Topic: Why bitcoin mixers are only for criminals - page 3. (Read 727 times)

if you create a topic of this type you will undoubtedly be greeted with many negative posts, but unfortunately the harsh reality will sooner or later be stamped on people's faces. I think the owners of the mixers created the mixers with good intentions, but eventually the criminals took advantage of the mixers. it is enough to see that governments are tough with laws that involve financial services and I do not see any day when we see a mixer being licensed or approved by governments, mixers are condemned to be used by criminals of the worst kind unfortunately the owners of the mixers are not there is a way to stop criminals who use mixers for malefic purposes and the only way out for the future will be the closure of many mixers and the governments will be chasing the owners of the mixers

I've used mixers multiple times and I can assure you  I am neither a criminal nor involved in any kind of illegal activity.
I use mixers because I buy and sell bitcoin regularly and don't want my clients to be linked to each other and because I respect their right to privacy.

Even if we admit you are right and, somehow, we find a way to shut down all mixers, criminals will still have better alternatives to hide their traces such as using coinjoin, privacy coins...

It's very sad that you did not understand the actual purpose of Bitcoin mixers. Real criminals do not need mixers which, by the way, are not that anonymous as you think. Their outcome can often be calculated if you invest some time and energy. They rather use privacy coins.

There are countries in which Bitcoin is banned and since Bitcoin is easy tracable as you already stated, users from those counties often need to add some privacy to do transactions.

If I follow your logic, then all Tor users are criminals too.

I kinda agree with this one since I don't really use crypto or bitcoin mixers probably I guess try some just for curiosity or something, I just can't see the importance of using this crypto mixer.

For me, you don't really need too much privacy that the crypto mixers provide since they can't really know your identity just able to see your transactions if they know your bitcoin address or something, but that was just my opinion because I not some kind of whale, maybe a lot of people are concerned because of the amount of bitcoin they are holding not necessarily because they are some like of criminals.

So it's like a 50/50 for me, maybe we cant see the use of this for now but maybe in the future, we can use this in something that would benefit us.


A good example, I think you have your point, I mean it's up to you if you want to hide your transactions.

Well it is design to clean the track of the crypto so I guess it would really seems like it.
But there are some who would use it ensure that their savings wouldn't be tracked down on their known wallet.
For example my family or friends know my crypto address so they know how to look how much I am holding but I want to keep it hidden to them.

This reminds me a little bit about the argument about torrenting and privacy. We all say "peer-to-peer networking" is for sharing personal files among one another but e all know it's for pirating movies and games and software. I can't think of any reason why you would want to "mix" bitcoin. It is anonymous enough. How very paranoid do you need to be to use mixers? I ask the question why are you so paranoid to begin with? What are you doing that makes you paranoid.

Imagine what would happen if people did some homework and held the Legacy fiat systems to the same standard as Bitcoin?  

Coinbase would be forced to delist the Dollar and all the banks would be shut down.  The amount of death, destruction and crime committed with the USD and all fiat is exponentially higher than Bitcoin (mixers or not).

We can say that all the time but that doesn't discount the fact that mixers can be used for illegal purposes, remember that when there is a chance to abuse a system, people will always take the opportunity to exploit especially if it means that the watchful eye of the law will not be able to find what they are doing. We know that not only criminals are using mixers but are we going to be ignorant to the fact that mixers cater criminals too?

What improvement? Lets just accept that this is one of the con's or things that cant really be avoided on using up services like these on where
criminals would really be taking advantage of this service and blaming off the service isn't really just right but government do really love to target out
these gateways on trying to shut-off money laundering and other criminal fund transfers or whatsoever. How to deal with it?
better to ignore than to stress out yourself.

How do you know this? Any proofs, bro?
Bitcoin or coin mixers are basically created not for criminals, it is intended for people who need more privacy. If there are some criminals who use this service, it doesn't mean this service is created for them but it is one of the weaknesses or negative sides of this service. Then, maybe this mixer service needs more improvement.

