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Topic: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? - page 21. (Read 38029 times)

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
At the time of the cap's creation, the proportion of avg. block size to block size limit was over 1 MILLION. So today to keep the proportions, the proper block size limit should be around 1 GB.

lol, the gigabyte man. Is this your scaling proposal? You could code that up yourself, you should do it.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Sorry. No arguments, not answering this.

Yup - "weak punk" as I thought.

If you want to "grow a pair" then challenge me.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
At the time of the cap's creation, the proportion of avg. block size to block size limit was over 1 MILLION. So today to keep the proportions, the proper block size limit should be around 1 GB.
Who the fuck put *you in charge*?
(that's right - no-one so stop trying to tell everyone what the rules should be)
Sorry. No arguments, not answering this.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Can't stand it, can you ?

So - such a coward you won't agree to a BTC challenge.

(seriously you are the kind of weak punk I eat for breakfast)
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
While I cannot eliminate the possibility that certain Core devs working for Blockstream may indeed share a vision with their employer as to what Bitcoin's future would be
Hahahaha.

That's a nice downplaying manipulation right there.

Actually most of prominent Bitcoin Core devs also work for Blockstream:
Adam Back
Gregory Maxwell
Luke-Jr
Matt Corallo
Pieter Wuille
Peter Todd


Misattributing one dev as a Blockstream employee is understandable, but two at the same time, is probably too coincidental. Roll Eyes

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
This day just gets better and better.
How about we set up two BTC addresses to work this out - either support or reject?
(you are just an annoying troll)
Much worse.

I am an annoying troll with logic & arguments.

Can't stand it, can you ?
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
At the time of the cap's creation, the proportion of avg. block size to block size limit was over 1 MILLION. So today to keep the proportions, the proper block size limit should be around 1 GB.

Who the fuck put *you in charge*?

(that's right - no-one so stop trying to tell everyone what the rules should be)
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
The consensus is to respect the Satoshi's 1MB cap for now.
The 1MB cap is a completely irrelevant temporary thing, which Satoshi clearly stated.

At the time of the cap's creation, the proportion of avg. block size to block size limit was over 1 MILLION. So today to keep the proportions, the proper block size limit should be around 1 GB.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
The 2nd half of the Scaling Bitcoin conference was China, where many photos were taken of the world's biggest miners sharing a stage.  So I don't see how Chinese Bitcoiners have "little say in the matter" of scaling.
But as one of the Chinese panelists said at the event, they felt like merely an audience who are asked to sit there to choose between options given to them.
The development is open, everyone with a github account can contribute.  Actually, you can get pretty far even without a github account.  The rest have to choose between options, or not even that.  The miners are free to hardfork if they want to.  A hardfork will just create a new altcoin. which some users may be interested in.  As long as there are some users mining and using standard Bitcoin, standard Bitcoin will live on in parallel.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
This day just gets better and better.

Let's see - how many people support @ShadowOfHarbringer?

How about we set up two BTC addresses to work this out - either support or reject?

(you are just an annoying troll)
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
The point (that you can clearly see) is that China doesn't need a "new payment network".

It won't offer anything better than is already available (and has been for years).
I don't care what's best for China, I care what is the best for Bitcoin.

And what is the best for Bitcoin is also best for China.

BTW,
Notice it - the guy changed topic again. This may be a manipulative tactic used in order to water down the discussion.
sr. member
Activity: 687
Merit: 269
The consensus is to respect the Satoshi's 1MB cap for now. Maybe in 2018 or 2019 we can discuss the hard fork.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
And Wechat payment, geez, these days people just throw red envelopes back and forth as a way of messaging, try to beat that tps.  Roll Eyes Albeit tencent can't even achieve internal database consistency IIRC.

The point (that you can clearly see) is that China doesn't need a "new payment network".

It won't offer anything better than is already available (and has been for years).
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
Anyway, I don't really care about your opinion.

When you learn to grow up and be more polite then I might bother to give a fuck about anything more that you post but for now I am putting you on "ignore"
This day just gets better and better.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
While I cannot eliminate the possibility that certain Core devs working for Blockstream may indeed share a vision with their employer as to what Bitcoin's future would be
Hahahaha.

That's a nice downplaying manipulation right there.

