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Topic: [XMR] rpietila Monero Economics thread - page 13. (Read 70064 times)

hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
August 14, 2014, 08:23:13 AM
I smell a bet here.... Grin

have to think about it - if I only use xmr it is quite a win win Cheesy

edit: maybe we can do it - give me 2-3 days. I do not have ltc but a few xmr. I am also an uberbull regarding xmr but I think this estimation is too optimistic
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
August 14, 2014, 08:20:29 AM
LTC
 4.85*(1-0.011)^192
=0.58

Monero
 1.72*(1+0.007)^192
=6.56
 Huh
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
August 14, 2014, 03:59:41 AM
Just wanted to show you guys some math about what are the dynamics when XMR overtakes LTC as the second marketcap coin. As usual, the post is many points and they contain math but that's what I do.

Currently:

LTC's supply 31.1M, price $4.85, mktcap with current # of coins $151M.

XMR's supply 2.8M, price $1.72, mktcap with current # of coins $4.8M.


- Using 3 methods of calculating XMR internal growth rate (difference between estd number of users - calculated in both cases with 2 methods), price attractor (aminorex) and growth of the subscriptions of missives, the growth currently seems to be 2.2-2.5% per day.

- This growth is long-term unsustainable because it would lead to 30 million users in a year, which does not seem possible in cryptospace given BTC's slow progress and the fact that others are behind.

- So we must make a much toned-down assumption that the growth is only 1.2% per day during the time until LTC is conquered. Even this would lead to 1 million users in one year so albeit less than the current rate, it is still long-term unachievable so far.

- LTC price is continuously dropping, and this trend is expected to continue at the rate of -1.1% per day as it has been since December. The dropping price does not really let so many people exit LTC totally, so we expect that it retains the userbase of 100,000 (this may be quite off - I don't have much data to research the subject that does not interest me).

- XMR inflation must be taken into account. In the near term, it is going from 0.8% per day to 0.4%. We use the average, 0.6%.

- There is a coefficient related to Metcalfe law, which means basically that when the coin grows bigger, the average value stored per user grows bigger also. This leads to the observation that price grows faster than userbase. In BTC, the effect is seemingly small, 0.1% per day, so let's add it here also.

Result: XMR is raking internal growth at 1.2%, minus inflation -0.6%, plus network effects 0.1%, total +0.7% per diem.
LTC is losing -1.1% per diem. Difference is 1.8%-points.


LTC starts with a head start of 31 times bigger market cap.

After making the calculations, it seems that it takes 192 days for XMR to overtake LTC. Yes, much, in a way, but it is only 2015-2-22.

Furthermore, above we were actually comparing prices, and not marketcaps. XMR marketcap would actually be higher because of its higher inflation during this time. That would be a bit extra work and likely tilt the result to January.

I smell a bet here.... Grin
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 2053
Free spirit
August 14, 2014, 02:56:30 AM
Following this thread with interest.

newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
August 13, 2014, 08:11:22 AM
Monero economy is good to the industry. I suggest everyone to join our community!
So if you are reading this post and you are not an XMR user you should download XMR wallet right now.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
August 13, 2014, 07:53:32 AM
Monero economy is good to the industry. I suggest everyone to join our community!
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
August 13, 2014, 07:39:13 AM
Here is the new chart.
The graphics is so amazing that nobody can doubt about XMR profitability!!!
It was obvious even without graphics!
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
August 13, 2014, 07:17:36 AM
Here is the new chart.
The graphics is so amazing that nobody can doubt about XMR profitability!!!
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
August 12, 2014, 01:37:47 PM
The XMR price is performing pretty bad, as you know, it has retraced around 70% in the last month. Do you have some rational, abstract or generalizing clue of what's happening?

I'd say that the entire altcoin market is performing pretty badly.  This last week has been brutal.  If you take out BTC and just look at the alt cap (or most subsets of the cap that I track), alts are down 20-25%.  I would at least take, as a data point, that Monero has held up an awful lot better over the last week than the market.  Could be that, as has been pointed out, the current price is reasonably inexpensive compared to value.

Your mileage may vary.
hero member
Activity: 794
Merit: 1000
Monero (XMR) - secure, private, untraceable
August 11, 2014, 05:13:45 PM

The XMR price is performing pretty bad, as you know, it has retraced around 70% in the last month. Do you have some rational, abstract or generalizing clue of what's happening?

Yes, quite much indeed, as I spend (up to) hours daily on the subject.

A short description suffices since this is the last thing before sleep today: It is going in waves, and the volatility is decreasing. If we make a higher low, which is quite probable after 0.00231, we are on track to higher prices. Buy low, sell high (if at all). I would consider now we are "low" since the all time average price is about 0.00410.
I sold XMR two times in previous lows. It'll go lower and lower before I sell.

