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Topic: We can not discuss if 'ChipMixer is a honeypot or not' outside their own thread? (Read 1875 times)

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
Bitcoin isn't dependent solely on centralized mixers, don't generalize like that. We already have wonderful alternatives, Joinmarket, Whirlpool, trading XMR back and forth, and so on. And yes, we also have the option to use a mixer, because sometimes it might fit the need best. If someone wants to run such a business, we should definitely not reject them; it'd be completely against the Bitcoin spirit.

If you don't like mixers, don't use them. Simple as that.

People willing to put a target on Bitcoin, this forum, and their own backs by promoting centralized money laundering services for money aren’t doing some great thing for privacy.
Centralized mixers do put target on Bitcoin, but decentralized solutions which allow money laundering and are not censorable don't. Completely rational. Roll Eyes

Have you ever considered that the intense pursuit by federal authorities to shut down mixers might indicate that they indeed offer uncontrollable privacy? Providing privacy in such a manner is classified as a significant boon for privacy.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
In the case of Mixers, there can't be a "White line", If the mixers do that, then it won't be decentralized, and people won't use them obviously for privacy reasons, I can't think of any solutions for it.

It isn’t decentralized now. That’s my whole point and what those bashing me by saying I’m not making sense don’t seem to understand because they’re blinded by their own greed. If Bitcoin’s privacy depends on centralized run services that result in their founders being jailed, it has failed in providing privacy. The answer is doing it at the protocol level, which must be done after Bitcoin has already been accepted into the existing financial system like a Trojan horse.

People willing to put a target on Bitcoin, this forum, and their own backs by promoting centralized money laundering services for money aren’t doing some great thing for privacy. Them using everything in their power to silence and discredit those that point this out is a whole other issue. One that a strong leader would address.
sr. member
Activity: 1820
Merit: 418
Telegram: @worldofcoinss
I never misappropriated forum funds. That’s ridiculous. The blockchain exists for a reason and you can clearly look and see at the public address I held the funds that they were never touched. This is exactly what I’m talking about. People make up stories and then others believe it without doing any research because the corrupt people spouting lies are assumed to be honest. They aren’t. They’re compromised corrupt individuals that would risk taking down this entire forum to promote money laundering here for money. No need to cast lies at me to deflect from their bad behavior.

No surprise that you’re advertising money laundering in your signature… As are others defending their illegal advertising on this thread by taking shots at me. Why deflect? How does that justify YOUR behavior?

You should consider taking the example of Theymos as to why he only asked staff members to stop promoting mixing services but not the whole forum.

I understand your point here, but theymos simply don't want to take away the rights of individuals as to what they promote.

This forum if goes down due to promoting mixing services, then it will be individuals other than staff members to blame, which again wouldn't matter since the forum will be gone by that time.



All mixing services are evil?:
I guess not. Some strive to deliver what they promise but can't confirm if they are being used to launder the crypto.

In the case of Mixers, there can't be a "White line", If the mixers do that, then it won't be decentralized, and people won't use them obviously for privacy reasons, I can't think of any solutions for it.
legendary
Activity: 1789
Merit: 2535
Goonies never say die.
I don't think the forum should be too concerned. It wasn't that long ago that Bitcoin itself was being called money laundering. At most, I'd guess the forum could get some formal legal request to ban or remove certain things from the site and/or maybe banning any participants that continue to advertise for a particular service which has been deemed illegal by the country the forum is hosted at, but I wouldn't see the forum itself in any big risk, as theymos would probably comply if it is related to advertising. That said, I'm not a lawyer.

I can use my private keys however I want
So does this mean those minted coins you sell don't really belong to the "fans" that buy them?  

They are "your" keys after all, you did create them.. and you seem to have no regrets using private keys for personal gain simply because you created them.. so, based on your logic here, it may be time to sweep my coin and melt the silver (I'm assuming it is silver..). Undecided
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
As for your accusations, I did nothing wrong. I can use my private keys however I want and I lived up to my end of the treasury agreement perfectly. The person who didn’t was theymos, who went years without paying me and then didn’t compensate me for the forked coins I missed out on while I gave him the forked coins I didn’t have to according to our agreement, but who cares about reality right?

This sounds as if you have grounds for a flag and/or red trust on theymos, but instead you have posted a positive trust rating for him.

So you're either lying or lying.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
How does that justify YOUR behavior?

If I had done something wrong I would have to justify my behaviour.  Aside from vague posturing, you haven't stated exactly what it is I should be justifying.  Yes, I have a signature for a mixer, so what?  I believe privacy is a fundamental right and I will support that right wherever I deem it appropriate to do so. 

