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Topic: Who are THEY? Are they Muslim? - page 3. (Read 4276 times)

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 16, 2015, 11:46:01 AM
#54

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

The important thing in religion is salvation.

Translations of the Bible into other languages are just that - translations. There are revisions of translations because the language changes, thereby making a revision necessary to match the current form of the language. The Bible does not change.

Smiley

But what is the 'native' language of the Bible? I have never find an exhaustive answer to this question. You are right, but sometimes in the translation it is lost the 'sense'.

Old Testament is Ancient Hebrew. New Testament is, basically Greek, with a little Aramaic.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 509
I prefer Zakir over Muhammed when mentioning me!
May 16, 2015, 11:44:58 AM
#53
Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

I told that the religionofpeace site spread pure disinformation but I know you won't care as you want to spread hatred.......
Yes. There are verses with disinformation in that site. Islam isn't telling people to spread hatred and violence. That verses were about fighting at that time. There are many lies in that website.

Lies in that website?  Probably are a few somewhere, or at the least, misunderstandings.  Just like there are lies or misunderstandings on this thread about Islam by the faithful of Islam. 

But let's look at the joyous peace of the last couple of days, as reported by www.thereligionofpeace.com.

2015.05.14 (Kojiti, Nigeria) - Boko Haram open fire on families preparing for bed, killing seven members.
2015.05.14 (Benghazi, Libya) - Seven children are among eight killed when the Islamic State fires a rocket into an apartment building.
2015.05.14 (Palmyra, Syria) - Twenty-six villagers are butchered by the Islamic State, including ten beheaded.
2015.05.14 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Nine foreigners are among fourteen people massacred when the Taliban storm a guesthouse.
2015.05.14 (Mbau, DRC) - Twenty-three more villagers are hacked to death with machetes and hatchets by ADF Islamists.
2015.05.12 (Bankalaparha, Bangladesh) - Four fundamentalists hack a secular blogger to death with knives on charges of being an atheist.

I appreciate that they nicely handle the "Big Lie", that Islam is "a religion of peace."

I knew you would post this after I make that post. Like I said, they aren't instructed by Islam, they are doing it for their own political gains and can be seen easily but I don't think you can as you always have biased opinions and already setup your mind.
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1043
#Free market
May 16, 2015, 11:31:49 AM
#52

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

The important thing in religion is salvation.

Translations of the Bible into other languages are just that - translations. There are revisions of translations because the language changes, thereby making a revision necessary to match the current form of the language. The Bible does not change.

Smiley

But what is the 'native' language of the Bible? I have never find an exhaustive answer to this question. You are right, but sometimes in the translation it is lost the 'sense'.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 16, 2015, 11:29:55 AM
#51

I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.

The important thing in religion is salvation.

Translations of the Bible into other languages are just that - translations. There are revisions of translations because the language changes, thereby making a revision necessary to match the current form of the language. The Bible does not change.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1386
May 16, 2015, 11:28:40 AM
#50
....
I remember that one time my teacher said << if we go past in the 1930 or 1950 we will see another Bible version, with more "things", words and concept. >> That makes me to thing "oh wait , there is something wrong here" and someone has removed some parts... and he completed with << I think the Quran is not modified, and if you 'catch' an old version of 100-200 years we will find the same words (except the "layout" and "graphic). >>

This is why my religion teacher said in one of his numerous lessons, ad from that time I started to think and think... and it is not so simple. I do not think it is a question of religion, the unique and important thing must be the respect " if I do not respect you, then I am worth< 0" and also the contrary.
As an atheist who believes the miracles of neither the bible or koran, and who thus has no bone to pick in the fight, I can assure you that what your teacher said was false.  Not an intentional lie, but just something he didn't understand.

If you pick up a bible from 1930 or 1950, the King James edition, it will be exactly the same as one published today.  You can look at the edits from 1610 to 1789 and thence to today.  The details are here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version

It may well be that forums such as this one serve a useful purpose in presentation of facts of this sort.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 16, 2015, 11:24:46 AM
#49
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1043
#Free market
May 16, 2015, 11:21:25 AM
#48
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1386
May 16, 2015, 11:17:20 AM
#47
Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

I told that the religionofpeace site spread pure disinformation but I know you won't care as you want to spread hatred.......
Yes. There are verses with disinformation in that site. Islam isn't telling people to spread hatred and violence. That verses were about fighting at that time. There are many lies in that website.

Lies in that website?  Probably are a few somewhere, or at the least, misunderstandings.  Just like there are lies or misunderstandings on this thread about Islam by the faithful of Islam. 

But let's look at the joyous peace of the last couple of days, as reported by www.thereligionofpeace.com.

