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legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
August 24, 2015, 02:28:02 AM
That's all you can. Spitting ad hominem.
Jorge Stolfi is doing better.

As with Jorge, you cannot make a statement any more true by virtue of speaking it aloud. The rest of us feel this need for their arguments to make sense.


"The rest of us..." Are you one of those collectivist us-men who blieve to be in a position to speak for the rest of the world.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
August 24, 2015, 02:18:12 AM
That's all you can. Spitting ad hominem.
Jorge Stolfi is doing better.

As with Jorge, you cannot make a statement any more true by virtue of speaking it aloud. The rest of us feel this need for their arguments to make sense.

 
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
August 24, 2015, 02:13:36 AM
I've missed these, but in fairness it could be my own fault.  I follow only trolltalk and some of the links provided from here.  I don't even follow the commits anymore. [ ... ] I guess you are missing the forest for the trees perhaps.  The idea that anyone can grab a reference implementation and do their own sidechain makes it kind of obvious to me how sidechains could solve the scaling problems and add a whole bunch more desirable niceties to the ecosystem as well.

It was one of the devs (Peter Todd maybe) who wrote on reddit that Sidechains are not a solution for scaling.  For some time now, I haven't seen them claim that they are.  Sidechains are still said to be ways to test all sorts of alternative ideas without endangering Bitcoin itself.

As for myself, I have read the Oct/2014 whitepaper with some care,  It mentions many examples of things that COULD be Sidechains of bitcoin; but I still don't know what CANNOT be a sidechain.  

One fundamental property is that each sidechain is supposed to be designed, implemented, and managed by an independent team.  Therefore the bitcoin developers cannot give any assurances that the sidechain will do what it claims to do, or will follow any constraints.  

According to the paper, a sidechain can even have its own tokens, not pegged to the bitcoins that were exported to it.  I cannot see how the sidechains could help bitcoin scale to hundreds of millions of users -- except by being altcoins independent of bitcoin.

The idea is that the sidechains are merge-mined, Jorge, on account of using the same hashing algorithm. So the miners will all be the same, except that a proportion of them will mine the other chains too, however they decide their capacity can be best utilised.

But of course, you knew that already.

@ wider bitcointalk: I and seemingly everyone else don't always have time to reply to all of this gizzard of a troll's willful distortions and contortions, suffice to say that unaddressed Stolfi posts are still staggeringly dishonest despite that. This man, and others like him, will be shunned throughout the remainder of this century when their conceits are fully exposed to the public.

That's all you can. Spitting ad hominem.
Jorge Stolfi is doing better.
hero member
Activity: 722
Merit: 500
August 24, 2015, 02:02:24 AM
It makes me very hopeful that bitcoin will collapse -- not under external attacks, as bitcoiners always feared, but from the greed and mistakes of its defenders.  It will be fun to watch...

I have no interest in seeing the real collapse further than it has already and wish Brazilians in general no harm but in your case I hope the real goes to zero.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
August 24, 2015, 02:00:25 AM

It was one of the devs (Peter Todd maybe) who wrote on reddit that Sidechains are not a solution for scaling.  For some time now, I haven't seen them claim that they are.  Sidechains are still said to be ways to test all sorts of alternative ideas without endangering Bitcoin itself.

Last I heard, Todd has nothing to do with Blockstream other than he throws rocks at them as is his nature.  Philosophically, I like his treechains idea better but I see it as at best impractical and maybe impossible.  As I see it, what I had in 2011 called 'subordinate chains' have a wide and diverse set of advantages.  You've quasi-listed a few.

As for myself, I have read the Oct/2014 whitepaper with some care,  It mentions many examples of things that COULD be Sidechains of bitcoin; but I still don't know what CANNOT be a sidechain.  

One fundamental property is that each sidechain is supposed to be designed, implemented, and managed by an independent team.  Therefore the bitcoin developers cannot give any assurances that the sidechain will do what it claims to do, or will follow any constraints.  

According to the paper, a sidechain can even have its own tokens, not pegged to the bitcoins that were exported to it.  I cannot see how the sidechains could help bitcoin scale to hundreds of millions of users -- except by being altcoins independent of bitcoin.

