[XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1442.

smooth

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Merit: 1198

Quote from: ArticMine on March 19, 2016, 06:46:11 PM

Quote from: smooth on March 19, 2016, 06:37:02 PM

...
The answer in the case of bitfinex seems vague. Here is a discussion from a year ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2h2tfe/question_for_bitfinex_can_you_please_explain_in/

I don't know if there is anything more recent, but I gather (don't rely on this necessarily) that Bitfinex has said they will cover the losses, but only up to their ability to pay, or perhaps the amount in an insurance fund. It is not really clear.

Interesting. This creates an additional exchange risk that could impact those that do not lend for margin trading.

TLDR "Hold your own private keys"

ArticMine

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Activity: 2282

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Monero Core Team

Quote from: smooth on March 19, 2016, 06:37:02 PM

...
The answer in the case of bitfinex seems vague. Here is a discussion from a year ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2h2tfe/question_for_bitfinex_can_you_please_explain_in/

I don't know if there is anything more recent, but I gather (don't rely on this necessarily) that Bitfinex has said they will cover the losses, but only up to their ability to pay, or perhaps the amount in an insurance fund. It is not really clear.

Interesting. This creates an additional exchange risk that could impact those that do not lend for margin trading.

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: ArticMine on March 19, 2016, 06:32:11 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on March 19, 2016, 06:19:49 PM

Quote from: smooth on March 19, 2016, 04:15:03 PM

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

Quote

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

... my question here is who covers the part of the loss that is not covered by the traders equity? This can happen in a fast moving market where a margin call results in a loss in excess of the traders equity.

The answer in the case of bitfinex seems vague. Here is a discussion from a year ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2h2tfe/question_for_bitfinex_can_you_please_explain_in/

I don't know if there is anything more recent, but I gather (don't rely on this necessarily) that Bitfinex has said they will cover the losses, but only up to their ability to pay, or perhaps the amount in an insurance fund. It is not really clear.

ArticMine

legendary

Activity: 2282

Merit: 1050

Monero Core Team

Quote from: Hueristic on March 19, 2016, 06:19:49 PM

Quote from: smooth on March 19, 2016, 04:15:03 PM

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

Quote

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

... my question here is who covers the part of the loss that is not covered by the traders equity? This can happen in a fast moving market where a margin call results in a loss in excess of the traders equity.

Hueristic

legendary

Activity: 3836

Merit: 4969

Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: smooth on March 19, 2016, 04:15:03 PM

...

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.
...

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

Quote

3. Margin Funding

Our peer-to-peer margin funding feature goes hand in hand with the margin trading feature described above. If you are not a trader and prefer steadier returns, this feature may be for you.

Bitfinex allows you, using your Deposit Wallet, to provide margin funding to other traders in the form of bitcoins, litecoins, ethers, and/or US dollars. You can enter offers with your own chosen terms (daily rate of return, duration, and amount). When an offer is taken by a trader, the money in your wallet will be used to buy or sell bitcoins, litecoins, and/or ethers, a margin funding contract will be opened. When the position closes the funds used in that position are returned to your wallet. Fees to the funding providers are paid daily at approximately 1:30 UTC.

You are not exposed to exchange risk when providing margin funding with Bitfinex. The exchange risk is taken on by the trader, and in the case that the position loses money, the trader will cover the loss using funds in his trading wallet.

birr

hero member

Activity: 870

Merit: 585

I notice that price movement looks a bit like a step function, complete with ringing.

aerbax

full member

Activity: 201

Merit: 100

Speaking of microtransactions, I've spent the last few days working on something for website operators.

The short of it is to hand theming control over to the visitors, but make it stupidly cheap (0.1 monero).

I call it "Site Novelty as a Service".

If you want to play around with it, there are more details at https://hellomonero.com/page/snaas

I'm not sure if this is a great idea, or a terribly stupid idea, but it was something I wanted to test.

I was also able to build a little script that watches your simplewallet for transactions, and then sends you a notification on receipt of a payment, but I'm waiting for a specific bug to be fixed before I release that to the public.