If you hit a jackpot in a casino and you want to hide your coins with a mixer service, then are you a criminal?

If you was an early miner and you want to hide your coins with a mixer service, then are you a criminal?

I don't think so... A lot of criminals use the mixing service to hide their coins, but not all the users from the mixers are criminals, you can be sure of that.

It's fascinating how your decision on coin mixers is finite and how you seem to take rulings on arguments @OP.
Your very correct that, the criminals uses this services but, so do users with great concerned over the chain link of there transactions. The services is a need one and someone or group of persons have got to provide them and we find it in the hands of coin mixers.

I'm yet to use the services of coin mixers and i can't completely rule out the fact that, i might one day. I just haven't seen the need as i am okay with my transactions being visible for now.

They don't. In Europe. Simple as that.
Or, if they do, they would have to operate under the jurisdiction and according to the rules of European GDPR right, which would be very difficult indeed, to say the least. I.e., they would have to ascertain anonymization of all processed data etc., which ist (IMHO) practically impossible, but in theory doable.

That those companies operate outside of Europe is trivial, otoh.
Or do you believe for a second that every single country in the world would e.g. respect U.S. law?

In other words, from the point of view of the European Union, when it comes to chainalysis, the US is basically part of the "Axis of Evil".


It is. I've proven it. If you don't understand the proof, just ask.
I fully understand that you as a (likely) Non-EU-citizen may not be familiar with the jurisdiction of the largest economic superpower in the world, and I forgive you

This is not a matter of "who thinks what".
It's a simple fact.
You can look it up in a specific public legal document, which is available in English under
https://gdpr-info.eu
officially published by the (AFAIK) largest legal entity in the world.

Don't trust me, trust the largest body of lawyers in the world.


The belief that Coin Mixing would protect criminals is ridiculous.
The opposite is true.
Right now, using a Mixer usually raises a large, red flag, screaming loudly "look at me, I'm possibly doing something fishy".
That's why I don't believe for a second that any professional criminal would be stupid enough to use a mixer.
That's what they have organized crime in the form of so-called "Banks" for.

Mixers, when used by criminals, are most likely used by kids.
But that's a different story.


Again. As a European citizen, I do not only have the right to use a mixer, I consider it a duty.
Chainalysis, otoh, is absolutely illegal if put to use against a EU citizen.
Which makes every single company which perpetrates the criminal act of chainalysis a part of organized crime.
And that fact is proven by the biggest body of lawyers in the world, underwritten in the legal documents of the largest economic superpower in the world.
Now face it, mere mortal, bow to the superiority of European law

When I talk I like to express my opinions based on facts. You opened a thread stating that mixers are only for criminals and that is your opinion and it cannot be challenged.
I pointed out a research where you can find evidence and data that could even support your arguments but you do not look for a discussion here as you need to put forth your personal agenda. So be it, keep continuing your monologue

When chain analysis would be illegal then those companies won't exists. Simple as that.

And its not in any aspect self defense to mix his coins to protect oneself from a crime. The comparison with deadly self defense is very bad.

And basically nobody cares what you personally think is illegal or not

Prisons also don't care because a drug lord think his threaten illegally because he has only 3 programs on his tv.

So you want to protect every criminal because everyone has his own little reasons. So we should run criminals away with millions in bags because they think it would be illegal to search their bag.