As I see it, the 'chain' part of 'sidechains' would be a bit of a misnomer.  I'd imagine all sidecoins to have a chain to use as an interface layer but not necessarily as a back-end.  I would hope that it is close to true to say that there is not much which 'cannot' be a sidecoin.  I've argued (sort of) to Adam that a token back-end makes more sense for a lot of use-cases than a '(now)classic' chain-based system.  Of course I'm limited in what I can 'teach' Dr. Back about...well...almost anything.

As for Blockstream's 'design, implementation, and management', I've seen nothing which indicates that it will differ from any other open-source project and nothing to be threatened by (unless you have a burning need to feel threatened of course.)  If that changes, so will my stance toward Blockstream.  And, I expect, so will many of those who are currently organized under that tent.

Blockstream either said straight-out or I inferred that that intend to produce an open-source reference implementation for sidechains.  In that case, anyone could pick up the ball and run with it.

Quote
As for LN, I have not followed it that closely.  My impression is that it is subtly different from how I envision sidechains, but very interesting technology which will be valuable to develop and experiment with if nothing else.

The LN is very different from sidechains.  It executed payments by means of "bitcoin IOUs" that are guaranteed by actual bitcoins that were locked by users for a predetermined time.  While sidechains are too unconstrained, the LN is too constrained.  

From all that I know, it has some formidable practical problems, like requiring that users lock in advance all the bitcoins that they intend to spend for the next 6 months into bank-like entities.

I have asked about these problems directly to Adam Back, Luke Jr, and a few other developers, including Joseph Poon, one of the LN inventors.  The dialogue always ends at that point.

The thing about LN that really impressed me was the 'slack'.  Once in a while I pull the keys out of my pocket and a quarter comes with them and falls in a gutter.  That does not stop me from using coins and having pocket change.  From an engineering perspective there is a huge amount to be gained by having a little room for error.  That the designers were cognizant of this impressed me...although it is rather obvious to anyone who has done systems work.

I'll not speak for the LN developers, but as a general design goal a fraud-proofing perspective, the most critical thing is to not allow an operator to profit from fraud.  This will almost completely evaporate many forms of fraud from even being attempted.  A distant second priority would be how long it takes me to get my value back in the event of a failure (which I would expect to be an uncommon event and one I may never see.)

Well, right now, if they control Blockstream, they control the future of Bitcoin...
Considering that most of the Bitcoin 'core developers' who are worth a shit are involved, that would be true with or without the Blockstream umbrella.

The fact that sidechains and Blockstream has you (Stolfi) running scared is one of the best indicators yet that the may live up to the hopes I have for them.

So you don't mind having the bitcoin network literally owned by one company, which intends to make it unusable for its original purpose and to reuse it as an internal component of their nonsensical project... It makes me very hopeful that bitcoin will collapse -- not under external attacks, as bitcoiners always feared, but from the greed and mistakes of its defenders.  It will be fun to watch...

Blatant and bogus propaganda on several levels:

 - Open source means that they not only welcome competition but foster it.  So down goes the 'one company' BS.  Blockstream only need to do it better, and that is highly likely given the makeup of the entity.

 - Nothing about sidechains in any way detracts from the ability for individuals to use native Bitcoin except perhaps that they won't be subsidized and will thus have to pay transaction fees proportional to the cost of operating a secure system.

 - Given the level of talent who were induced to work on this project, you should think a little bit about who looks like a clown when you label it as 'nonsensical'.

I do sense that you are deeply hopeful that Bitcoin will collapse.  Again, I suspect that this is why Blockstream and sidechains bothers you so much.

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
August 24, 2015, 01:54:20 AM
I've missed these, but in fairness it could be my own fault.  I follow only trolltalk and some of the links provided from here.  I don't even follow the commits anymore. [ ... ] I guess you are missing the forest for the trees perhaps.  The idea that anyone can grab a reference implementation and do their own sidechain makes it kind of obvious to me how sidechains could solve the scaling problems and add a whole bunch more desirable niceties to the ecosystem as well.

It was one of the devs (Peter Todd maybe) who wrote on reddit that Sidechains are not a solution for scaling.  For some time now, I haven't seen them claim that they are.  Sidechains are still said to be ways to test all sorts of alternative ideas without endangering Bitcoin itself.

As for myself, I have read the Oct/2014 whitepaper with some care,  It mentions many examples of things that COULD be Sidechains of bitcoin; but I still don't know what CANNOT be a sidechain.  

One fundamental property is that each sidechain is supposed to be designed, implemented, and managed by an independent team.  Therefore the bitcoin developers cannot give any assurances that the sidechain will do what it claims to do, or will follow any constraints.  

