02:08:30 PM

Quote from: master sato on June 03, 2015, 07:04:47 PM

Just remember a bitcoin is a place holder for the speculative value that we the public assign to it. It has no intrinsic value, and as such reacts like a stock in the speculative market, meaning it is extremely volatile.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Gold has value because of network effect, just like Bitcoin. In any case, Bitcoin has more intrinsic value than Gold, because it's a lot more useful than a piece of metal.

You obviously forget that this metal has many uses beyond just being a precious one. So you may want to think again which has more "intrinsic" value...

STT

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No I'd say that argument cant really be justified. Gold has unique properties that require no maintenance or belief to continue in its existence, its not a naturally produced metal on earth and the way it reacts is 'useful' in ways nothing else quite matches. We can use copper or all sorts of other metals but none are quite the same, its established by itself as a product and the biggest thing is it doesnt degrade.
Bitcoin is designed to be duplicated, its substantially different and the network effect of belief, maintenance, usage to prove its worth and continued use is very much part of its make up. Gold could go unused by everyone on the planet forgotten for a century and those who find it in a hundred years would still be able to recognise it as different from anything else and in that time nothing else could have replaced it as a product. Neither is essential to live by but of the two gold has more unique values where bitcoin is a pinnacle of technology so far

pereira4

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Quote from: master sato on June 03, 2015, 07:04:47 PM

Just remember a bitcoin is a place holder for the speculative value that we the public assign to it. It has no intrinsic value, and as such reacts like a stock in the speculative market, meaning it is extremely volatile.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Gold has value because of network effect, just like Bitcoin. In any case, Bitcoin has more intrinsic value than Gold, because it's a lot more useful than a piece of metal.

BTCevo

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on June 03, 2015, 02:39:35 PM

No. It was a solid project, not a pump and dump.
People don't have the patience to wait this much for a scam. If it would have been a pump and dump, Bitcoin would have become dust even before the first altcoins came to life.

I think people doing this pump and dump because of arbitrage from one exchanger through another exchanger so if they dont have the patience they still can get their own profit through pumping and dumping. But how is this things become a solid project if its price is still volatile?

master sato

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Just remember a bitcoin is a place holder for the speculative value that we the public assign to it. It has no intrinsic value, and as such reacts like a stock in the speculative market, meaning it is extremely volatile.

NeuroticFish

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No. It was a solid project, not a pump and dump.
People don't have the patience to wait this much for a scam. If it would have been a pump and dump, Bitcoin would have become dust even before the first altcoins came to life.

Clint

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Yes, I think bitcoin was pump and dump when it first started. Every cryptocurrency has some kind of pump and dump to have more users.

techgeek

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Quote from: deisik on June 02, 2015, 07:34:11 AM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 08, 2015, 06:58:12 PM

Quote from: Amph on April 08, 2015, 02:21:11 AM

so in the end we will just have a standard altcoin like the one in the altcoin section, but made instead from banks, which are worse than a malicious dev

i could see all the shit in the altsection re-made from banks authority(pos, ico, iipo ecc...)

Goldman sachs coin or JP Morgan coin? Grin

That would be funny really.

I can just put my head around how interesting that one would be.

There is nothing new under the moon. You can turn your head to history, that is, to what is called Free Banking Era, the period from 1837 to 1864 in the US when banks were not subject to special regulations and issued their own paper currency ("JP Morgan coin"). It is noteworthy that an average lifespan of a bank back then was about five years...

You pretend to be an economist, and I am utterly curious what university you graduated from

Why would they even to start to do that.

Makes no sense, fiat is whats been making them rich as hell, and the fastest dead currency coming soon near you, but they own almost everything.

mrhelpful

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In the last historic events of bitcoin w. a bitcoin exchange yes.