1. Having not even one single address given is something complete different than KYC. I don't think KYC is required up to a specific amount. But at an specific amount range it should be obligation.
2. Cash is going away with technological evolution, so not a very interesting topic. And its a constitutional right in many countries so don't have to worry about that
    Besides that I talked about making fiat to crypto deals, face-to-face.
3. Yes, mixers are not needed because only criminals use them.
4. I've never heard of those two things. I've done some short search and all I know so for is that whirpool is a service and it uses a technology called Conjoin to obfuscate UTXOs. But I can't argue right now about that.
5. Yes, I'm against privacy based altcoins like monero. I've read even the book "Mastering Monero" and the technical part is very fascinating. But monero itself is very dangerous for our world.
    Basically everyone knows it but nobody wants to accept it. Neither the monero community or the devs. Who uses monero for normal transactions? And no merchant is accepting it. Besides some weird punk metal stores.
    Monero is the perfect tool created for criminals. Its the perfect payment method for every criminal. A wet dream of every criminal. Almost 100% transactions on the monero chain are from criminal deals. From drugs to child   porn.
6. Precious metals are goods from planet earth with many thousands year of history, so there's no need to make it illegal. The americans made it illegal in the 30s due to some obvious shadowy reasons but surely not because it was private.

We don't need many different altcoins which divides us.

We need one global transparent instant, fast and secure payment system. For everyone.

Banks won't go. Stop believing that. With the right technology you can only make them better and more honest.

Were not criminals from the street can finance a gun deal or some secret services can finance terror groups.

When you eliminate corruption and make it not possible you solve the problems of the world. Then there is no need to be anxious and saying things like "I need that service to hide my money"

I want a free, safe and secure world. For me, my family and everyone else. Not a world filled with corrupts and criminals which destroy millions of lives every day.

Our world will never be perfect and so will be life. But you can always make yours and the ones of everyone else better and more beautiful. Everyday.

No, that's not the main purpose the mixer was made for. You just have to admit that there is another important purpose about the creation of this service and I think you already know that. Mixer is designed for those who really care about privacy and it would still be justifiable to say that a mixer can help criminal disguise their transaction using a mixer. I can't blame fiat just for being used for criminal acts, and I can't blame guns just for being used by muggers and murderers. The service is not to be blamed for just allowing it to be used for bad, it is purely the fault of the users of that service.

Some people will not have option, some people will use p2p but because they still just want to have more privacy, they will still make use of mixers.

Then mixers should not be seen as a criminal tool, if you do, you are thinking one side. Okay, see this scenario, some people saying  bitcoin used in terrorism financing and money laundering, but before bitcoin were deadly terrorists, money launderers and other criminal activities fiats are used for. The people will not blame it on fiat, then why blaming it on bitcoin which is just for digital asset and money sake. Mixers also are for privacy sake but criminals will find their ways into something good, that is why there are many corrupt counties that have many government officials that embezzle their fiat currencies, are such government officials not criminals, they are. 

You can not blame on them.

Did you know the history or Nobel prize and the career of Alfred Nobel ^[1]. You can not blame on him when you see terrorists use gun, gun power to kill innocent people. It is not the fault from Nobel, never.

Mixers are the same. They give users privacy but they are opened for anyone on the planet to use. You can use them or ignore/ reject them. It is your decision.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Nobel

As you don't seem to understand the given argument, or might not have noticed it, I would like to reiterate.

Mixing is the only defense against the criminal act of chainalysis.
The legality of chainalysis is probably highly dependent upon your local jurisdiction, but as a European citizen, European law applies to my personal actions and also to the actions of foreign actors against me.
Which is why chainalysis that affects me is a crime.
And in fact, all chainalysis affects me.

Defending against a crime is not a crime in and of itself.
Even acts that may be considered criminal under different circumstances lose their status of illegality once they are committed in self-defense.

E.g. the use of lethal violence against another natural person is usually a crime.
In self-defense, it is not.

Therefore, for the approximately 450 Million EU citizens, mixing is not a crime, because chainalysis is in fact done against every single transaction on the Bitcoin network at any given point in time, which makes every single European Bitcoin user the victim of a criminal act, against which defense is legal.

For a European, mixing is most likely not only not a crime, it's a duty.
Defense against foreign criminal acts committed against the total of all Europeans is the legal basis for things like universal conscription, military expenses etc. pp.

In other words: Fellow European, I want you to mix your coins!