Actually most of prominent Bitcoin Core devs also work for Blockstream:
Adam Back
Gregory Maxwell
Luke-Jr
Matt Corallo
Pieter Wuille
Peter Todd - EDIT: incorrect, my mistake

That's not all - people above are actually the founders of Blockstream & whole lightning concept.

Just a reminder, Adam Back, president of blockstream openly condones censorship:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hbpg0/adam_back_openly_shows_his_agreeableness_to/
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hbpg0/adam_back_openly_shows_his_agreeableness_to/

Gregory Maxwell also condones censorship:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/42vqyq/blockstream_core_dev_greg_maxwell_still_doesnt/

And he is a manipulative lying bastard, proof:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/438udm/greg_maxwell_caught_red_handed_playing_dirty_to/

And he openly supports attacking competing projects:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41c1h6/greg_maxwell_unullc_just_drove_the_final_nail/

...which Adam Back also does. He really likes sabotage, that one:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncensored/comments/3hc4nu/adam_back_openly_shows_his_agreeableness_to/

The arguments provided above should be enough for anybody to abolish Bitcoin Core forever. But there is of course much, much, much more from last year.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
For some, it is that Bitcoin will continue to function as a payment network for individual users rather than a settlement network where only large transactions can be processed cost-efficiently.

I would like to know why that is perceived to be an issue (especially in China when you have payment networks that work instantly with almost no fees already)?

(such as Alipay, QQ, etc.)


And Wechat payment, geez, these days people just throw red envelopes back and forth as a way of messaging, try to beat that tps.  Roll Eyes Albeit tencent can't even achieve internal database consistency IIRC.
sr. member
Activity: 258
Merit: 250
Overall, there seems to be a sense of helplessness. Some reflected on why the Chinese had so little say in the matter and some urge that the Chinese should form their own core development team and create their own fork.

Hi Eric,

What do you think about the Classic implementation? What does chinese miners think about it?

Many Chinese Bitcoiners - not only miners, but also exchanges and wallet services, originally supported Classic for its support of 2MB block size, but after meeting Jeff Garzik in Beijing, many backtracked because they didn't believe that the team behind is capable or there is a roadmap.

https://github.com/gavinandresen/bips/blob/92e1efd0493c1cbde47304c9711f13f413cc9099/bip-bump2mb.mediawiki
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4342u3/bip_block_size_increase_to_2mb_gavinandresenbips/


Hi Eric,

I recognize that a conservative approach is important and from your viewpoint, neither Classic nor Core is respecting this need. That being said, sometimes it helps frame and shape a discussion if you can elaborate as to what is meant by a conservative approach. Specifically, it seems like there may be, generally speaking, miner consensus for a block size increase sooner rather than later and with a hard fork. It seems additionally, that this method may be more acceptable due to the unknown effects of segwit. Is this a correct assessment? Assuming that is so, is your concern then specifically relating to the activation mechanism? What do you mean by a conservative approach?

I think you are asking the right questions; questions that many members also share and wonder about. It is difficult to tell who is telling the truth, there version of the truth, and what interests that viewpoint represents. As miners have their own interests, I think it is imperative, if not a necessity, for miners to have developers representing their interest. It would be very sensible to partner with either known western developers or for the creation of your own team.

Additionally, I think it can help examine the bitcoin project when you look at it as an outsider or if you look at it from the view of a university group student project. Some people, in such a project, may have the goal of getting things done as soon as possible to go home and watch tv, others just want to impress the pretty object of their affection in the group(a cute girl/guy/dog/cat), and others may want a solid grade, and some will accept nothing but the best grade. Sometimes you have groups split up to handle different portions of the project and maybe the work is not up to your own personal standards but could be satisfactory to other members of the group. These projects require the ability to collaborate, to work together, to negotiate, and to most importantly, compromise to create a finished project. I think when choosing who you want to work with and whether the project will ultimately be successful, I think you need people who are will to compromise. Otherwise the project turns into US politics where nothing ever happens because no one will work with each other.

If you were to form a mining developer team, do you have an idea as to what your goals would be? It seems like you there had been miner suggestion of a third alternative, neither classic nor core, but intead mining code with  95% consensus HF for a 2mb increase, remove RBF, and segwit testing possibly a year down the road?

