You are threatening Bitcoin’s security - page 8.

singpolyma

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Quote from: N12 on May 17, 2011, 11:49:35 AM

Move to other pools. Stop mining on deepbit.

Here’s what someone with 50% of the network’s hashrate could do.

I've been hearing this for awhile, but since my miner will only computer proof of works and send those to deepbit, can deepbit really be used to attack the network using only that?

rezin777

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Quote from: Nesetalis on May 17, 2011, 05:23:44 PM

did you read my previous comment? <.<
I was simply poking a hole in my own argument.

Sorry, too many different threads at once!

rezin777

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Quote from: MoonShadow on May 17, 2011, 05:24:50 PM

Quote from: rezin777 on May 17, 2011, 05:21:19 PM

Quote from: Nesetalis on May 17, 2011, 05:14:28 PM

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

What would the reason be, for someone who wanted to hurt the network, to go to such lengths if they already had the required processing power?

Delay a response from the bitcoin community. If the attacker only had 51% of the hashing power as compared to the running network, he wouldn't have it for long after the community became aware of it. A call to arms would go out for every honest user to generate using any means available, and many would do so even at a loss. This is the 'hidden reserve' capacity of the bitcoin network, and we really don't have any idea how much the community could bring to bear, and neither would any potential attacker.

I see.

MoonShadow

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Quote from: rezin777 on May 17, 2011, 05:21:19 PM

Quote from: Nesetalis on May 17, 2011, 05:14:28 PM

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

What would the reason be, for someone who wanted to hurt the network, to go to such lengths if they already had the required processing power?

Delay a response from the bitcoin community. If the attacker only had 51% of the hashing power as compared to the running network, he wouldn't have it for long after the community became aware of it. A call to arms would go out for every honest user to generate using any means available, and many would do so even at a loss. This is the 'hidden reserve' capacity of the bitcoin network, and we really don't have any idea how much the community could bring to bear, and neither would any potential attacker.

Nesetalis

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did you read my previous comment? <.<
I was simply poking a hole in my own argument.

rezin777

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Quote from: MoonShadow on May 17, 2011, 05:19:47 PM

If you had that much processing power, odds are high that you have many other more profitable uses for it than attacking the blockchain. Like, for example, mining with the blockchain to capture 50% of the coins produced.

Only if your motive is economic. I think odds are high that someone who wants to hurt the network won't have economic motivations in mind. Well perhaps, but not certainly not Bitcoin related ones.

rezin777

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Quote from: Nesetalis on May 17, 2011, 05:14:28 PM

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

What would the reason be, for someone who wanted to hurt the network, to go to such lengths if they already had the required processing power?

MoonShadow

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Quote from: Nesetalis on May 17, 2011, 05:14:28 PM

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

If you had that much processing power, odds are high that you have many other more profitable uses for it than attacking the blockchain. Like, for example, mining with the blockchain to capture 50% of the coins produced.

Nesetalis

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i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

rezin777

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Quote from: Nesetalis on May 17, 2011, 05:07:50 PM

hmm.. perhaps in this case it may be best if there is a safeguard built in to bitcoin to prevent shares greater than 30% on a single pool? then again, how do you determine who belongs to what? you could have 50 pools working together.. blah...

It would be interesting if there could be a technological solution to this problem. Until then, it's up to the miners to keep the network healthy for their own good. Also, an attack from a collusion of 50 pools is much more difficult than an attack from 1 pool. The more decentralized the network is, the more secure it becomes.

Nesetalis

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hmm.. perhaps in this case it may be best if there is a safeguard built in to bitcoin to prevent shares greater than 30% on a single pool? then again, how do you determine who belongs to what? you could have 50 pools working together.. blah...

rezin777

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Quote from: Dude65535 on May 17, 2011, 04:56:43 PM

A pool operator would have to be able to pull off a very large double spend to offset the long term losses from people leaving the pool for good.

The idea is that the motivation isn't economic.

The idea is that it can happen for any reason, and it can happen much easier if the main prerequisite for the attack is already in place: one person controlling >50% of the network.

The idea is that it doesn't necessarily even have to be the pool operator that does the attack.

The idea is that trust in Bitcoin, and thus the value of Bitcoins, will be lost because of the attack.

The idea is that it is in the best interests of everyone who mines Bitcoins to voluntarily keep the network healthy in order to prevent the possibility of such an attack from occurring in the first place.

Dude65535

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A pool operator would have to be able to pull off a very large double spend to offset the long term losses from people leaving the pool for good.

M4v3R

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Quote

Pushpool is nice, but it's not a complete solution. For instance, there's no front end to provide a web interface and manage workers and payouts.

Just make a bounty and I'll happily build one.

Dayofswords

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Quote from: Grinder on May 17, 2011, 12:15:34 PM

Slush is too unstable

If you're thinking about that time it went down, that was literally the only time I've ever seen or had trouble with his pool.

error

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Quote from: xf2_org on May 17, 2011, 04:14:06 PM

Quote from: sirius on May 17, 2011, 01:20:22 PM

Is there any open source pool software yet? Might help if anyone could easily set up their pool.

Sigh, read your own forums, open source pool software has been mentioned repeatedly

URL: https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool

Pushpool is nice, but it's not a complete solution. For instance, there's no front end to provide a web interface and manage workers and payouts.

xf2_org

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Quote from: sirius on May 17, 2011, 01:20:22 PM

Is there any open source pool software yet? Might help if anyone could easily set up their pool.

Sigh, read your own forums, open source pool software has been mentioned repeatedly

URL: https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool

[Tycho]

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Quote from: alexdrans on May 17, 2011, 02:06:09 PM

Has Deepbit.net gone down?

The pool's site was unavailable for a few seconds - I was installing HTTPS/SSL support :) Done now.

speeder

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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

Ok, example of danger of big pools while not offending them:

How to corrupt the bitcoin network:

First, create a computer with hashing power that is a little bigger than the entire network - slush - deepbit - elegius.
Second, prepare that computer to do whatever skewed thing you want to do.
Third, DDoS deepbit, slush and elegius.
Fourth, turn on the computer that you built, and enjoy your 51% of network power while the 3 DDoSed pools scramble to get back up.
Fifth... sell all your BTC?
Sixth... profit as the market crash in desperation?

gkolt

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Quote from: sirius on May 17, 2011, 01:20:22 PM

Is there any open source pool software yet? Might help if anyone could easily set up their pool.

Yup, that would help.

And, thats what I'm looking for right now.
This way, I can start my own mining pool with friends and such.

Topic: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security - page 8. (Read 32360 times)