ArticMine

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Activity: 2282

Merit: 1050

Monero Core Team

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on March 19, 2016, 01:53:03 PM

Replacing Cryptonote rings with RingCT value hiding is probably incompatible with microtransactions-at-scale in all current block chain designs because (including Monero) they don't remain decentralized at-scale, but not that was Monero's focus any way:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on March 19, 2016, 01:40:49 PM

Although sub-penny microtransactions are not economically feasible with credit cards nor current crypto-currencies because the fees are too high, these systems could in theory lower costs enough to lower fees to a percentage of the value of the transaction (assuming transaction values are not hidden with homomorphic encryption, because in which case the oligarchy centralization inherent in these system has an incentive to raise to fees to what the market will bear cutting out lower valued transactions).

...

Micro transactions is one thing that can be easily provided by a traditional centralized ledger provider that is funded by Monero. The first thing to understand here is that micro transactions by their very nature fall way below any AML/KNC regulatory requirements. Someone funding an account with say 10 USD, in order to pay for say 10,000 page views at 0.001 USD per page view is not the concern of financial regulators. This issue with micro transactions with the current fiat payment systems is not the actual micro transactions themselves but how do you fund the account in the first place, especially if anonymity is desired and this is done across international boundaries? As for the micro transaction provider themselves there is no reasonable reason for them to keep track of who sent 0.001 USD to whom. If they do not have a strict privacy policy then the market can find another provider. Filing millions of suspicious transaction reports for amounts under 0.01 USD each is not a valid reason and could easily land the provider who does this into serious legal trouble with the agency that was the target of such a denial of service attack.

Dotto

legendary

Activity: 981

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No maps for these territories

Quote from: nioc on March 19, 2016, 04:33:10 PM

290 is the new 270

inexorable

found some loose change under the exchange's couch cushions and placed a bid that has a small chance of being filled

That are the most euphoric ones in my case. Kind of fishing tasty pieces.

Dotto

legendary

Activity: 981

Merit: 1005

No maps for these territories

Quote from: smooth on March 19, 2016, 04:15:03 PM

Quote from: Dotto on March 19, 2016, 03:57:26 PM

Quote from: bitjedi on March 19, 2016, 12:59:07 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on March 19, 2016, 12:54:01 PM

Tried to make a loan offer and got error "loan must be 5% or lower". Cheesy

Code:

My Open Loan Offers
Coin Rate Amount Duration Auto-renew Date
XMR 5.0000% 450 2 Days Off 2016-03-19 17:48:4

And whats with this 2 day minimum? Guess it's not really a free market over there.

it's to ensure the shorters can have a chance of making money before having to close their position. anyway... if u are a megabull, just lend a lot, wait til its borrowed, then pump the market yourself, cancel your shorts and squeeze the shorters into buying higher. really evil but given the relatively illiquid markets at polo you only need a few $100k usd to pull this off in a big way. #freemarketftw

edit. that lending rate is daily. and polo takes 15% of your profit from the lending. also, lending is not guaranteed to be safe. polo says that if the person borrowing defaults in a margin call bit their total account balance is below 0 after liquidation, the lender eats it.

The lender eats it??. Ooops, I didn´t know it!. Do you know how common is it?. Does Polo notifies you in case of happening?. I thought it were 100% safe, I think Im going to replanteate my lendings...

Tons of useful info Bitjedi!

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.

Quote from: poloniex terms of use

If the value of the assets in your Account falls below the maintenance margin requirement or Poloniex determines, at its sole discretion, that your Account appears to be in danger of defaulting on a loan, Poloniex may seize and liquidate any or all of your positions and assets on any balance in your Account in order to settle your debt to lenders. If, after your positions and assets are liquidated, your account still contains insufficient funds to settle your debts to lenders, you will be responsible for any additional funds owed. Intentionally defaulting on a loan may result in Poloniex reporting your activities to authorities and/or in legal prosecution.

Although Poloniex takes several precautions to prevent a user from defaulting on a loan, the high volatility and substantial risk of illiquidity in markets means that Poloniex cannot make any guarantees against default. When you lend to other users using the Platform’s P2P lending system, you risk the loss of an unpaid principle if the borrower defaults on a loan and liquidation of the borrower's account fails to raise sufficient funds to cover his or her debt.