According to the paper, a sidechain can even have its own tokens, not pegged to the bitcoins that were exported to it.  I cannot see how the sidechains could help bitcoin scale to hundreds of millions of users -- except by being altcoins independent of bitcoin.

The idea is that the sidechains are merge-mined, Jorge, on account of using the same hashing algorithm. So the miners will all be the same, except that a proportion of them will mine the other chains too, however they decide their capacity can be best utilised.

But of course, you knew that already.

@ wider bitcointalk: I and seemingly everyone else don't always have time to reply to all of this gizzard of a troll's willful distortions and contortions, suffice to say that unaddressed Stolfi posts are still staggeringly dishonest despite that. This man, and others like him, will be shunned throughout the remainder of this century when their conceits are fully exposed to the public.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
August 24, 2015, 01:09:13 AM
I've missed these, but in fairness it could be my own fault.  I follow only trolltalk and some of the links provided from here.  I don't even follow the commits anymore. [ ... ] I guess you are missing the forest for the trees perhaps.  The idea that anyone can grab a reference implementation and do their own sidechain makes it kind of obvious to me how sidechains could solve the scaling problems and add a whole bunch more desirable niceties to the ecosystem as well.

It was one of the devs (Peter Todd maybe) who wrote on reddit that Sidechains are not a solution for scaling.  For some time now, I haven't seen them claim that they are.  Sidechains are still said to be ways to test all sorts of alternative ideas without endangering Bitcoin itself.

As for myself, I have read the Oct/2014 whitepaper with some care,  It mentions many examples of things that COULD be Sidechains of bitcoin; but I still don't know what CANNOT be a sidechain.  

One fundamental property is that each sidechain is supposed to be designed, implemented, and managed by an independent team.  Therefore the bitcoin developers cannot give any assurances that the sidechain will do what it claims to do, or will follow any constraints.  

According to the paper, a sidechain can even have its own tokens, not pegged to the bitcoins that were exported to it.  I cannot see how the sidechains could help bitcoin scale to hundreds of millions of users -- except by being altcoins independent of bitcoin.

Well, right now, if they control Blockstream, they control the future of Bitcoin...
Considering that most of the Bitcoin 'core developers' who are worth a shit are involved, that would be true with or without the Blockstream umbrella.

The fact that sidechains and Blockstream has you (Stolfi) running scared is one of the best indicators yet that the may live up to the hopes I have for them.

So you don't mind having the bitcoin network literally owned by one company, which intends to make it unusable for its original purpose and to reuse it as an internal component of their nonsensical project... It makes me very hopeful that bitcoin will collapse -- not under external attacks, as bitcoiners always feared, but from the greed and mistakes of its defenders.  It will be fun to watch...
legendary
Activity: 1593
Merit: 1004
August 23, 2015, 08:18:06 PM
meono is a cunt.

do not listen to a single word of his poisonous speech. just look at his signature.

i even wonder if he is a NSA/CIA/whatever troll paid to spill his venom amongst the real and free bitcoin community.

You obviously did not read his speech because you just confirmed it with your helpful wisdom.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
August 23, 2015, 07:31:32 PM
unless you have a Golden Priority Pass signed by Satoshi himself, there is no reason to suppose that your transactions will be confirmed faster than those of your peers.  Therefore you can expect to have your transactions delayed by hours, even though you will pay a lot more than you pay now.  

Have you not got any old outputs you could use in amongst all those Bitcoin's that you buy on a regular basis, Jorge?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
August 23, 2015, 06:51:20 PM

6)  Develop technology which safely allows 80,000 people to ride one bus with little or no difference in compfort and maintanance costs.

Rather:  "6) tell your investors that you have invented a fantastic technology which safely allows 80,000 people to ride one bus with little or no difference in compfort and maintanance costs."

Quote
Developing such technology is more challenging that the simplistic ideas of 'buy more buses', or 'charge more per ticket.' 

You bet it is.  That must be why Adam Back has ignored all hard technical questions about the "fee market" and the Lightning Network, and instead has been relentlessly spewing out baseless FUD and ad-hominems for the last two months.  "Let Blockstream decide the future of Bitcoin, because Mark is a CIA agent".  And it is working, it seems...

I've missed these, but in fairness it could be my own fault.  I follow only trolltalk and some of the links provided from here.  I don't even follow the commits anymore.

