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Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1976. (Read 4670562 times)

donator
Activity: 1274
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GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
As I see it, having MRO take everything and upsetting the BCN devs by capitalizing on their work can backfire big time as they might "nuke" the clones and go with a V2 which heavily improves on V1. And then it's game over.

This is a really good point that I had overlooked myself.

The only way to position MRO for the long term is if the core developers are Cryptographers that have the expertise to stay ahead of the Bytecoin developers.

Otherwise a BCN 2.0 fair launch could be a problem.

If I was a BCN 1.0 dev, I would dump my BCN making myself a millionaire, and restart with the official BCN 2.0 to continue with my passion of making an anonymous Crypto without having to be greedy anymore.

How capable are the Monero developers?

What can they introduce in "V2" that can't be merged downstream? Every significant improvement Bitcoin has made has been merged down into Litecoin, Dogecoin, and every other fork. "Restarting" won't be an option, as by then they'll have too many people holding coins that won't let BCN go (even if their holdings are a paltry sum compared to the premine). They can do a relaunch, but someone else will continue running with the original BCN for fear of losing their "investment".

Also on that topic, Bytecoin is such a bad name choice - not only is it too similar to Bitcoin, but the existing Bytecoin cryptocurrency makes things incredibly confusing for end-users...it's a PR nightmare:)

In terms of our capabilities, one need only look at an obvious example: in the ~4 weeks we've been working on the coin (part time, unpaid, voluntarily, with tacotime having been on leave and dealing with personal matters) we've improved the hashing function used in Monero and in Bytecoin to 12x its original performance (our initial improvements doubled it, further improvements brought it up to ~12x performance). The Bytecoin devs have not merged this upstream, although it would be a trivial exercise for them to do so. This function speeds up mining, but far more importantly it speeds up verifying the blockchain. Try loading a blockchain from scratch in Monero and compare the speed to Bytecoin...it's not even slightly comparable.
full member
Activity: 224
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legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1015
As I see it, having MRO take everything and upsetting the BCN devs by capitalizing on their work can backfire big time as they might "nuke" the clones and go with a V2 which heavily improves on V1. And then it's game over.

This is a really good point that I had overlooked myself.

The only way to position MRO for the long term is if the core developers are Cryptographers that have the expertise to stay ahead of the Bytecoin developers.

Otherwise a BCN 2.0 fair launch could be a problem.

If I was a BCN 1.0 dev, I would dump my BCN making myself a millionaire, and restart with the official BCN 2.0 to continue with my passion of making an anonymous Crypto without having to be greedy anymore.

How capable are the Monero developers?

Although remember, at the end of the day hash power wins, if Monero keeps gaining the majority of CryptoNote coin hashpower, then they can be well positioned to take on BCN 2.0
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
I'd like to address the comments that have been bouncing around, particularly the points AlexGr raised. I read some of the back-and-forth, and I'm glad we are debating and engaging like this.

As a brief history lesson, do you remember Tenebrix? It was the first scrypt-based coin. To quote Buffer Overflow's thoughts on the matter: "The block reward at block 1 was 7769999.00000000 TBX, then continues with 25.00000000 TBX for each block after that." Tenebrix was unabashedly premined, just as BCN has been. Litecoin cloned Tenebrix (Artforz was even the main developer contributing code to both Tenebrix and Litecoin), added a few small changes and bug fixes, and there you have it. Nobody really remembers Tenebrix or even Fairbrix (fair relaunch of Tenebrix by Coblee, who launched Litecoin at roughly the same time - it died due to lack of any hashrate which made a 51% attack trivial), but Litecoin? Well. Need I say more.

2011 wasn't exactly 2014. Post-2013 boom, the crypto landscape was filled with clones and thus the level of acceptability has gone down.

Quote
- The blockchain was not publicly observable or observed for those 2 years. We have no reason to believe it is true, and even if it was true it still means that ~151 billion of the 184 billion BCN (82%) were mined prior to its public release. Think about that pragmatically. Would you want to use a currency where unknown actors controlled over 80% of it? This alone takes Bytecoin from being decentralised to being centralised by virtue of those controlling the flow of the currency.

It's a stretch to go the "centralized" route by virtue of money supply distribution. But no, with 80% premine I'm not interested in being dumped by the bagholders, even if they are selling at 1 satoshi.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
I'd like to address the comments that have been bouncing around, particularly the points AlexGr raised. I read some of the back-and-forth, and I'm glad we are debating and engaging like this.