I thought it was mathematically sure because somehow the system would calculate how to margin call the borrower without f$%·ing the lender, but it was only a guess. If that has never happened somehow reliefs me, I guess we need a really extreme movement to crush the numbers.

So I guess the higher the amount lended multiplied the interest rate, the higher the possibility the get rekt that way... makes sense.

Very useful info, thanks

wpalczynski

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1000

Word on the street is that Blue Horseshoe loves Monero.

nioc

legendary

Activity: 1624

Merit: 1008

290 is the new 270

inexorable

found some loose change under the exchange's couch cushions and placed a bid that has a small chance of being filled

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: Dotto on March 19, 2016, 03:57:26 PM

Quote from: bitjedi on March 19, 2016, 12:59:07 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on March 19, 2016, 12:54:01 PM

Tried to make a loan offer and got error "loan must be 5% or lower". Cheesy

Code:

My Open Loan Offers
Coin Rate Amount Duration Auto-renew Date
XMR 5.0000% 450 2 Days Off 2016-03-19 17:48:4

And whats with this 2 day minimum? Guess it's not really a free market over there.

it's to ensure the shorters can have a chance of making money before having to close their position. anyway... if u are a megabull, just lend a lot, wait til its borrowed, then pump the market yourself, cancel your shorts and squeeze the shorters into buying higher. really evil but given the relatively illiquid markets at polo you only need a few $100k usd to pull this off in a big way. #freemarketftw

edit. that lending rate is daily. and polo takes 15% of your profit from the lending. also, lending is not guaranteed to be safe. polo says that if the person borrowing defaults in a margin call bit their total account balance is below 0 after liquidation, the lender eats it.

The lender eats it??. Ooops, I didn´t know it!. Do you know how common is it?. Does Polo notifies you in case of happening?. I thought it were 100% safe, I think Im going to replanteate my lendings...

Tons of useful info Bitjedi!

I believe it has never happened, yet.

The actual terms are somewhat more complex, but no question the lender is taking some risk.

Also, even if hypothetically the loan were 100% safe (though I'm not really sure how that would be possible), funds on an exchange are not.

Quote from: poloniex terms of use

If the value of the assets in your Account falls below the maintenance margin requirement or Poloniex determines, at its sole discretion, that your Account appears to be in danger of defaulting on a loan, Poloniex may seize and liquidate any or all of your positions and assets on any balance in your Account in order to settle your debt to lenders. If, after your positions and assets are liquidated, your account still contains insufficient funds to settle your debts to lenders, you will be responsible for any additional funds owed. Intentionally defaulting on a loan may result in Poloniex reporting your activities to authorities and/or in legal prosecution.

Although Poloniex takes several precautions to prevent a user from defaulting on a loan, the high volatility and substantial risk of illiquidity in markets means that Poloniex cannot make any guarantees against default. When you lend to other users using the Platform’s P2P lending system, you risk the loss of an unpaid principle if the borrower defaults on a loan and liquidation of the borrower's account fails to raise sufficient funds to cover his or her debt.

Dotto

legendary

Activity: 981

Merit: 1005

No maps for these territories

Quote from: bitjedi on March 19, 2016, 12:59:07 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on March 19, 2016, 12:54:01 PM

Tried to make a loan offer and got error "loan must be 5% or lower". Cheesy

Code:

My Open Loan Offers
Coin Rate Amount Duration Auto-renew Date
XMR 5.0000% 450 2 Days Off 2016-03-19 17:48:4

And whats with this 2 day minimum? Guess it's not really a free market over there.

it's to ensure the shorters can have a chance of making money before having to close their position. anyway... if u are a megabull, just lend a lot, wait til its borrowed, then pump the market yourself, cancel your shorts and squeeze the shorters into buying higher. really evil but given the relatively illiquid markets at polo you only need a few $100k usd to pull this off in a big way. #freemarketftw

edit. that lending rate is daily. and polo takes 15% of your profit from the lending. also, lending is not guaranteed to be safe. polo says that if the person borrowing defaults in a margin call bit their total account balance is below 0 after liquidation, the lender eats it.

The lender eats it??. Ooops, I didn´t know it!. Do you know how common is it?. Does Polo notifies you in case of happening?. I thought it were 100% safe, I think Im going to replanteate my lendings...

