Topic: Why bitcoin mixers are only for criminals - page 4. (Read 727 times)

So according to your thoughts, we should:

Have no exchanges that don't have KYC.
No cash so we can't do face to face transactions.
No mixers because only criminals use them.
No services like whirlpool / conjoin for the same reason.
No privacy based altcions.
No precious metals because I could give someone gold / silver / rhodium or any bar of metal which is untraceable.

You must want a very bleak and depressing world or are just work for a bank who sees competition and is panicking.

-Dave
 

This topic is about coin mixers. You just wasted time posting about something which is completely unrelated to this topic. Looks like you didn't even read the title of this post carefully.

But your right. There's way more criminal activities with fiat (digital only - without cash) done than with all crypto currencies together.

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This topic is a about coin mixers and not digital currencies in general. Please read before post.

Doing crime on bitcoin or other transparent blockchain is not very smart. Thousands of high criminals using bitcoin got busted. In the future it will be impossible.

And laws will come to digital currencies worldwide. The longer they are without laws the more they are in danger.

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Problem is bitcoin mixers are obvious created by criminals and used by criminals.

The same with an child porn forum or an drug cartel. You don't hire drug cartel members to cut your garden. So the kitchen knife analogy doesn't work.

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Besides that the current topic here is coin mixers. Not any of these three are providing legal information on their website which makes it very dubious.

Swap exchanges of course have another use case. Simply swap your current crypto into another of your desire. Which of course is not only used by criminals.

But the use cases here for criminals are very high. Swapping to other coins and destroy the trace to the old coins which came from illegal deals. Hold that coin or simply swap it back to the old one on another swap exchange.

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You just said it yourself. According to the current law in your country you are a criminal. So I'm still right with my claim that coin mixers are only used by criminals.

I personally don't see you as a criminal at all. And almost everyone else wouldn't to so also. But your government does. And they control the country your currently living in.

Of course making owning bitcoin a crime is not acceptable. Looks like your government doesn't sees the high potential and benefits of its underlying technology. Or doesn't want to see it.

I hope the situation in your country gets better.

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That's not an counterargument at all. Its so bad that I won't even go into it. Rethink

Buying crypto with fiat in person is a very bad idea in any aspect. So that's your fault. And why should they stalk you, sit all day in front of the computer and watch your transaction on block explorers without any clues where your sending your money to and for what reason. The most unrealistic scenario I've ever heard off. 

Privacy is not a criminal tool. As already someone stated here its dangerous to see it that people are using and abuse it for making crime or even judging their crimes.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

cryptocurrencies are too widespread in this world. We've even seen some gambling projects, adult content, and drug trafficking that provide them in the form of crypto tokens. I think it's very difficult to get rid of because crypto has no laws in the world. We can only avoid such use to not support crime.

It is ridiculous to claim that Bitcoin mixers are mostly used by criminals. I am not a criminal and I have used various Bitcoin mixers multiple times to protect my anonymity. Here in India, the government is considering to ban the possession of Bitcoin and make the ownership of BTC a criminal offense. So I regularly use Bitcoin mixers to keep my anonymity intact. Does that makes me a criminal? And I am sure that there are a lot of people like me, who are forced to use Bitcoin mixers.

Regarding the problem of Bitcoin mixers, it has often been discussed, in the end it is returned to ourselves to see from which point of view.
Because for me it is not wise to blame the mixers service without any evidence, because until now I have not found evidence that coin mixers
are only used for criminals. Or we can use the kitchen knife analogy, which was created for cooking. But for criminals it can be used to kill.
So in the end it depends on the user, if used for good things, of course Bitcoin mixers will be good. Likewise if used for bad things,
of course Bitcoin mixers are going to be bad.

If mixers were to go public and shut down their operations on scammers/illegal entities then it will defeat the purpose in the first place, I don't see the point that people are trying to defend mixers because it is true that they are used for such illegal activities, denying it would be looking the other way. I support the privacy of each individual but if that privacy is being used as an excuse to commit crimes, I think that I wouldn't mind having my privacy taken away, better that there are less crimes.

And lets face it, I know I have said it before, mixers are for people who don't want to go through the time & effort of hiding their coins themselves.

What I posted before.