Quote
That seems to be the task that Blockstream is undertaking with their 'elements' suite of innovations.

AFAIK not even Blockstream claims that Sidechains will solve the scaling problem.  Their pie in the sky now is the Lightning Network, which seems to be just as plausible as an 80'000 passenger bus...

I guess you are missing the forest for the trees perhaps.  The idea that anyone can grab a reference implementation and do their own sidechain makes it kind of obvious to me how sidechains could solve the scaling problems and add a whole bunch more desirable niceties to the ecosystem as well.

As for LN, I have not followed it that closely.  My impression is that it is subtly different from how I envision sidechains, but very interesting technology which will be valuable to develop and experiment with if nothing else.  I figured that perhaps continuing development on LN might have been a way to draw in some of the high-end technical talent that was already working on it no matter what it becomes.

Quote
I could see [ the banking ] sector promoting something like XT which gives them the hope of monopolizing the take from a centralized and controlled solution just as they do with most fiat systems today.

Well, right now, if they control Blockstream, they control the future of Bitcoin...

Considering that most of the Bitcoin 'core developers' who are worth a shit are involved, that would be true with or without the Blockstream umbrella.

The fact that sidechains and Blockstream has you (Stolfi) running scared is one of the best indicators yet that the may live up to the hopes I have for them.

hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
August 23, 2015, 06:40:08 PM
There will be zero traffic jams even with full blocks, the stress tests proved that. The stress test provided definitive evidence in favor of no blocksize increase, ironically enough.

The stress tests were not traffic jams.  They created a huge backlog but with a fixed low fee (0.2 mBTC/kB), so anyone who paid more than that got through with no problem.

Even so, at one moment when I checked the queue, there were at least 5'000 transactions that paid less than that, and were therefore delayed until the backlog cleared.  The total number of transactions that were blocked by the three big stress tests must have been a lot more than that.

Presumably, the thousands of users who issued those transactions were not aware of the fee/priority thing, or had no way of setting a higher than normal fee, or were not aware that the "stress test" was going on.  I suspect that they were not particularly thrilled with bitcoin's quality of service.  

Could that be the reason why the average traffic is now ~110'000 tx/day, or ~8000 tx/dat less than it was in mid-June?  (By the trend of the previous 12 months, it should have been ~10'000 tx/day more.)

In a real traffic jam, you will not be competing against a "stress tester" who pays fixed fees, but against other user like you who are trying to push you out of the next blocks so that their transactions can get in.

Smart wallets and tools like RBF and CPFP will not reduce the average wait time by one second.  SO, unless you have a Golden Priority Pass signed by Satoshi himself, there is no reason to suppose that your transactions will be confirmed faster than those of your peers.  Therefore you can expect to have your transactions delayed by hours, even though you will pay a lot more than you pay now.  
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
August 23, 2015, 06:22:17 PM
You own a bus company and you are losing money because you have 1 bus, only enough customers to fill 60% of its capacity on average, and 20 employees  with fat salaries in an expensive rented office. You are charging 1 $ of fare, but you are spending 200 $ for each passenger that your carry. However passengers are increasing and by next year you know that you will have to leave passengers waiting for hours at peak hours and times.  What would you do to fix your financial situation:

(1) get a loan from the bank, buy another 7 buses and hope that somehow it will be enough

(2) raise the fare to 200 $ per passenger

(3) wait until next year and then let the passengers negotiate the fare with the driver by a blind auction on the platform.

(4) fire all employees except 1 driver and 1 mechanic, close the main office and move to a back-office in the garage

(5) file for bankruptcy protection.

6)  Develop technology which safely allows 80,000 people to ride one bus with little or no difference in compfort and maintanance costs.

Rather:  "6) tell your investors that you have invented a fantastic technology which safely allows 80,000 people to ride one bus with little or no difference in compfort and maintanance costs."

Quote
Developing such technology is more challenging that the simplistic ideas of 'buy more buses', or 'charge more per ticket.' 

You bet it is.  That must be why Adam Back has ignored all hard technical questions about the "fee market" and the Lightning Network, and instead has been relentlessly spewing out baseless FUD and ad-hominems for the last two months.  "Let Blockstream decide the future of Bitcoin, because Mark is a CIA agent".  And it is working, it seems...

Quote
That seems to be the task that Blockstream is undertaking with their 'elements' suite of innovations.