Thank you for your time concerning this matter.

-Tomothy
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Anyway, I don't really care about your opinion.

When you learn to grow up and be more polite then I might bother to give a fuck about anything more that you post but for now I am putting you on "ignore" as you come across as just a stupid troll to me.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Just check Adam Back's (Blockstream's President) twitter profile. The guy thinks he actually invented Bitcoin !

According to the his twitter profile, Adam Back actually thinks that he invented Hashcash (and Bitcoin built upon the previous work).

This is almost certainly true, given that Hashcash is one of only eight references provided by Satoshi in Bitcoin's whitepaper.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

As long as we're revisiting Bitcoin's Golden Age, let's consider the implications of Gavin having never been sold on the 'digital gold' narrative and preferring the 'fancy Visa' meme instead.

I plan on using Bitcoins as a convenient, very-low-cost means of exchange.

I don't plan on saving a significant number of Bitcoins as a store of value.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000

I hope this has provided some useful food for thought-- but really, what I think is missing is your thoughts. What requirements do you feel aren't being met by Core that would leave you asking such a question? (I could guess, but communication is much better than guessing.)



Some expressed the view that while SigWit has its potential, it is something never been tried before, therefore should be given more time for thorougher test; worse, some felt that it represents a development that has deviated from Satoshi's vision and eventually, led to increased complexity of the protocol to such degree that it would be forbidding to most startups.

BR,

Eric

Eric, Segwit is crucial to the development of Bitcoin for many important reasons, other than the size benefit, two of them(both cannot be resolved without Segwit) being fixing malleability issue and much faster signature verification(which is also vital to future block size increase), I am sure you understand the importance of both as a wallet provider.

Quote

Overall, there seems to be a sense of helplessness. Some reflected on why the Chinese had so little say in the matter and some urge that the Chinese should form their own core development team and create their own fork.
Let me know what you think as always.


Frankly that's why I believe the Chinese should not buy into the rhetoric of Bitcoin Classic developers, who clearly have a political agenda(in addition to the absymal record in development of many among them), and supported by people with questionable motives, as Toomim openly acknowledged in the Chinese miners Wechat group.

You might think that choosing Classic over Core is the best option to get a short-term block size expansion, but Classic's plan doesn't stop here, they also intend to decide changes to the code by popular vote: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/master...bitcoinclassic:master , within an environment clearly to the disadvantage of users and businesses in China and many other nations, it's not hard to imagine what most of the outcomes of such votes would be-representing only the opinion of English speaking Bitcoiners, even if we neglect all the technical reasons why it's an amusingly bad idea.

While I cannot eliminate the possibility that certain Core devs working for Blockstream may indeed share a vision with their employer as to what Bitcoin's future would be, the consciousness they have thus far displayed, I believe, is in alignment with the general interest of Chinese Bitcoiners, e.g., one of the most important reasons why Core devs oppose to a rash block size increase is the network connectivity problem of people living in China, and Blockstream is, as far as I know, the only company with both the technical expertise and willingness to work on some of the best solutions to the problem: weak blocks and IBLT, and they are working on it. In contrast with this is Classic devs' clear lack of long term sustainable plan to the block size problem, what if 2 MB blocks are filled up again, do we just double it every year, ad infinitum? I am sure you understand that this is unsustainable.

Also, if it's possible for such a political fork to take place, it would set a very bad precedent, as any interest group can possibly pay some developers to create a campaign to further split the network, by tweaking with some block parameters, for example, imagine some developers try to appeal to the interest of gamers with high-end GPUs by promising them a change of PoW function, under the banner of "re-decentralizing" the network, in which case the miners' opinion would not even matter to them. After all, it never costs much to pay for an army of shills to flood the online discussion forums to create a superficial "economic majority", like what we are seeing now, and economically heavy Western Bitcoin exchanges and payment processors certainly have never liked Chinese miners and would, probably never try to stop such a motion if it's indeed put forth.


I am not a Core dev and I could not speak for them, my personal suggestion would be: wait for Segwit to roll out, and if anything goes wrong with it, or the blocks are filling up again, we can push them harder for a block size raise, while wait for weak blocks and IBLT to be implemented, at which time they would have no further excuse, and it would be the moment of truth when we understand if they are truly sincere or not.  Smiley
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