Saying that mixers are designed / used by and for criminals just shows that you do not understand how crypto works or how to do things.
There are also the exchanges that do not require any form of registration such as https://changehero.io/ or https://flyp.me/en/#/ or https://coinswitch.co/
So are exchanges only for criminals too? How about any of the services that have face to face for cash trades (bisq) are they for criminals?


-Dave

This is probably the biggest fallacy of this age, if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear they say, and as such you need to reveal everything about yourself to everyone all the time, it is a ridiculous notion but thanks to social media that is the current paradigm in which we are.

We can use clothes as an example, clothes are not only a way to protect ourselves from the elements or a fashion statement, clothes are also a form of privacy, people decide with their clothing how much of their body they want to show and whether this is a lot or a little it is up to them to decide what level of privacy they wan to use, mixers are the same, there are people that do not care and as such they avoid mixers but there are those that may like to obtain more privacy without doing anything wrong and they use mixers, both postures are right and to try to demonize one or the other is wrong.

Are these kind of topic is a never ending one? We cant really deny on what are the things would be covered on when using up mixers this is why this business does really have some
negative image by the government because of the essence on making those transactions even way more anonymous.

We cant deny that this could really be used on that way or for that purpose but we cant deny the fact that there are people whom do make use of this service to erase up their
tracks or having completely anonymous for their own personal reason.

It isnt really needed for you to be criminal or some sort for you to make use because minding your own privacy and anonymity will really
be having these considerations.

I want to use a mixer in the near future for these reasons.

We know that Bitcoin transactions are not 100% anonymous, mixers add that
extra feature for legitimate reasons and benefits.

Criminals and scammers can use Bitcoin but we dont like the narrative of banning
the use of Bitcoin.


This is shocking, good sleuthing DooMAD

OP is likely just jealous because most mixers don't bother supporting their worthless forkcoin.  You know, the one that likes to pretend it's compliant with regulatory bodies when it actually isn't.  


For someone who vocally supports one of the shadiest criminals on the face of the planet, you're not really in a position to take the moral high-ground here.  

*Where do you get this data, whether it's accurate...
there may be a lot of criminals who use mixers to trick and make them anonymous, but there are also those who deliberately use mixers because they prioritize privacy. without accurate data, this just sounds like slander.

Simplest counterargument: by using fiat, you're supporting terrorism because terrorists are using it.

I've used mixers so that someone who's given me BTC loses its track. Imagine you've purchased $100 worth of BTC from a stranger and they suddenly start stalking you. They've got your entire immutable and undeniable history of all your txs since your purchase.

I've used mixers so that older addresses of mine don't get correlated with new ones. Who knows what kind of info those 2013 BTC accounts of mine held.

I just don't want my personal space invaded. Period. The fact that privacy is now considered to be a criminal's tool is sad.

Coin mixers being able to operate publicly is a sign that the Bitcoin economy has a way to go to see legitimacy. Of course coin mixers assist scammers as their purpose is literally to launder money. I’m sure at some point these operations will be shut down, have their funds confiscated, and likely their owners jailed. You would have to be borderline insane to try and operate one without being anonymous and even more insane to lend them BTC to try and earn a return.

Much has been said above.  I am adding this post to effectively "vote" in response.  I have been in BTC almost from the beginning.  I have never committed a crime where I could be arrested in my country so I am not hiding coins for that reason.  I simply demand anonymous/private coin storage for my BTC.  I don't want anyone to know I have coins or even know what they are.  With that in mind I can tell you honestly that I don't own any BTC that hasn't gone through multiple mixers - not one single SAT even.  I believe that BTC will be at least 100K by the end of 2021 (I know its my feeling) so the thought of someone, even simply my Gov't, being aware I have a stash of coins would frankly be DANGEROUS to my person.  For a criminal to approach a known BTC holder and say transfer coins to me or die - how easy would that be?  No thanks!

According to a Chainalysis report a tiny amount of around 1% of transactions can fall under criminal activity.
In 2019, illicit activity represented 2.1% of all cryptocurrency transaction volume or roughly $21.4 billion worth of transfers. In 2020, the illicit share of all cryptocurrency activity fell to just 0.34%, or $10.0 billion in transaction volume. One reason the percentage of illicit activity fell is because overall economic activity nearly tripled between 2019 and 2020. 
So a tiny minority uses cryptocurrency in an illicit way, while an outstanding majority play mostly by the rules.
What is the matter then?
https://go.chainalysis.com/2021-Crypto-Crime-Report.html

Prove it. Prove that mixers are used only by criminals and nobody else benefits from them.
In the modern world it's you who has to prove that somebody is guilty, you know that, right?
And when you'll actually attempt to do that you'll understand how wrong you are and how pointless this (yet again) topic is.

