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Topic: XMR vs DRK - page 42. (Read 69755 times)

member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 07:30:21 AM
So in other words, you've finally come to the same conclusion I've already expressed: everything hinges on the opsec of the MasterNode operators.

Nope, not at all....we went over all that.

It's the 'hardness' of the MN code that's important. How remotely exploitable it is, I would say.

edit: OK, giving this more consideration...remote exploitability of a given MN does have dependencies on Opsec. Let's assume what I think is fair to assume, that basic Opsec is in place similar to what we might expect on the BTC network....i.e MNs are at least behind a firewall and only listening on TCP/9999

Now you're getting it:)

The key difference there is that compromising a BTC node has no real knock-on effect for the network overall.

That question I asked yesterday appears to have gone unanswered, so I'll answer it: the number of honest BTC nodes any given BTC node needs to be connected to is 1. It can have 20 malicious peers all working together to lie to it and only 1 honest peer, and it will be able to determine which is the honest peer. The only way to truly disrupt its connection to the BTC network is to completely blackhole it.

In my opinion that has to be the baseline for comparison when designing a decentralised architecture. Without getting into a big discussion of decentralised vs. distributed architecture, this is the end-goal when you don't encourage decentralisation: http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-mission-to-decentralize-the-internet

So given the probabilities I listed above, how many DS nodes do we need to compromise, or make 'dishonest' to disrupt the MN network and break privacy? Enough to render the opsec issue negligible it seems.

Yes, I think a distributed vs decentralised debate could be had.

And a 'theoretically best design' debate.

But perhaps more importantly, a 'fit-for-purpose' debate.




hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
March 27, 2015, 07:23:46 AM
Our jugdement is always clouded by our emotional investments

Satoshi made us think in a different way, to not to trust, to question. Satoshi gave us Blockchain, the trustless authority.

When we have blockchain based solutions, why should we place our trust on nodes? Isnt it what we all are here for? to build trustless systems?

There are two types of people here, those who want to gain more fiat and those who want to help humanity. Choose your side
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
March 27, 2015, 07:20:35 AM
So in other words, you've finally come to the same conclusion I've already expressed: everything hinges on the opsec of the MasterNode operators.

Nope, not at all....we went over all that.

It's the 'hardness' of the MN code that's important. How remotely exploitable it is, I would say.

edit: OK, giving this more consideration...remote exploitability of a given MN does have dependencies on Opsec. Let's assume what I think is fair to assume, that basic Opsec is in place similar to what we might expect on the BTC network....i.e MNs are at least behind a firewall and only listening on TCP/9999

Now you're getting it:)

The key difference there is that compromising a BTC node has no real knock-on effect for the network overall.

That question I asked yesterday appears to have gone unanswered, so I'll answer it: the number of honest BTC nodes any given BTC node needs to be connected to is 1. It can have 20 malicious peers all working together to lie to it and only 1 honest peer, and it will be able to determine which is the honest peer. The only way to truly disrupt its connection to the BTC network is to completely blackhole it.

In my opinion that has to be the baseline for comparison when designing a decentralised architecture. Without getting into a big discussion of decentralised vs. distributed architecture, this is the end-goal when you don't encourage decentralisation: http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-mission-to-decentralize-the-internet
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 07:08:01 AM
why do we need bloaty on-chain anonymity when we have masternodes providing off-chain anonymity that's fit-for-purpose?

Bloat?? bahahaha

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-3d-nand-10tb-solid-state-drive/

yep, nice tech coming there...bottleneck on the network then (half-joking) Smiley

ok you can remove the word 'bloaty' from my statement if you like Smiley
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
March 27, 2015, 07:04:17 AM
why do we need bloaty on-chain anonymity when we have masternodes providing off-chain anonymity that's fit-for-purpose?

Bloat?? bahahaha

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-3d-nand-10tb-solid-state-drive/

We will have smaller size in future

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ring-signature-efficiency-972541
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 06:58:57 AM
Why do we need masternodes when we have always available on chain cryptographic anonymity?

why do we need bloaty on-chain anonymity when we have masternodes providing off-chain anonymity that's fit-for-purpose?
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
March 27, 2015, 06:54:24 AM
Why do we need masternodes when we have always available on chain cryptographic anonymity?
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 06:50:14 AM
Fair comment and one of the most interesting points made so far. It's not the number of Masternodes you have to compromise, but how easily you can compromise them. e.g. an exploit could be found and suddenly you have the whole network and can trace the transactions. There are obviously other points to consider there, but I get the idea.

XMR relies on cryptography, DRK relies on secure Masternode code to protect anonymity at any given point in time (since mixing is off-chain).

So in other words, you've finally come to the same conclusion I've already expressed: everything hinges on the opsec of the MasterNode operators.

Nope, not at all....we went over all that.

It's the 'hardness' of the MN code that's important. How remotely exploitable it is, I would say.

edit: OK, giving this more consideration...remote exploitability of a given MN does have dependencies on Opsec. Let's assume what I think is fair to assume, that basic Opsec is in place similar to what we might expect on the BTC network....i.e MNs are at least behind a firewall and only listening on TCP/9999

donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
March 27, 2015, 06:47:49 AM
Fair comment and one of the most interesting points made so far. It's not the number of Masternodes you have to compromise, but how easily you can compromise them. e.g. an exploit could be found and suddenly you have the whole network and can trace the transactions. There are obviously other points to consider there, but I get the idea.

XMR relies on cryptography, DRK relies on secure Masternode code to protect anonymity at any given point in time (since mixing is off-chain).