As a brief history lesson, do you remember Tenebrix? It was the first scrypt-based coin. To quote Buffer Overflow's thoughts on the matter: "The block reward at block 1 was 7769999.00000000 TBX, then continues with 25.00000000 TBX for each block after that." Tenebrix was unabashedly premined, just as BCN has been. Litecoin cloned Tenebrix (Artforz was even the main developer contributing code to both Tenebrix and Litecoin), added a few small changes and bug fixes, and there you have it. Nobody really remembers Tenebrix or even Fairbrix (fair relaunch of Tenebrix by Coblee, who launched Litecoin at roughly the same time - it died due to lack of any hashrate which made a 51% attack trivial), but Litecoin? Well. Need I say more.

I do not think any of us have any bug-bear with the BCN developers. But it is a fallacy to believe that they are wizards that wrote the code and therefore the only people capable of maintaining it, as was already demonstrated in the Tenebrix / Litecoin debacle. Litecoin certainly didn't need to wait for lolcust to make code changes for them to fix bugs and improve the codebase.


I also feel we should challenge BCN's claimed 2 years of blockchain data for several reasons:

- The blockchain was not publicly observable or observed for those 2 years. We have no reason to believe it is true, and even if it was true it still means that ~151 billion of the 184 billion BCN (82%) were mined prior to its public release. Think about that pragmatically. Would you want to use a currency where unknown actors controlled over 80% of it? This alone takes Bytecoin from being decentralised to being centralised by virtue of those controlling the flow of the currency.

- Thus far we have not had any outpouring of public, known figures stating that they have used BCN for the past few years and can back up the 2 year claim. This means that the 151 billion is in the hands of people unknown, unknowable, and untrustworthy. Not only can they perform massive market manipulation with that, but everyone is left dabbling in the shallow end of the pool. Practically: at the current block reward the BCN network will spit out ~82.5 million coins a day down to ~44.7 million at the end of the year. That means that between now and the end of the year (224 days) the network will produce around 13.83 billion coins in a supposedly fair manner, or about 7.6%, barely enough to swing a cat much less affect the power wielded by those controlling 82% of the supply. By comparison, Monero has had 846 707 coins mined to date, of a total of ~18.4 million coins, or 4.6%, which leaves the market wide open for all to participate.

- The CryptoNote whitepaper was published on October 17, 2013, and the first commit to the Github repo was on November 15, 2013. By means of a comparison: Satoshi Nakamoto released the Bitcoin whitepaper in November 2008, and the network started in January 2009 with the first client, a not-too-disimilar timeframe. Had the BCN network started in November nobody would be questioning it. Rather, it stands to reason, by all accounts, that the individual(s) behind the CryptoNote whitepaper either wrote the initial code and gave it to the Bytecoin developer(s) who then ran with this, falsified a blockchain (trivial), and released it publicly in March after blockchain falsification was complete.

- The BCN mining code shipped purposely crippled, presumably as a way of making the falsified blockchain seem legitimate. Not just weird or written by a cryptographer who doesn't know how to optimise, but purposely crippled for slow mining. Things like recalculating a static value in every iteration of a loop instead of just once at the beginning is not a mistake, especially when viewed in light of the claimed 2 year history. Did nobody care to optimise the hashing code in 2 years, not even to improve the amount of time it takes to download and verify a blockchain from scratch? I find that unlikely. On the other hand: if you glance at our Github commits you'll notice that in two iterations (26c1a8569c and 49d55d3c30, primarily) we first improved the hashing by 2x its initial performance, and then further improved it to 12x its initial performance. It appears that the BCN devs are so lazy they haven't even merged our changes in, so everyone mining on their network has either used our changes or is mining 12x slower than they could. Or they just have a significantly faster miner already and couldn't be bothered.

- On their website, wherein they claim 2 years of stable work, they say: "Launched back in July 2012, Bytecoin has proved that it is going to stay for years to come." If that was the case, how did they not notice critical issues in the RPC API? The documentation on their wiki is blatantly incorrect (adding a trailing slash to the JSON RPC API URL causes a 404), and running simplewallet in RPC API mode tends to silently lose its connection to the daemon every few hours. That's a surprising issue not to have picked up in 2 years - was nobody using the RPC API in the wallet? None of the BCN merchants accepting payments needed to track said payments automatically? This seems highly improbable.


