WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds - page 12.

becoin

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Quote from: cosmicone on January 17, 2013, 09:36:55 AM

.. we almost always lose a little in the conversion as CC rates always include their cut.

Sure. This is why I have a contract signed with my credit card issuer, to control how much I lose in such conversions. If I purchase USD priced products the credit card issuing bank (My Bank running my account in CAD) is doing the conversion for me and is sending USD to the US-based merchant. The TRANSACTION currency is the USD. This is why the refund is in USD, as this is the TRANSACTION currency!

The above is in total contrast to what BFL are doing. BFL customers do not have anything to do with BitPay. They don't have any contract signed with BitPay. On the contrary, this is BFL that is having a contract signed with BitPay. BitPay is doing the conversion on behalf of BFL and of course BFL have the full control when and what % of the received bitcoins they want converted!

By insisting that bitcoin payments should be refunded in fiat currencies you are actually compromising the future of bitcoins. No one will be willing to pay in bitcoins or lend in bitcoins as they risk getting a refund or a redemption that is only a fraction of what they have paid a month, a year, or a decade ago!

flower1024

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Quote from: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:35:55 AM

Quote from: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 09:19:56 AM

Using BTC with an Exchange
by BFL_Jody , 01-17-2013

If I wanted to use BTC Exchange I would have gone to MtGox. If I wanted to buy dollars certainly, I would have done this. But strangely, I wanted to buy an ASIC. At that time BFL seemed a good idea to me. So, I bought an ASIC. Not to BFL's stance... They claim they sold me dollars!

no they sold you a product nominated in USD.
you just used btc to purchase it.
same would happen if you buy a product nominated in EUR but paid in USD.

tbcoin

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cosmicone

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This is no different than any exchange... My company makes purchases from the USA all the time, so we pay in CAD, which is converted to USD. If there is a return, we get USD back, which is then converted into CAD.. we almost always lose a little in the conversion as CC rates always include their cut.

As much as it sucks for the consumer, it's just how it is... I mean what if BTC had dropped... would there be any complaints about getting your USD refund? No.

becoin

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Quote from: tbcoin on January 17, 2013, 09:19:56 AM

Using BTC with an Exchange
by BFL_Jody , 01-17-2013

If I wanted to use BTC Exchange I would have gone to MtGox. If I wanted to buy dollars certainly, I would have done this. But strangely, I wanted to buy an ASIC. At that time BFL seemed a good idea to me. So, I bought an ASIC. Not to BFL's stance... They claim they sold me dollars!

Grinder

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Quote from: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:13:08 AM

However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars!

I never thought I would defend BFL, but this is where you are exactly wrong. Once you understand that (which unfortunately seems unlikely), it will all make sense.

tbcoin

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https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/66-using-btc-exchange.html

Quote

Using BTC with an Exchange
by BFL_Jody , 01-17-2013

If you are going to use BTC you need to understand how an exchange works. Many of you have chosen to use the BitPay option on our order page. Our products are offered for a USD price. BitPay takes your BTC, exchanges them for USD AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends us your payment. If you ask for a refund, BitPay takes the dollars back from us, converts them back to BTC AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends you the BTC. So if the exchange rate changes between the time you make your purchase and the time you get your refund, you will get a different amount back than you paid in.

I feel bad when our customers think we are cheating them because BTC has increased in value.

Exception

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Quote from: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:13:08 AM

Quote from: davout on January 17, 2013, 09:05:06 AM

Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.

Of course, they CAN! However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars! I gave them bitcoins, not dollars! They MUST settle this debt AT CURRENT bitcoin/$ rate, not at the rate that was months ago!

I'm fairly new to the bitcoin community and seeing people like this make me fear for its future.

flower1024

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Quote from: becoin on January 17, 2013, 09:17:06 AM

Quote from: SLok on January 17, 2013, 09:11:29 AM

BFL's stance:

BFL' stance is different from MY stance. I'm right. They are wrong.

LOL
at least you are funny Wink

becoin

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Quote from: SLok on January 17, 2013, 09:11:29 AM

BFL's stance:

BFL' stance is different from MY stance. I'm right. They are wrong.

becoin

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Quote from: davout on January 17, 2013, 09:05:06 AM

Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.