Edit: tags added to all the conversation.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
August 11, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
The XMR price is performing pretty bad, as you know, it has retraced around 70% in the last month. Do you have some rational, abstract or generalizing clue of what's happening?

Yes, quite much indeed, as I spend (up to) hours daily on the subject.

A short description suffices since this is the last thing before sleep today: It is going in waves, and the volatility is decreasing. If we make a higher low, which is quite probable after 0.00231, we are on track to higher prices. Buy low, sell high (if at all). I would consider now we are "low" since the all time average price is about 0.00410.
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
August 11, 2014, 04:09:56 PM
The XMR price is performing pretty bad, as you know, it has retraced around 70% in the last month. Do you have some rational, abstract or generalizing clue of what's happening?

It's basically a matter of demand vs supply.

Demand and supply are currently pretty closely balanced. However, demand will hopefully increase, and supply should decrease, as designed with the block reward. The only way supply would increase would be if miners left Monero faster than the negative effect on supply of the decreasing block reward.

That won't happen unless interest drastically drops, causing price to decline, causing miners to leave for more profitable coins.

Essentially, demand drives everything as far as I can tell. Fortunately, daily demand for XMR only has to stay flat for the price to increase as block reward decreases, so it has an inherent advantage vs supply.

legendary
Activity: 981
Merit: 1005
No maps for these territories
August 11, 2014, 04:03:02 PM
The XMR price is performing pretty bad, as you know, it has retraced around 70% in the last month. Do you have some rational, abstract or generalizing clue of what's happening?
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
August 11, 2014, 02:40:32 PM
Sure, guys:

-Had to chance my assumptions a bit as I've had some trouble getting the correct hash/watt ratio. I've found 2.45 hash/watt is relatively a good estimate based on my research (Example: Miner getting 3660 h/s from rig for about 1500 watts)

So:
-2.45 Hash/Watt (this may have been higher a few weeks ago, or for miners on average. It's simply based on some examples of 6x R9-290 rigs as of 2 weeks ago)
-93% after fees/orphans
-0.086 power cost - about as low as you can go, if you're the one footing the bill

Everything else is simply based on the blockchain stats available.

Here is the new chart.



hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
August 11, 2014, 12:45:09 PM
do you guys have an idea how to measure the diffusion/ distribution of xmr OUTSIDE of bitcointalk - I mean this baby is libertarians dream and I have the feeling that it is almost unknown outside of bitcointalk.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1000
August 11, 2014, 04:57:39 AM
It attempts to measure price versus breakeven mining sell price in XMR/BTC. According to this, XMR is cheap right now.

It would be helpful to state your assumptions (GPU cost, power cost, etc.)


* digicoin curious too. Please publish your data
hero member
Activity: 723
Merit: 503
August 07, 2014, 05:12:42 PM


... If this sounds valuable to you, chime in.



It does.

We're lucky to have you Rpietila. Thanks again for sharing your work with us!
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
August 06, 2014, 04:52:30 PM
It attempts to measure price versus breakeven mining sell price in XMR/BTC. According to this, XMR is cheap right now.

It would be helpful to state your assumptions (GPU cost, power cost, etc.)
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
August 06, 2014, 04:37:57 PM
If I seem to be advocating XMR, it's because I am.  I think there is no freedom without privacy, and XMR is one of the best defenses technology has ever offered against the inhumane oppressions which technological society has created.  I put my money where my mouth is, so I will gain from the appreciation in value which I strongly anticipate will be found in Monero over the long haul.



I'm guessing that a miner education campaign would go a long way towards stabilizing price at a higher level.  Therefore I will fight any miner education campaign tooth and nail, to widen and extend my accumulation window.

EDIT: however, my teeth are expensive, and my nails are trim, so I should arrange to retire from the fight early.  If I vowed to fight with firearms, steel, dimethyl mercury, or nukes, it should be taken more seriously.


I agree 100% miner education campaign would be great. Excellent idea
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
August 06, 2014, 02:31:38 PM

There is an initiative that I might be teamworking with somebody who polishes my important posts and embellishes them with pics. If this sounds valuable to you, chime in.


*ding*

This sounds valuable to me.  I will be AFK for a while to sleep and do a fair day's work for my employer, but would like to discuss how I can help make this data beautiful and accessible for the community.



Aminorex, get to it buddy, XMR is your new employer  Grin.

Here's a very ugly attempt of my own from rpiet's data.

Hopefully someone finds it useful. It attempts to measure price versus breakeven mining sell price in XMR/BTC. According to this, XMR is cheap right now.



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