There's no "story" here.  You pocketed airdrops from coins that did not belong to you.  You're damn lucky theymos didn't particularly care about those assets.  Personally, I'd have had you charged with theft if this were my forum.  So get off your damn high horse and learn to live with the fact that some of us think you're scum.  You brought it upon yourself, so don't cry to us about it.

You are promoting money laundering. If the organization you are promoting does any real volume, they will be closed down and their founders arrested. That is what you’re promoting.

As for your accusations, I did nothing wrong. I can use my private keys however I want and I lived up to my end of the treasury agreement perfectly. The person who didn’t was theymos, who went years without paying me and then didn’t compensate me for the forked coins I missed out on while I gave him the forked coins I didn’t have to according to our agreement, but who cares about reality right?
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 3190
Leave no FUD unchallenged
How does that justify YOUR behavior?

If I had done something wrong I would have to justify my behaviour.  Aside from vague posturing, you haven't stated exactly what it is I should be justifying.  Yes, I have a signature for a mixer, so what?  I believe privacy is a fundamental right and I will support that right wherever I deem it appropriate to do so. 

There's no "story" here.  You pocketed airdrops from coins that did not belong to you.  You're damn lucky theymos didn't particularly care about those assets.  Personally, I'd have had you charged with theft if this were my forum.  So get off your damn high horse and learn to live with the fact that some of us think you're scum.  You brought it upon yourself, so don't cry to us about it.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
That’s called corruption in the real world. Here they call it decentralization. I call it lazy management.

The needle on your moral compass is influenced pretty heavily by all of that hot air coming out of your mouth, isn't it?  

Misappropriation of forum funds?  Og claims not corruption.
Calling out OgNasty on his bullshit?  Og claims corruption.

Yeah, that makes total sense.   Roll Eyes

I never misappropriated forum funds. That’s ridiculous. The blockchain exists for a reason and you can clearly look and see at the public address I held the funds that they were never touched. This is exactly what I’m talking about. People make up stories and then others believe it without doing any research because the corrupt people spouting lies are assumed to be honest. They aren’t. They’re compromised corrupt individuals that would risk taking down this entire forum to promote money laundering here for money. No need to cast lies at me to deflect from their bad behavior.

No surprise that you’re advertising money laundering in your signature… As are others defending their illegal advertising on this thread by taking shots at me. Why deflect? How does that justify YOUR behavior?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
Sure, money laundering can and surely has been perpetrated using mixers, but is there any data showing the relative magnitude of laundering via mixers vs. the traditional way, through fiat-based businesses?
It's extremely difficult to compare, as both by their nature go undetected. However, there have been lots of instances of large banks caught to launder billions.

But, that's not the point. The main concern is that OgNasty morally supports decentralized mixing but opposes centralized mixing[1]. This stance is simply nonsensical, even for someone with lenient ethical standards. You can't oppose software that helps criminals unless nobody is in charge of its operation. What fucked up morals are these? When using a decentralized, pseudonymous, and potentially anonymous currency, one must come to terms with the fact that criminals exploiting it, much like any regular individual, is an inherent aspect of the system.

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.61358824
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6981
Top Crypto Casino
The needle on your moral compass is influenced pretty heavily by all of that hot air coming out of your mouth, isn't it? 

Misappropriation of forum funds?  Og claims not corruption.
Calling out OgNasty on his bullshit?  Og claims corruption.
I didn't want to dredge up all of those past allegations against OgNasty--mainly because I never quite looked into their validity--but that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw that he's railing against the supposed immorality of mixers. 

There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to keep your financial business private, and that includes obscuring your coins.  Sure, money laundering can and surely has been perpetrated using mixers, but is there any data showing the relative magnitude of laundering via mixers vs. the traditional way, through fiat-based businesses?  I get the sense that the latter is much, much more of a problem and that people/organizations with huge sums of money to launder aren't doing it through crypto, and if they are, there's probably fewer of them employing mixers, if only because of the enormous trust issue involved.
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 3190
Leave no FUD unchallenged
That’s called corruption in the real world. Here they call it decentralization. I call it lazy management.

The needle on your moral compass is influenced pretty heavily by all of that hot air coming out of your mouth, isn't it? 

Misappropriation of forum funds?  Og claims not corruption.
Calling out OgNasty on his bullshit?  Og claims corruption.

Yeah, that makes total sense.   Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
Is this forum not concerned that there are still users here promoting mixing services, some of which are in the default trust network and giving exclusions to those who speak out about them promoting money laundering for their own profit?
Can you talk a little bit more specifically? Even though I must admit that you truly fell of my grace when you began making sweeping generalizations and criticizing centralized mixing in that manner (despite expressing support for decentralized mixing, completely contradicting yourself with the former argument).