Unnecessary beginning.


How do you want to know if I won a large sum of bitcoin? Some kind of magic guy?


These ads are run for profit. Otherwise this forum is so poor that it has to accept money from criminals.


Its not false. Otherwise I would say something else. Reading is hard....


Very bad and blank statement. Why should people care about my transactions. If your parents are hiring chain analysis then I'm sorry for your childhood. And bitcoin is designed to be transparent, read the goddamn whitepaper.


Every country in this world requires legal specification on a website. Except private forums etc. But business related its required.

And you need legal documents to run financial institution. I don't want to know where your from...


So you just lie to your own arguments. Your saying people want to hide it because they don't want to know everyone that they own that much etc. But at the same time your saying bitcoin address is enough obfuscation. So for other people its not but for iranian it is?
Looks like you never learned or saw how to argument.


I just quoted in a post that I make an additional post about XMR. Already nervos Besides that the post is about mixers. And not about xmr, the church or war.


Think again, then post. Dude....


In the style of your answer and posting, I'm assuming your maybe 15-16 years old. You made an very unfunny and dumb comment without going into my arguments with which I literally refute all the argument of this guy.


I just said to the guy how to the current state of bitcoin related in the underground world is. I don't get your whole comment not at all. Learn thinking.


Thats like saying you should fight murders because they will exists always anyway. Baddest comment ever heard.

And its not smart to out yourself as an darknet criminal.

This discussion already happened 100's of times. Do people have to debunk this again?

Oh well I'll just do that myself and save everyone the trouble.


Wrong.

Have you ever thought that they can be used to hide money from criminals? If you win a large amount of BTC and want to move it somewhere where people won't harass and extort you for it then you'd use a mixer.


No, they are supporting the groups they want to support and they each have their reasons for them.

Each person will give you a different answer to this question and it's wrong to generalize that everyone using or advertising a mixer somehow whether through a site, ad or just an informal vouch is supporting criminals because if you take the time to ask each of them one by one you will eventually find out that people don't actually support criminals at all. If you ask me for example it's because I support people's right to hide their own money - which others don't have the right to see in the first place.
 


You definitely know the underlined part is false but maybe you won't admit it?  


This is basically saying that everybody is entitled to see where everybody else's money is and where they send it too. By contrast I don't think you would agree to let random people know where or what you spend your cash on, after all it's none of their business  


Sorry but "legal" is a subjective word that means different things to people/countries/entities. What is legal in one country may not be legal in another and also may not feel legal to you either. But each has their own definition of what is legal and you can't change that.

"...are illegal only alone by the fact that they are not even a company or anything" is utter bollocks because you don't have to have a legal document and registered company to offer services in bitcoin or even cash.

By the way, you may want to retract that underlined part because the scam brokers use fake "The Company's House" addresses in the UK, it takes like 5 minutes to cross check and verify that they don't actually exist.


I'm glad you know that too because literally no one in Iran who earns bitcoin honestly has to mix it to hide it from governments, the very fact it's in a bitcoin address provides enough obfuscation  


Dude, are you aware that most of darknet markets use only Monero?

Why not fume about that instead?


Your second sentence completely contradicts the first, by this logic a judge will charge the criminal who used the mixer not the mixer operators.


I think you are the only person in this entire thread who thinks that  


Yeah, only thiefs whose intention is to steal bitcoin will use bitcoin, have you ever thought of that and how it's completely misaligned with your criticism of mixers? One would think you'd be criticizing the thieves, gangsters, rapists who use bitcoin but instead of challenging the enabler, you've succumbed to... attacking a defenseless industry?

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I want to feel bad for people crusading against bitcoin mixers because even if they all disappear their effort is wasted; most of the entire darknet has moved to XMR, but I don't. Maybe it's because I just don't care about them anymore. But one thing's for sure I was definitely not paid to debunk this.

You're welcome.  

Cyber criminals still use bitcoin, because its still the most used currency in the darknet (for whatever reason) and the most easy to use coin for ransomware (most known and easiest to get for ransomware victims). New ones started using XMR and its getting started more popular in the underworld. XMR would be worth an additional post   Again something almost only used by criminals (99%).