Tons of useful info Bitjedi!

dEBRUYNE

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 1141

Quote from: americanpegasus on March 19, 2016, 03:37:58 PM

I would really like to see a margin market appear where people can borrow XMR to long other crypto. I just don't like the idea that borrowing XMR immediately means shorting it. Maybe with time and adoption, the volume on the XMR market in Polo will support this.

Why not use your XMR as collateral to go margin long on another crypto? Concept is the same.

americanpegasus

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 504

I would really like to see a margin market appear where people can borrow XMR to long other crypto. I just don't like the idea that borrowing XMR immediately means shorting it. Maybe with time and adoption, the volume on the XMR market in Polo will support this.

TPTB_need_war

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 262

Quote from: DaveyJones on March 19, 2016, 02:29:47 PM

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on March 19, 2016, 01:53:03 PM

Replacing Cryptonote rings with RingCT value hiding is probably incompatible with microtransactions-at-scale in all current block chain designs because (including Monero) they don't remain decentralized at-scale, but not that was Monero's focus any way:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on March 19, 2016, 01:40:49 PM

Although sub-penny microtransactions are not economically feasible with credit cards nor current crypto-currencies because the fees are too high, these systems could in theory lower costs enough to lower fees to a percentage of the value of the transaction (assuming transaction values are not hidden with homomorphic encryption, because in which case the oligarchy centralization inherent in these system has an incentive to raise to fees to what the market will bear cutting out lower valued transactions).

...

Dunno if i grasp your intention at full spec, but microtransactions we´re never intented to be populating the mainchain ---> https://getmonero.org/design-goals/

Side-chains and daughter-chains (even if merged-mined) have very negative implications on security for the main chain.

Nevertheless, the core issues of scaling the design still need to be solved for the daughter chain, which no one has solved yet. Or you go off-chain, which has another set of insoluble issues.

So we might as well just say Monero isn't going to do anyone-to-anyone-spontaneously microtransactions-at-scale. Until I see a detailed technical refutation, I will assert that from my knowledge base on this area of expertise.

Edit: RingCT I presume is optional. So those who want to present the value of their transaction, so that an oligarchy could apply a lower fee (without destroying their ability to charge the highest fee the market will bear), would still work for users that chose not to hide the value of their microtransactions.

DaveyJones

hero member

Activity: 768

Merit: 505

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on March 19, 2016, 01:53:03 PM

Replacing Cryptonote rings with RingCT value hiding is probably incompatible with microtransactions-at-scale in all current block chain designs because (including Monero) they don't remain decentralized at-scale, but not that was Monero's focus any way:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on March 19, 2016, 01:40:49 PM

Although sub-penny microtransactions are not economically feasible with credit cards nor current crypto-currencies because the fees are too high, these systems could in theory lower costs enough to lower fees to a percentage of the value of the transaction (assuming transaction values are not hidden with homomorphic encryption, because in which case the oligarchy centralization inherent in these system has an incentive to raise to fees to what the market will bear cutting out lower valued transactions).

...

Dunno if i grasp your intention at full spec, but microtransactions we´re never intented to be populating the mainchain ---> https://getmonero.org/design-goals/

TPTB_need_war

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 262

Replacing Cryptonote rings with RingCT value hiding is probably incompatible with microtransactions-at-scale in all current block chain designs because (including Monero) they don't remain decentralized at-scale, but not that was Monero's focus any way:

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on March 19, 2016, 01:40:49 PM

Although sub-penny microtransactions are not economically feasible with credit cards nor current crypto-currencies because the fees are too high, these systems could in theory lower costs enough to lower fees to a percentage of the value of the transaction (assuming transaction values are not hidden with homomorphic encryption, because in which case the oligarchy centralization inherent in these system has an incentive to raise to fees to what the market will bear cutting out lower valued transactions).

...

Drhiggins

sr. member

Activity: 306

Merit: 251

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on March 19, 2016, 01:14:56 PM

Crosspost:

Quote from: aerbax on March 19, 2016, 01:09:29 PM

Weekly Dev meeting notes for today:

https://hellomonero.com/article/monero-weekly-dev-meeting-notes-2016-03-19

Progress for sure. Love it! Grin

Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1442. (Read 3313576 times)