2015.05.14 (Kojiti, Nigeria) - Boko Haram open fire on families preparing for bed, killing seven members.
2015.05.14 (Benghazi, Libya) - Seven children are among eight killed when the Islamic State fires a rocket into an apartment building.
2015.05.14 (Palmyra, Syria) - Twenty-six villagers are butchered by the Islamic State, including ten beheaded.
2015.05.14 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Nine foreigners are among fourteen people massacred when the Taliban storm a guesthouse.
2015.05.14 (Mbau, DRC) - Twenty-three more villagers are hacked to death with machetes and hatchets by ADF Islamists.
2015.05.12 (Bankalaparha, Bangladesh) - Four fundamentalists hack a secular blogger to death with knives on charges of being an atheist.

I appreciate that they nicely handle the "Big Lie", that Islam is "a religion of peace."

hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 509
I prefer Zakir over Muhammed when mentioning me!
May 16, 2015, 11:12:43 AM
#46
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 16, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
#45
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 509
I prefer Zakir over Muhammed when mentioning me!
May 16, 2015, 11:05:13 AM
#44
Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:

I told that the religionofpeace site spread pure disinformation but I know you won't care as you want to spread hatred.

Quote
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

See the lie! Muslims were tortured and killed by non-Muslims and they had no choice other than to fight non-Muslims for their persistence. However, if the non-Muslims don't torture Muslims, there is no need to fight them.

Quran 2:192 - “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Quote
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

This verse is about Muslims who were turned out of their homes and families. If you read the verses you can see.

Quran 2:246 - “Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? they said to a prophet (That was) among them: "Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of Allah." He said: "Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?" They said: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?" but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But Allah Has full knowledge of those who do wrong.”
 
Quote
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Wrong. First of all, prophet didn't write Qur'an and secondly, Qur'an wasn't motivating people to kill or fight for nothing. Read the near verses and you will understand.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

Smiley

Yes. There are verses with disinformation in that site. Islam isn't telling people to spread hatred and violence. That verses were about fighting at that time. There are many lies in that website.
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1043
#Free market
May 16, 2015, 10:35:13 AM
#43
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 16, 2015, 10:28:42 AM
#42
Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.


I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).

Most Muslims are probably reasonably peaceful, just like most other people.

The writings of Islam leave a door open for people who are not peaceful. How do Islamic Writings do this? By suggesting that violence is okay at some times, and required at other times. There are many examples listed at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm of violence listed in the Quran and elsewhere in Islamic writings. Here are several, translated:
Quote
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)  The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse).  The word used instead, "fitna",  can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time.  From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Because of these things written in the Quran, there are times when Muslims who do not fight are going against Islam.

Personally, since I am a rather peaceful person, I would not want to be Muslim, simply because there is that in the writings that seem to prescribe fighting and violence, and even hate.

Check the link. There are many other verses with explanation.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1043
#Free market
May 16, 2015, 09:29:55 AM
#41
Another thread about Islam, amazing! We should rename this section in "Islam & Islam" ... 'Politics & Society' is not more appropriate. //  just a little bit of sarcasm, why not.


I think Islam doesn't teach muslim to kill other people and no one of my friend or muslims that I know told me the contrary. So I think they can proclaim themselves muslim, but they are not muslims (in my point of view).
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 16, 2015, 08:49:39 AM
#40
Yeah, the Mayans, Aztecs, Incans...all sacrificed people, even children to their "gods". I just don't see any need for religion in an intelligent society, I don't care what others believe in but when you start killing innocents and children, you and your beliefs should not exist.

Human sacrifice has existed in all the continents (with the exception of Oceania). Even Christian sects have performed human sacrifices in the past. The bible contains multiple references to human sacrifice. And it is ongoing even now, in remote parts of Asia (esp. India) and Africa. I am not sure whether it exists in the Americas or not. The last reported incident occurred in 1960 (José Luis Painecur).

Also, check this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4098172.stm

Back in the 1970s (I believe) there was a National Geographic piece on the Native Americans who live in the mountains in Southern Colorado. Back then they were a very rugged group who did not accept people from the outside. The barely allowed any "white man" schools. The still spoke colonial Spanish from 300 years before.

It was suggested that they still may have done human sacrifice in the areas around the Sangre de Cristo Mountains (which spread into Northern New Mexico) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangre_de_Cristo_Mountains.

The Native Americans have probably been "tamed" by now in most of the areas, but be careful and aware when camping and hiking there.

Smiley

EDIT: http://www.preservationnation.org/magazine/2012/summer/sangre-de-cristo.html
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 1217
May 16, 2015, 08:16:49 AM
#39
Yeah, the Mayans, Aztecs, Incans...all sacrificed people, even children to their "gods". I just don't see any need for religion in an intelligent society, I don't care what others believe in but when you start killing innocents and children, you and your beliefs should not exist.

