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legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 21, 2015, 11:22:53 PM
why doesnt someone release bitcoin XT ?
only the good bits without the fork

and bitcoin XT90
forks at a 90%


--

hmm what other flavours can we have?

Yes, let's keep forking XT.

So far, we have XT and NotXT.

I like your suggestions for GoodXT and XT90.

So we'll also need NotGoodXT and NotXT90.

Oh, and GoodXT90/NotGoodXT90.

Can we make a BadXT, which has all the evil anti-Tor/blacklist BS but no block increase?

We'll get everyone so confused, both sides will somehow be deploying hundreds of NotBadXT nodes thinking that's helpful.  Cheesy

and XTNOW which forks as soon as it syncs ..

zomg brilliant lol

I would run the hell out of XTNOW.   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 500
August 21, 2015, 08:57:24 PM
Looks like XT is a piece of shady bullshit. What will be in the next version ? Direct reporting to NSA ?


I can't wait to see that version ! It will be a blockbuster =) .

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
August 21, 2015, 04:14:30 PM
just another reason to blacklist mike hearn and all of his ideas

gavin too.

ps: and who the hell is this Tom Harding? https://bitcoinxt.software/faq.html#who-is-involved
hero member
Activity: 482
Merit: 500
LAUNDER BITCOIN: https://BitLaunder.com
August 21, 2015, 04:13:19 PM
just another reason to blacklist mike hearn and all of his ideas
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 21, 2015, 04:02:09 PM

Except with a two-way peg, each of the sub-operators are completely dependant on the backing-store as their value basis.  If it fails, they fail.  Think of it as having a monopoly on the wrenches needed to keep any bus healthy no matter who owns or runs the buses.  They have no choice but to keep the backing store solution healthy.

As I say, there is clearly a lot of value to be had by a merchant in getting consumers on-board as evidenced by the the rewards programs.  A small fraction of this passed on to a tight and secure backing store (hopefully native Bitcoin in it's current 'free' form) may well be many many times the value to be had by simplistic transaction fees or even by the current rather high inflation rate.


You see, this is where I think the reality disconnect starts with sidechains. Are you suggesting that there is going to be a 1:1 peg by value with the token ( and I use that term generously, altcoin could also fit) used in the transport channel/sidechain and the value of the transaction being represented? E.g. If I want to transfer $100 fiat from my US office to my European branch via a company operating a sidechain, that the Bitcoin equivilent of $100 has to be 'locked' on the blockchain?

So in essence, the availability of the transaction is directly tied to liquidity in Bitcoin?  So if a sidechain operator wants to offer to transfer $100m, they must find and secure the equivalent Bitcoin. Sounds tricky.

What if it could be a 1:100 or 1:100,000,000 peg, as per my bus stop analogy?

You need to be able to visualize ratios.

My 1:100 example above, you can take it I can visualise ratios   Smiley

Quote from: tvbcof


When I say 'one-to-one', I'm not even indicating that individual sidechains would not have their own inflation/deflation.  I fully expect that many of them would.  People who decide to own coins on one sidechain or another would need to factor the management of a sidechain into their decision.

Sidechains when viewed from above would be rated specifically on how many Bitcoin's are pegged.

 1) foocoin has 1000 BTC pegged to it.  It's a '1000 BTC sidecoin.'

 2) There are 10,000 foocoins.  Thus, there are 10 foocoin to the BTC.

 3) Tomorrow the foocoin project changes to a circulation of 20,000 foocoins.

After #3 foocoin remains a '1000 BTC sidechain' irrespective of the internal circulation decisions.

Okay, so 1BTC can just as easily be 1:100,000,000 with respect to foocoin, because these are simply internal circulation decisions. Fair enough.

But what backing do they have? Does the sidechain intend to offer guarantees in a  manner that are compliant with CPSS settlement standards ? I know thats implementation specific, but a ball park answer would do. Do the bitcoins actually do that? And if they dont, whats the point?
If I do a settlement via a sidechain that's equivalent to say a swift mtxxx, I want to be sure that I have reduced any payment system risks (liquidity, credit & systemic risks) - I dont see (for now) where that is coming from when using foocoins, or even a fraction of a bitcoin.

I'm thinking the liquidity requirements would be quite high.