Do we truly intend to delve into the notion that mixing is ethically incorrect?
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
Staffs were asked to stop advertising mixers and maybe some well recognized, high contributed members of forum who potentially become staffs in future were asked the same too (my guess only), but globally on the whole forum, let's see.

We (staff) were asked to stop advertising mixing services.

Who in particular did you have in mind? (LoyceV maybe for only using his sig-renting thread?)

Pretty much all of us moved on to other campaigns, mostly other mixers, after Chipmixer shut down, but to me it doesn't look like anyone else besides those who were already staff was asked to stop advertising mixers on their signatures.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
No one knows the actual founder of ChipMixer. The wanted person is only a single man and I am really doubtful that he is the founder and the only person who operated CM over years. He is possibly a canary from a whole CM team.

I read through the court documents pretty thoroughly and it appears it was a one-man operation. Funds tied to ChipMixer server payments were traced back to that particular named individual. Its hard to say how much he profited from the service; after all, it was technically free. And he had a separate account on the forum that he used to make trades... from the looks of it he certainly wasn't "wealthy".

Damn this thread. I would still have a lots of BTCs by now if I had not read this thread! My bad decision last year was affected by this thread. Now BTC is too expensive and I can't get enough BTCs as I used to own. I feel so sad each day seeing price of BTC increasing day by day. I would have been a millionaire now if I had not sold most of my portfolio last year when the BTC price was only at 10k - 12k.

sr. member
Activity: 854
Merit: 424
I stand with Ukraine!
With Tornado Cash founders now being charged officially with money laundering and violating sanctions, do people expect to see charges against Chipmixer founders next?
No one knows the actual founder of ChipMixer. The wanted person is only a single man and I am really doubtful that he is the founder and the only person who operated CM over years. He is possibly a canary from a whole CM team.

We (staff) were asked to stop advertising mixing services.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
With Tornado Cash founders now being charged officially with money laundering and violating sanctions, do people expect to see charges against Chipmixer founders next?

He has already been charged and is a wanted man...

Is this forum not concerned that there are still users here promoting mixing services, some of which are in the default trust network and giving exclusions to those who speak out about them promoting money laundering for their own profit?

A proper mixer is just a mixer -- it is ethically neutral. A good mixer is one that does its job as advertised. For the most part (though not 100%), that is what ChipMixer was. Sure, we can get into the weeds of whether or not it is moral to advertise a service that, as part of BAU, launders funds for designated terrorist groups, but its in line with the libertarian ethos of the forum to leave it up to the individual users whether they want to do this or not. I don't see the point in chastising them for this decision, or what it accomplishes.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
With Tornado Cash founders now being charged officially with money laundering and violating sanctions, do people expect to see charges against Chipmixer founders next? Is this forum not concerned that there are still users here promoting mixing services, some of which are in the default trust network and giving exclusions to those who speak out about them promoting money laundering for their own profit?

https://x.com/watcherguru/status/1694390897184502100

Sorry if you feel this is the wrong thread for this discussion, most others remain locked. It is interesting that many users in this thread praised me for foretelling the Chipmixer shut down, but several DT members distrusted me for it. That’s called corruption in the real world. Here they call it decentralization. I call it lazy management.
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 3190
Leave no FUD unchallenged
I foretold everything that happened to chipmixer and as a result of my sounding the warning bells, I received distrust in the DT network from several of their campaign participants. Literally proving the point that this thread was trying to make, which is that if you speak out against chipmixer’s money laundering, you will be retaliated against.

And your assertion is that you are distrusted purely because of your views about ChipMixer?  Regardless, it strikes me as more of an issue for the Reputation board.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
How we reached to talking about members of DT abusing their position, from ChipMixer being a honeypot is something you only know of.

This is literally a thread about why we cannot discuss chipmixer being a honeypot. It’s very relevant. I foretold everything that happened to chipmixer and as a result of my sounding the warning bells, I received distrust in the DT network from several of their campaign participants. Literally proving the point that this thread was trying to make, which is that if you speak out against chipmixer’s money laundering, you will be retaliated against. It’s important that people have this information, and very relevant to this thread.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
Your statement is not objective given you DT distrust me.
It's subjective as it's my opinion. The fact that I distrust you is irrelevant to whether that is objective or not. To put it this way: would it make it objective if I neither trusted or distrusted you?

You have proven you would attempt to silence anyone even discussing the subject of this thread.  Please be respectful.
I think I'm pretty much respectful. I have made this discussion with OgNasty in the past as well, and it lead nowhere as well. When you two take part in a forum discussion, you'll sooner or later blame it to the DT. No surprise he completely ignores the point we're making with centralized and decentralized mixers. He just has personal agenda against some of the ChipMixer campaign participants, and tries to figure out ways to accuse them.

How we reached to talking about members of DT abusing their position, from ChipMixer being a honeypot is something you only know of.
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