Human sacrifice has existed in all the continents (with the exception of Oceania). Even Christian sects have performed human sacrifices in the past. The bible contains multiple references to human sacrifice. And it is ongoing even now, in remote parts of Asia (esp. India) and Africa. I am not sure whether it exists in the Americas or not. The last reported incident occurred in 1960 (José Luis Painecur).

Also, check this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4098172.stm
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1007
Sooner or later, a man who wears two faces forgets
May 16, 2015, 03:53:03 AM
#38
Am Sorry, am not a Religious person but i can tell you this- Those who kill innocent for any reason , are nor human and do not belong to any religion.
No they are not muslims , they kill indiscriminately without a purpose or maybe what they call a greater purpose. To hell with their purpose .
I hope they die the worst death imaginable .
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1386
May 15, 2015, 08:11:16 PM
#37
Which religion teaches you to kill other humans who belong to your own religion and to kill children who don't even know the meaning of the word religion?

It's disgusting when people blame a religion for a criminal offense and start indirectly defending these criminals.

Correct. These are mentally retarded people . Humanity comes over any religion whether it is hindu, muslims, christians etc. And no religion teaches to kill other humans and how can one kill the innocent children who were just on journey of life to see how beautiful it is.

Yes they were muslims and no doubt about that. Their religion itself teaches them to do so they are given the special training from their own religion and they brainwashed their mentality towards the society I mean how can one give a training to kill some innocent children and people. Ridiculous.

Historically, though, it certainly has occurred.  What about ritual sacrifices of humans for the gory of God?

South America and Mexico.



Yeah, the Mayans, Aztecs, Incans...all sacrificed people, even children to their "gods". I just don't see any need for religion in an intelligent society, I don't care what others believe in but when you start killing innocents and children, you and your beliefs should not exist.
I will mention one more thing.  Think back to some ancient time of warring kingdoms, with a continual competition to see who could develop the best warriors.  You could motivate them to a degree with propaganda from childhood as to the virtues of bravery, and fearlessness.  I am sure you could shape the society such that women desired such men.  However, these guys were not totally brainwashed - faced with life or death on the battlefield, many knew it was only for the economic betterment and ego of their warlord or king.

HOWEVER ----- train them that there is an AFTERLIFE, in which their rewards are far in excess of their short, brutal existence on Earth, and now you have added a dimension to the battle.  In short, you have a superior fighting force.

Thus I think we could argue that war and violence were strictly the products of religion, rather than they being the bastardized products of the power hungry posing as religion.

Even after framing the actions of ISIS in this manner, though, one should recognize the fact that even "moderate Muslims" such as frequent this forum, seem all appalled by these barbarians.   Success on the battlefield though, does not care if they are appalled.  It only relates to who actually goes and fights, and how.

Regardless, the concept that religion and it's derivative, The Afterlife, is rooted in warlords and kings desire for better fighters, does not single out Islam.  Does it apply to Islam?  Hell yes.  Do we see some in Islam on suicide missions to kill innocent people on their path to glory in the afterlife?  Sure do.

How about that. 
sr. member
Activity: 281
Merit: 250
May 15, 2015, 07:16:12 PM
#36
Which religion teaches you to kill other humans who belong to your own religion and to kill children who don't even know the meaning of the word religion?

It's disgusting when people blame a religion for a criminal offense and start indirectly defending these criminals.

Correct. These are mentally retarded people . Humanity comes over any religion whether it is hindu, muslims, christians etc. And no religion teaches to kill other humans and how can one kill the innocent children who were just on journey of life to see how beautiful it is.

Yes they were muslims and no doubt about that. Their religion itself teaches them to do so they are given the special training from their own religion and they brainwashed their mentality towards the society I mean how can one give a training to kill some innocent children and people. Ridiculous.

Historically, though, it certainly has occurred.  What about ritual sacrifices of humans for the gory of God?

South America and Mexico.



Yeah, the Mayans, Aztecs, Incans...all sacrificed people, even children to their "gods". I just don't see any need for religion in an intelligent society, I don't care what others believe in but when you start killing innocents and children, you and your beliefs should not exist.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1386
May 15, 2015, 06:35:53 PM
#35
Which religion teaches you to kill other humans who belong to your own religion and to kill children who don't even know the meaning of the word religion?

It's disgusting when people blame a religion for a criminal offense and start indirectly defending these criminals.

Correct. These are mentally retarded people . Humanity comes over any religion whether it is hindu, muslims, christians etc. And no religion teaches to kill other humans and how can one kill the innocent children who were just on journey of life to see how beautiful it is.

Yes they were muslims and no doubt about that. Their religion itself teaches them to do so they are given the special training from their own religion and they brainwashed their mentality towards the society I mean how can one give a training to kill some innocent children and people. Ridiculous.

Historically, though, it certainly has occurred.  What about ritual sacrifices of humans for the gory of God?

South America and Mexico.

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