Monero is not merely a fair relaunch of an existing cryptocurrency. It is unashamedly a fair relaunch of Bytecoin, but the changes and bugfixes and improvements made in under a month speak volumes for the commitment we have to improving Monero. The Bytecoin developers have already shown their reluctance to merge our changes, why would they bother inheriting any further improvements we will make? If you want to use and mine Bytecoin with their crippled miner and their 82% premine please be my guest. I have nothing against the Bytecoin developers or their coin, and wish them all the best. As for me, and the rest of the Monero team, we will continue to take Monero to the next level without needing to wait for anyone's stamp of approval:)
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
MRO just a baby now ...Keep buying~~
member
Activity: 94
Merit: 10
sooo...im using GUI wallet and its stuck on initializing, with 1 block to download for hours already....conection has been moving up from 5 to 7 peers...
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Will definitely be keeping an eye on this coin.
sr. member
Activity: 243
Merit: 250
Anonymous function is so hot these days, hope this is not just an excuse for p&d
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
RTFM ;D
sr. member
Activity: 560
Merit: 250
"Trading Platform of The Future!"
http://moneropool.org has disabled longpolling. You should now be able to mine there with cpuminer-multi and we should find blocks more often.
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 501
I wil Follow this coin, good concept and I invested some BTC into It.
Succes
wise decision, do so before it hit big exchange.
---it also applies to Qora. Grin
legendary
Activity: 2453
Merit: 1025
Energy coin master
I wil Follow this coin, good concept and I invested some BTC into It.
Succes
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500

Ok so is it normal to expect an i7-4930k (high end $500 CPU) to mine only .1447 MRO in over a day?

No, your pool is unlucky. On average you'd expect something like 2 MRO per day.

I'm mining on http://extremepool.org/.  That's also why I posted the difficulty.  They had the best block finds
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500

Ok so is it normal to expect an i7-4930k (high end $500 CPU) to mine only .1447 MRO in over a day?

So based off that link the CPU power doubled in this amount of time not 392,796 times

No, your pool is unlucky. On average you'd expect something like 2 MRO per day. Yes, the CPU power did double over a single day.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500

All the pools are reporting similar stats except they haven't found blocks in a while.  The one I linked had more results.  That's why I linked it.

http://moneropool.com/#pool_blocks --Block Found: about 4 hours ago

http://moneropool.org/#pool_blocks  --  Block Found: a day ago

http://monerominers.com/pool/#pool_blocks  -- 23 hours since it had a block

http://monero.crypto-pool.fr/#pool_blocks  -- Block Found: about 5 hours ago

http://extremepool.org/#pool_blocks  -- Block Found: about an hour ago

As I explained, they were testing those pools on a test network with a handful of CPUs. You're welcome to load the daemon and print out blockchain data yourself to check the difficulty on the main chain. Here's the data: http://monerochain.info/charts/difficulty

No discontinuity.

Ok so is it normal to expect an i7-4930k (high end $500 CPU) to mine only .1447 MRO in over a day?

So based off that link the CPU power doubled in this amount of time not 392,796 times
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500

All the pools are reporting similar stats except they haven't found blocks in a while.  The one I linked had more results.  That's why I linked it.

http://moneropool.com/#pool_blocks --Block Found: about 4 hours ago

http://moneropool.org/#pool_blocks  --  Block Found: a day ago

http://monerominers.com/pool/#pool_blocks  -- 23 hours since it had a block

http://monero.crypto-pool.fr/#pool_blocks  -- Block Found: about 5 hours ago

http://extremepool.org/#pool_blocks  -- Block Found: about an hour ago

As I explained, they were testing those pools on a test network with a handful of CPUs. You're welcome to load the daemon and print out blockchain data yourself to check the difficulty on the main chain. Here's the data: http://monerochain.info/charts/difficulty

No discontinuity.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Can someone explain the HUGE increase in difficulty since the coin was added to Poloniex.  The difficulty went from 275 to 108,019,043 in a little over a day!!  How is that possible?  The normal excuse is, "ooh well interest was sparked and we added new miners".  You added 392,796 times more miners in a little over a day?!? This coins isn't the easiest to mine and you're average miner is running crap CPUs because they are focused on GPU mining.  This is the type of growth you see with GPU.  