AFAIK not even Blockstream claims that Sidechains will solve the scaling problem.  Their pie in the sky now is the Lightning Network, which seems to be just as plausible as an 80'000 passenger bus...

Quote
I could see [ the banking ] sector promoting something like XT which gives them the hope of monopolizing the take from a centralized and controlled solution just as they do with most fiat systems today.

Well, right now, if they control Blockstream, they control the future of Bitcoin...

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
August 23, 2015, 03:54:02 PM
Maybe crowd is the wrong word.  Voters, Node-owners, active bitcoiners, whatever term you want to use, are going to make an informed or uninformed decision whether to switch or not.  
Well you would ask for one to asses the situation specifically tied to cryptocurrencies which would require real research in order for sufficient evidence to surface. I'm not exactly sure how one could call all of that with one word.

Are you saying that the decision will be based on flawed logic regardless, because crowds are manipulated?  If so, then bitcoin is doomed anyway.  Because that is the protocol's tie-breaker.
No. I was trying to say that while the decision will not necessarily be based on flawed logic, it is very likely (if we "just let things happen").



Then it all goes wrong here.  It's all well and good asking for an end to the ad-hominem nonsense, but you're still implying an insult to peoples' intelligence when you say "Hearn would be able to sell you blacklisting in the future".  Your argument is essentially saying that you can't trust people to make intelligent decisions in future, so you have to prevent their right to choose now.  

-snip-
That was not my intention. I was using that as an example (in this case) of possible crowd manipulation. I was not implying, nor intentionally trying to insult anyone's intelligence. I can't be a judge of that, as it is almost impossible to be objective about it.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
August 23, 2015, 03:50:12 PM
meono is a cunt.

do not listen to a single word of his poisonous speech. just look at his signature.

i even wonder if he is a NSA/CIA/whatever troll paid to spill his venom amongst the real and free bitcoin community.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 23, 2015, 03:05:11 PM
bitcoin xt considered harmful
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 23, 2015, 02:41:05 PM
You're thinking of a mob, I said crowd.
Augur is going to make millions off the crowd.
I'm going to assume that you've never had any sociology classes? The wisdom of a crowd is biased and it is much easier to manipulate. They are a lot of ways for one to manipulate a crowd to agree with a controversial idea, thus we should not rely on the crowd's 'wisdom' to pick the right way forward (Core or XT as an example, in this scenario). Crowd manipulation is often used in politics and business. Here's a example of a technique: To get a crowd to agree to a controversial idea (e.g. blacklisting), you first start talking about things that the crowd agrees with or believes in. This way you are starting to build up trust, and then you can proceed to start talking about the more disagreeable stuff. There was actually a good study about this not long ago.


So back to the topic now. Obviously many have appealed to authority in this debate, which is wrong. Just because someone has a strong position or reputation, that doesn't necessarily mean that what they are preaching is probably correct. The argument from authority is not a logical argument. The problem is that people are not seeing the obvious and are being manipulated. XT has implemented a few other things that they present as "features" and people are buying it. I'm pretty sure that Hearn would be able to sell you blacklisting in the future if XT was to take off (which is problematic).
This is why it is necessary to try and have a healthy discussion and keep the ad hominem and similar nonsense aside, else we will not be moving forward.
Maybe crowd is the wrong word.  Voters, Node-owners, active bitcoiners, whatever term you want to use, are going to make an informed or uninformed decision whether to switch or not.  I have faith that the majority will decide in the best interest of bitcoin.
Are you saying that the decision will be based on flawed logic regardless, because crowds are manipulated?  If so, then bitcoin is doomed anyway.  

I think what you meant to say is economic majority, you know the crowd that got the most to lose in this. There is no point arguing with a bunch of hyporites.

 They say the crowd can be easily manipulated yet they're doing just that. They force their opinions, not facts, on anyone who's learning about this fork issue. They claim Mike and Gavin are dictators while they only accept decision from a handful of people (core team) and discard anything elses. I have a feeling if BIP101 was rolled out by core, no one even asked questions on the merits of such decision.

Its gone so bad that this FUD thread popped up to cause more damages. Most dont even care, thay just love to have the mob mentality to bashing what they dont like.

BitcoinXT has been out way longer than the BIP101. Fact.