As long as these exchanges dont do a mt.gox moment they still have the ability to control prices, look at btc-e theres a reason why its way cheaper back in the day.

deisik

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 08, 2015, 06:58:12 PM

Quote from: Amph on April 08, 2015, 02:21:11 AM

so in the end we will just have a standard altcoin like the one in the altcoin section, but made instead from banks, which are worse than a malicious dev

i could see all the shit in the altsection re-made from banks authority(pos, ico, iipo ecc...)

Goldman sachs coin or JP Morgan coin? Grin

That would be funny really.

I can just put my head around how interesting that one would be.

There is nothing new under the moon. You can turn your head to history, that is, to what is called Free Banking Era, the period from 1837 to 1864 in the US when banks were not subject to special regulations and issued their own paper currency ("JP Morgan coin"). It is noteworthy that an average lifespan of a bank back then was about five years...

You pretend to be an economist, and I am utterly curious what university you graduated from

cellard

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Everything gets pump and dumped as long as the market allows for it via free supply and demand, there is always a lot of people with a lot of money with agendas, they will pump and dump.
This doesn't change the fundamentals of in the long run: A disrupting technology worth being at sooner than later.

Pab

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Quite good post.i even think partially it is truth,if will be not technology development done i will say it is truth in a case of bitcoin and all enviroment,but there is few good alt and future iscrazy and future is know
So will be newalts not based on blockchain technology

Whatever bitcoin wascreated to just steal some money or not,it cause technology development in digital currencyareaandcreated kind of sociaty.Finally we here ,we are not created by scamers

thriftshopping

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You can say that, bitcoin it's notorious for volatility, but if you are in the right place and the right time you can earn a lot of money form BTC.

GreenStox

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Quote from: Amph on April 08, 2015, 02:21:11 AM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 07, 2015, 03:41:28 PM

Quote from: Amph on April 07, 2015, 03:32:54 PM

Quote from: OpenOcean on April 07, 2015, 08:29:33 AM

It might have been a pump and dump, but it did create utility to the point where almost all majour banks have blockchain technology R&D going on.

blockchain technology are nothing without decentralization, the whole point of blockchain isn't just a digital ledger, i would say to the banks, thanks but no thanks, you can take your centralized blockchain and turn back to fiat

bitcoin is still preferably, no point in making a bad copy of it

I dont think they would centralize it, but they would definitely make some complicated derivative out of it, which would be so complicately coded, that normal peer-review would not detect it, and so they could hide a ponzi scheme in it.

Besides they would instamine it and keep 99% of it between themselves, or just make it with no fixed supply, and a voting system when to issue more of it.

So they would do the same thing as now, but with a decentralized system, which is a bit shadily implemented and contructed, to have a bitcoin appeal to it, when in fact it would be a scam.

so in the end we will just have a standard altcoin like the one in the altcoin section, but made instead from banks, which are worse than a malicious dev

i could see all the shit in the altsection re-made from banks authority(pos, ico, iipo ecc...)

Goldman sachs coin or JP Morgan coin? Grin

That would be funny really.

I can just put my head around how interesting that one would be.

Denker

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 07, 2015, 03:41:28 PM

Quote from: Amph on April 07, 2015, 03:32:54 PM

Quote from: OpenOcean on April 07, 2015, 08:29:33 AM

It might have been a pump and dump, but it did create utility to the point where almost all majour banks have blockchain technology R&D going on.

blockchain technology are nothing without decentralization, the whole point of blockchain isn't just a digital ledger, i would say to the banks, thanks but no thanks, you can take your centralized blockchain and turn back to fiat

bitcoin is still preferably, no point in making a bad copy of it

I dont think they would centralize it, but they would definitely make some complicated derivative out of it, which would be so complicately coded, that normal peer-review would not detect it, and so they could hide a ponzi scheme in it.

Besides they would instamine it and keep 99% of it between themselves, or just make it with no fixed supply, and a voting system when to issue more of it.

So they would do the same thing as now, but with a decentralized system, which is a bit shadily implemented and contructed, to have a bitcoin appeal to it, when in fact it would be a scam.

It seems you're talking about Ripple. Cheesy

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