Quote from: tvbcof

As a user one needs to have confidence in the management of foocoin.  If you cannot achieve that confidence, don't buy any foocoins.  If you start to lose confidence, excersize your peg and bail back into Bitcoin, or move directly to another sidecoin.

What developers like Blockstream can do is to provide the tools so that you can protect your stake in the backing store.  For instance, mathematically gaurentee that if the foocoin circulation changes by more than x% in x amount of time, you automatically revert to holding the backing currency (which would be Bitcoin unless Heardresen destroy it as a 'free' currency first.)


As a Bank wishing to execute a settlement, I dont have to actually buy these foocoins? Do I assume the sidechain will allow end to end fiat?

tl;dr  I'm not saying sidechains wont work ( I think they could) but I'm failing to see how bitcoins are of any value to them.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
August 21, 2015, 02:45:45 PM

Except with a two-way peg, each of the sub-operators are completely dependant on the backing-store as their value basis.  If it fails, they fail.  Think of it as having a monopoly on the wrenches needed to keep any bus healthy no matter who owns or runs the buses.  They have no choice but to keep the backing store solution healthy.

As I say, there is clearly a lot of value to be had by a merchant in getting consumers on-board as evidenced by the the rewards programs.  A small fraction of this passed on to a tight and secure backing store (hopefully native Bitcoin in it's current 'free' form) may well be many many times the value to be had by simplistic transaction fees or even by the current rather high inflation rate.


You see, this is where I think the reality disconnect starts with sidechains. Are you suggesting that there is going to be a 1:1 peg by value with the token ( and I use that term generously, altcoin could also fit) used in the transport channel/sidechain and the value of the transaction being represented? E.g. If I want to transfer $100 fiat from my US office to my European branch via a company operating a sidechain, that the Bitcoin equivilent of $100 has to be 'locked' on the blockchain?

So in essence, the availability of the transaction is directly tied to liquidity in Bitcoin?  So if a sidechain operator wants to offer to transfer $100m, they must find and secure the equivalent Bitcoin. Sounds tricky.

What if it could be a 1:100 or 1:100,000,000 peg, as per my bus stop analogy?

You need to be able to visualize ratios.

When I say 'one-to-one', I'm not even indicating that individual sidechains would not have their own inflation/deflation.  I fully expect that many of them would.  People who decide to own coins on one sidechain or another would need to factor the management of a sidechain into their decision.

Sidechains when viewed from above would be rated specifically on how many Bitcoin's are pegged.

 1) foocoin has 1000 BTC pegged to it.  It's a '1000 BTC sidecoin.'

 2) There are 10,000 foocoins.  Thus, there are 10 foocoin to the BTC.

 3) Tomorrow the foocoin project changes to a circulation of 20,000 foocoins.

After #3 foocoin remains a '1000 BTC sidechain' irrespective of the internal circulation decisions.

As a user one needs to have confidence in the management of foocoin.  If you cannot achieve that confidence, don't buy any foocoins.  If you start to lose confidence, excersize your peg and bail back into Bitcoin, or move directly to another sidecoin.

What developers like Blockstream can do is to provide the tools so that you can protect your stake in the backing store.  For instance, mathematically gaurentee that if the foocoin circulation changes by more than x% in x amount of time, you automatically revert to holding the backing currency (which would be Bitcoin unless Heardresen destroy it as a 'free' currency first.)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 21, 2015, 02:24:06 PM

Except with a two-way peg, each of the sub-operators are completely dependant on the backing-store as their value basis.  If it fails, they fail.  Think of it as having a monopoly on the wrenches needed to keep any bus healthy no matter who owns or runs the buses.  They have no choice but to keep the backing store solution healthy.

As I say, there is clearly a lot of value to be had by a merchant in getting consumers on-board as evidenced by the the rewards programs.  A small fraction of this passed on to a tight and secure backing store (hopefully native Bitcoin in it's current 'free' form) may well be many many times the value to be had by simplistic transaction fees or even by the current rather high inflation rate.