49570   108019043   18ee4f95a86f620e37b43a136de666099047297b9cfae1ce855868b5799b9355   5/20/2014, 11:28:00 PM
49397   106710107   717740f776e96910573d2e64cbcc434d4bed2ac4e7f98986eca63f16c8c15d1b   5/20/2014, 8:41:50 PM
49341   105230559   4444c28b45d196238ebec9b744811c64137da01819ff4382602f125cbb0519e3   5/20/2014, 7:35:25 PM
.....
47573   52562846   9ea499dd86fe6ae4bf0d6ab1b81485722fb9cb46e6a80e3b27ed4b6a9b02f690   5/19/2014, 6:02:03 PM
47487   52615173   7c8d71ec2ed1e159c76d17b1654bda87871b465080161675e3b0e96a1471cfc7   5/19/2014, 4:30:24 PM
47467   51996666   0d1c94237f905c1f77097c87fc4c9a1e60688160bedf490cbb821ac7d674ba1e   5/19/2014, 4:10:25 PM
47438   10000   872f9517be57c577af822824e4f11dbee1d527ccf3eb325c0b47867ed27c1ea5   5/19/2014, 3:42:15 PM
47426   10000   8f2103396f41b9c7da645b19a0abaa002c899c6e06868182771079e7eafe3b73   5/19/2014, 3:29:39 PM
47385   274      34abb6e069c484b0460456398884ec2350573a2933478f444b1c7e614c76bf14   5/19/2014, 2:59:01 PM
47103   584      5631f0c6b9b63628a933ff33388cfdda8f75d3f82add7dfc07be475735afeeac   5/19/2014, 11:00:06 AM
47010   249      c38c0a493c0823a61f2c865039adbfe8e682f84a875453961290603c6129cf1e   5/19/2014, 9:28:36 AM

http://extremepool.org/#pool_blocks

I'm really interested in the coin but this explosive growth is really bothersome.  I'd like to get some feedback.  
that is my pool and it is not logging test blocks it is on the main chain

Block 47385: http://monerochain.info/block/34abb6e069c484b0460456398884ec2350573a2933478f444b1c7e614c76bf14

Difficulty: 49,767,061

That pool site is probably logging test network blocks, which would correspond to a separate chain, not the main Monero chain.
that is my pool it is on the main chain
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Can someone explain the HUGE increase in difficulty since the coin was added to Poloniex.  The difficulty went from 275 to 108,019,043 in a little over a day!!  How is that possible?  The normal excuse is, "ooh well interest was sparked and we added new miners".  You added 392,796 times more miners in a little over a day?!? This coins isn't the easiest to mine and you're average miner is running crap CPUs because they are focused on GPU mining.  This is the type of growth you see with GPU.  


49570   108019043   18ee4f95a86f620e37b43a136de666099047297b9cfae1ce855868b5799b9355   5/20/2014, 11:28:00 PM
49397   106710107   717740f776e96910573d2e64cbcc434d4bed2ac4e7f98986eca63f16c8c15d1b   5/20/2014, 8:41:50 PM
49341   105230559   4444c28b45d196238ebec9b744811c64137da01819ff4382602f125cbb0519e3   5/20/2014, 7:35:25 PM
.....
47573   52562846   9ea499dd86fe6ae4bf0d6ab1b81485722fb9cb46e6a80e3b27ed4b6a9b02f690   5/19/2014, 6:02:03 PM
47487   52615173   7c8d71ec2ed1e159c76d17b1654bda87871b465080161675e3b0e96a1471cfc7   5/19/2014, 4:30:24 PM
47467   51996666   0d1c94237f905c1f77097c87fc4c9a1e60688160bedf490cbb821ac7d674ba1e   5/19/2014, 4:10:25 PM
47438   10000   872f9517be57c577af822824e4f11dbee1d527ccf3eb325c0b47867ed27c1ea5   5/19/2014, 3:42:15 PM
47426   10000   8f2103396f41b9c7da645b19a0abaa002c899c6e06868182771079e7eafe3b73   5/19/2014, 3:29:39 PM
47385   274      34abb6e069c484b0460456398884ec2350573a2933478f444b1c7e614c76bf14   5/19/2014, 2:59:01 PM
47103   584      5631f0c6b9b63628a933ff33388cfdda8f75d3f82add7dfc07be475735afeeac   5/19/2014, 11:00:06 AM
47010   249      c38c0a493c0823a61f2c865039adbfe8e682f84a875453961290603c6129cf1e   5/19/2014, 9:28:36 AM

http://extremepool.org/#pool_blocks

I'm really interested in the coin but this explosive growth is really bothersome.  I'd like to get some feedback.  

Block 47385: http://monerochain.info/block/34abb6e069c484b0460456398884ec2350573a2933478f444b1c7e614c76bf14

Difficulty: 49,767,061

That pool site is probably logging test network blocks, which would correspond to a separate chain, not the main Monero chain.

All the pools are reporting similar stats except they haven't found blocks in a while.  The one I linked had more results.  That's why I linked it.

http://moneropool.com/#pool_blocks --Block Found: about 4 hours ago

http://moneropool.org/#pool_blocks  --  Block Found: a day ago

http://monerominers.com/pool/#pool_blocks  -- 23 hours since it had a block

http://monero.crypto-pool.fr/#pool_blocks  -- Block Found: about 5 hours ago

http://extremepool.org/#pool_blocks  -- Block Found: about an hour ago
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