So in other words, you've finally come to the same conclusion I've already expressed: everything hinges on the opsec of the MasterNode operators.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 06:16:42 AM
Quote

Well that's not the concern. The concern is an adversary spying on a small but significant portion of masternode activity (say 15%). Your one tx might have an astronomically low probability of being revealed, but other transactions on the network won't be so lucky.


yes they will, that's how probability works Smiley

if there is an unbelievably tiny probability or catching a DS transaction with 15% of the network, you will catch an unbelievably tiny number of transactions....i.e. none in any sensible timeframe.
hero member
Activity: 795
Merit: 514
March 27, 2015, 06:08:49 AM
Correct me if I'm mistaken: these are probabilities for tracing a specific transaction.

What are the probabilities of being able to trace any non-specific transaction?

good point.

thinking out loud.....if you captured all the activity of 75% of the MNs for a whole day, somewhere in that dataset is all the information you need to piece together 1 complete transaction.....go find it Cheesy

Well that's not the concern. The concern is an adversary spying on a small but significant portion of masternode activity (say 15%). Your one tx might have an astronomically low probability of being revealed, but other transactions on the network won't be so lucky. Meanwhile the NSA*cough*I mean our adversary, is just collecting these unmasked transactions and saving them in a giant database for some time in the future when they might want to extort the revealed parties.

Suddenly those probabilities don't look as good, because the cost of revealing non-specific transactions may be very low, and adversaries can simply "cast a net" and collect their victims.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 05:52:14 AM
Correct me if I'm mistaken: these are probabilities for tracing a specific transaction.

What are the probabilities of being able to trace any non-specific transaction?

good point.

thinking out loud.....at 1 billion transactions per day, if you captured all the activity of 75% of the MNs for a whole day, somewhere in that dataset is all the information you need to piece together 1 complete transaction.....go find it Cheesy
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 05:49:51 AM
OK I plotted the curve:




Here are the numbers of nodes behind the graph - sorry, Excel only renders percentages to 30 decimal places Smiley so I'll do 2 tables, one with percentages and one with numbers.

1.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
2.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
...

This is just the upper bound of the probability to brake it if there are no flaws at all in the master nodes (but there is no way for you to prove so). With the current Dash "model" you can't know what the lower bound is. The lower bound could be just a straight vertical line at 0. So the best you could say about the probability of braking it with owning no master nodes at all is that it's between 0% and 100%.

Fair comment and one of the most interesting points made so far. It's not the number of Masternodes you have to compromise, but how easily you can compromise them. e.g. an exploit could be found and suddenly you have the whole network and can trace the transactions. There are obviously other points to consider there, but I get the idea.

XMR relies on cryptography, DRK relies on secure Masternode code to protect anonymity at any given point in time (since mixing is off-chain).

You could draw parallels with BTC. People have been trying to break it for years, no joy. I'm sure people are trying to break DASH given the effort going into trolling it Cheesy - will be interesting to see how it plays out.
hero member
Activity: 795
Merit: 514
March 27, 2015, 05:48:31 AM
Correct me if I'm mistaken: these are probabilities for tracing a specific transaction.

What are the probabilities of being able to trace any non-specific transaction?
hero member
Activity: 795
Merit: 514
March 27, 2015, 05:38:13 AM
I still don't understand what these "probabilities" illustrate? Either a transaction can be traced or it cannot. What exactly are the probabilities of?

If you compromise a masternode and spy on it's activity, you can theoretically start to piece together all the required information to trace a Darksend transaction back to a user's wallet. Since nodes are selected randomly for Darksend, you would need to compromise the correct nodes to do so. These are the probabilities of you having compromised the correct nodes and therefore being able to decode the transaction.

Okay that makes sense. Thank you.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 05:34:06 AM
I still don't understand what these "probabilities" illustrate? Either a transaction can be traced or it cannot. What exactly are the probabilities of?

If you compromise a masternode and spy on it's activity, you can theoretically start to piece together all the required information to trace a Darksend transaction back to a user's wallet. Since nodes are selected randomly for Darksend, you would need to compromise the correct nodes to do so. These are the probabilities of you having compromised the correct nodes and therefore being able to decode the transaction.
hero member
Activity: 794
Merit: 1000
Monero (XMR) - secure, private, untraceable
March 27, 2015, 05:29:34 AM
OK I plotted the curve:




Here are the numbers of nodes behind the graph - sorry, Excel only renders percentages to 30 decimal places Smiley so I'll do 2 tables, one with percentages and one with numbers.

1.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
2.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
...

This is just the upper bound of the probability to brake it if there are no flaws at all in the master nodes (but there is no way for you to prove so). With the current Dash "model" you can't know what the lower bound is. The lower bound could be just a straight vertical line at 0. So the best you could say about the probability of braking it with owning no master nodes at all is that it's between 0% and 100%.
hero member
Activity: 795
Merit: 514
March 27, 2015, 05:29:30 AM
I still don't understand what these "probabilities" illustrate? Either a transaction is traceable or it isn't. What exactly are the probabilities for?
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 05:25:58 AM


Evan burned the trust bridge, so I have no inclination (nor should I) to give his figures the benefit of the doubt.

OK, well like I said I think that's a cop-out. I put it to you that you won't debate the figures because you don't like what they demonstrate about Darksend with Masternode Blinding. If that's wrong and you think the figures do show a good level of security then by all means correct me Cheesy

member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
March 27, 2015, 05:20:23 AM


Quote

People investing in Enron or Haliburton, doesn't do anything for my confidence --well, it does, but certainly not in a good way. It seems like everyone involved in your project is focused on profits, but not on any redeemable goal.

Dude, play fair....you gave your investment criteria, I explained the wider picture....that's all.

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