Of course, they CAN! However, their debt is denominated in bitcoins, not in dollars! I gave them bitcoins, not dollars! They MUST settle this debt AT CURRENT bitcoin/$ rate, not at the rate that was months ago!

SLok

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BFL's stance:

"If you are going to use BTC you need to understand how an exchange works. Many of you have chosen to use the BitPay option on our order page. Our products are offered for a USD price. BitPay takes your BTC, exchanges them for USD AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends us your payment. If you ask for a refund, BitPay takes the dollars back from us, converts them back to BTC AT THE CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE and sends you the BTC. So if the exchange rate changes between the time you make your purchase and the time you get your refund, you will get a different amount back than you paid in."

What of the above is to hard to understand? Would you have cried so hard for bitcoins if the exchange rate would now be $2?
Thank Forum for the ignore button, good riddance to bad rubbish.

davout

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1davout

Quote from: becoin on January 17, 2013, 08:59:24 AM

Quote from: Photon939 on January 17, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back.

They received bitcoins, not dollars. I can not send dollars to the bitcoin address they've specified on their invoce.

It is entirely up to BFL what service they'll use to receive bitcoin payments. I have no control what they do once they get my bitcoins. If they decide to use Vatican to receive my bitcoins, will I get back a Bible for refund?

Legal tender laws in the US = private debt can always be settled in USD.

cedivad

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Quote from: becoin on January 17, 2013, 08:59:24 AM

Quote from: Photon939 on January 17, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back.

They received bitcoins, not dollars. I can not send dollars to the bitcoin address they've specified on their invoce.

It is entirely up to BFL what service they'll use to receive bitcoin payments. I have no control what they do once they get my bitcoins. If they decide to use Vatican to receive my bitcoins, will I get back a Bible for refund?

becoin

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Quote from: Photon939 on January 17, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back.

They received bitcoins, not dollars. I can not send dollars to the bitcoin address they've specified on their invoce.

It is entirely up to BFL what service they'll use to receive bitcoin payments. I have no control what they do once they get my bitcoins. If they decide to use Vatican to receive my bitcoins, will I get back a Bible for refund?

DobZombie

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Former curator of The Bitcoin Museum

Quote from: becoin on January 17, 2013, 08:22:06 AM

Obviously, they don't have enough bitcoins and are processing only partial refunds. They have speculated and sold large part of the bitcoins they got from their customers as "pre-orders". They were wrong expecting a lower bitcoin rate, however. This is why bicoin/$ exchange rate will now continue to rise as they need to buy bitcoins to make even partial refunds!

would you fuck off already, ya dickhead

Photon939

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BFL used bitpay, they received dollars when you paid so that's what you get back. All the stuff on their site is priced in dollars, they just happen to also accept coins as payment. It sucks that you lost out on the price increases but out of all the real issues with BFL, this is not one and has been discussed at length already.

becoin

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Quote from: muyuu on January 17, 2013, 08:26:15 AM

Their costs are in dollars so you cannot expect anything else as a refund really.

I thought they don't use customers money to pay their salaries and expences. Didn't they say they've attracted venture capital?!

deadweasel

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Yeah, this OP clearly has his head up his ass. To expect full bitcoin refunds is absolutely inane -- they made it clear that would not be the case. They made it clear they transferred their BTCs into dollars the same day -- so they weren't using your coins for speculation.

That's why it was better the WHOLE TIME to just buy bitcoins and let them go up in value. I can say that in hindsight, anyway, but it's what I did (except for a single jally order which I had refunded when I saw the way things were going). I think speculating thus far is more profitable than mining.

If you didn't read everything before you made your purchase then you have a lot to learn.

becoin

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Quote from: cedivad on January 17, 2013, 08:23:05 AM

You can get a $ refund, correct?

I guess I can get both US dollars and Zimbabwean dollars if I want to?
But people didn't pay in $. They paid in bitcoins and want bitcoin refunds.

Topic: WOW! Becoin failed to read and comprehend BFL's policy on BTC refunds - page 12. (Read 35862 times)