BitcoinXT can be forked to remove any local policies such as antiDoS feature any time by anyone if the majority desire. Fact

Choose BitcoinXT to support BIP101 does not mean picking Mike or Gavin as "leaders". So bashing their characters is a polictical move. Fact

Most people on here dont have a technical ability to read codes but quickly jump to conclusion then go as far as bashing anyone who asked for proof is a fine example of mod mentality. Fact.


Then once in a while you find a level head (rare gems) in this jungle,
You are free to make choices now, you weren't able to few weeks ago.

No one is forcing the network to choose BIP101.

Everyone that is against the freedom of choice is blinded, or in bad faith.

legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
August 23, 2015, 02:29:53 PM
Obviously many have appealed to authority in this debate, which is wrong. Just because someone has a strong position or reputation, that doesn't necessarily mean that what they are preaching is probably correct. The argument from authority is not a logical argument. The problem is that people are not seeing the obvious and are being manipulated.

This much I agree with.


XT has implemented a few other things that they present as "features" and people are buying it. I'm pretty sure that Hearn would be able to sell you blacklisting in the future if XT was to take off (which is problematic).
This is why it is necessary to try and have a healthy discussion and keep the ad hominem and similar nonsense aside, else we will not be moving forward.

Then it all goes wrong here.  It's all well and good asking for an end to the ad-hominem nonsense, but you're still implying an insult to peoples' intelligence when you say "Hearn would be able to sell you blacklisting in the future".  Your argument is essentially saying that you can't trust people to make intelligent decisions in future, so you have to prevent their right to choose now.  

Also, the only ones buying anything here are the people who have read this thread and now genuinely believe that using core will somehow magically prevent IP logging and blacklisting, while XT has only just introduced this possibility, which (speaking of "not seeing the obvious") is complete horseshit.  The ability to log or blacklist IPs has always been there.  Any node can log or blacklist IPs if they choose to.  Core or XT makes no difference in that regard.
hero member
Activity: 722
Merit: 500
August 23, 2015, 02:22:13 PM
Maybe crowd is the wrong word.  Voters, Node-owners, active bitcoiners, whatever term you want to use, are going to make an informed or uninformed decision whether to switch or not.  I have faith that the majority will decide in the best interest of bitcoin.


Nooshphere?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
August 23, 2015, 02:19:10 PM
Are you saying that the decision will be based on flawed logic regardless, because crowds are manipulated?  If so, then bitcoin is doomed anyway.  Because that is the protocol's tie-breaker.

Let the chips fall where they may. Even if the outcome that I dislike most becomes reality (worst possibilities realised, TotalitarianCoin), then I think someone out there will be motivated enough to pick up the pieces and come up with a more robust model. I would help in any way I could.
legendary
Activity: 1593
Merit: 1004
August 23, 2015, 02:14:10 PM
You're thinking of a mob, I said crowd.
Augur is going to make millions off the crowd.
I'm going to assume that you've never had any sociology classes? The wisdom of a crowd is biased and it is much easier to manipulate. They are a lot of ways for one to manipulate a crowd to agree with a controversial idea, thus we should not rely on the crowd's 'wisdom' to pick the right way forward (Core or XT as an example, in this scenario). Crowd manipulation is often used in politics and business. Here's a example of a technique: To get a crowd to agree to a controversial idea (e.g. blacklisting), you first start talking about things that the crowd agrees with or believes in. This way you are starting to build up trust, and then you can proceed to start talking about the more disagreeable stuff. There was actually a good study about this not long ago.


So back to the topic now. Obviously many have appealed to authority in this debate, which is wrong. Just because someone has a strong position or reputation, that doesn't necessarily mean that what they are preaching is probably correct. The argument from authority is not a logical argument. The problem is that people are not seeing the obvious and are being manipulated. XT has implemented a few other things that they present as "features" and people are buying it. I'm pretty sure that Hearn would be able to sell you blacklisting in the future if XT was to take off (which is problematic).
This is why it is necessary to try and have a healthy discussion and keep the ad hominem and similar nonsense aside, else we will not be moving forward.
Maybe crowd is the wrong word.  Voters, Node-owners, active bitcoiners, whatever term you want to use, are going to make an informed or uninformed decision whether to switch or not.  I have faith that the majority will decide in the best interest of bitcoin.
Are you saying that the decision will be based on flawed logic regardless, because crowds are manipulated?  If so, then bitcoin is doomed anyway.  Because that is the protocol's tie-breaker.
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