You see, this is where I think the reality disconnect starts with sidechains. Are you suggesting that there is going to be a 1:1 peg by value with the token ( and I use that term generously, altcoin could also fit) used in the transport channel/sidechain and the value of the transaction being represented? E.g. If I want to transfer $100 fiat from my US office to my European branch via a company operating a sidechain, that the Bitcoin equivilent of $100 has to be 'locked' on the blockchain?

So in essence, the availability of the transaction is directly tied to liquidity in Bitcoin?  So if a sidechain operator wants to offer to transfer $100m, they must find and secure the equivalent Bitcoin. Sounds tricky.

What if it could be a 1:100 or 1:100,000,000 peg, as per my bus stop analogy?
BNO
full member
Activity: 157
Merit: 100
August 21, 2015, 01:40:57 PM
read Ars Technica and understand why we need XT:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/08/op-ed-why-is-bitcoin-forking/
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
August 21, 2015, 01:36:19 PM


6)  Develop technology which safely allows 80,000 people to ride one bus with little or no difference in compfort and maintanance costs.

 - Now each passenger pays the expected modest fee and the bus company has enough income to operate a very secure business.

Developing such technology is more challenging that the simplistic ideas of 'buy more buses', or 'charge more per ticket.'  That seems to be the task that Blockstream is undertaking with their 'elements' suite of innovations.

sidechains could aggregate the activity of thousands of sidechain transactions to a single on-chain transaction.  Even a tiny transaction fee at the user level passed up to the Bitcoin backing layer would support very robust infrastructure.

I would add that merchants of a certain size will provide pretty decent savings to customers who will participate in their company 'rewards program' or use company gift cards.  If the merchant had their own branded currency system it must be worth at least as much to them as a silly little rewards card.  This could bring a tsunami of value into what I've always called a 'subordinate chains' cypto-currency ecosystem.  Sidechains would be an example but the word was not coined when I started promoting that scaling mechanism.

Seems to me that what Blockstream is shooting for is to be recognized as a trusted authority both technically and ethically in a world where sidechains are a major economic player.  If a 'branded currency' is a useful thing to large corporations, they (unlike a gaggle of plebs) have the muscle to induce governments to lighten up and allow them to at least exist.

I would never expect the financial services industry proper to be very supportive of real sidechains operating under a 'free' backing store since they are doing very well under the current fully controlled systems.  I could see this sector promoting something like XT which gives them the hope of monopolizing the take from a centralized and controlled solution just as they do with most fiat systems today.



Except that what you are doing is effectively "dressing" up the bus company to be contracted out to a 3rd party operator. That operator runs the buses, invests in new buses that are entirely his. collects the fares and manages the majority of the business. Then you tell your shareholders that they never owned the buses in the first place - only the bus stops.  But you originally thought there was a limited number of stops, you now find that their are 100,000,000 bus stops where previously you had one. Your bus stop is virtually valueless. The buses go by full.

Except with a two-way peg, each of the sub-operators are completely dependant on the backing-store as their value basis.  If it fails, they fail.  Think of it as having a monopoly on the wrenches needed to keep any bus healthy no matter who owns or runs the buses.  They have no choice but to keep the backing store solution healthy.

As I say, there is clearly a lot of value to be had by a merchant in getting consumers on-board as evidenced by the the rewards programs.  A small fraction of this passed on to a tight and secure backing store (hopefully native Bitcoin in it's current 'free' form) may well be many many times the value to be had by simplistic transaction fees or even by the current rather high inflation rate.


80,000 to a bus??? Thats exactly why you shouldn't be in charge.  Grin

Making Bitcoin be everything to everyone is like 80,000/bus supercharged, amped on meth, and shot full of on steroids.  That's why Hearndresen should not be in charge.


legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
August 21, 2015, 12:31:46 PM
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 21, 2015, 11:30:23 AM
There will be zero traffic jams even with full blocks, the stress tests proved that. The stress test provided definitive evidence in favor of no blocksize increase, ironically enough.

Liar! Liar! Pants On Fire!

From one of your shills fellow travellers during that event:

How are developers responding to this severe limitation of Bitcoin's usage. There are currently 72000 (!) unconfirmed transactions but it seems they don't really want to acknowledge it.

Perhaps set a limit of tx/s to discourage spamming the mempool and block malicious nodes.

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 21, 2015, 10:47:29 AM
Too many "cooks", spoil the broth.

How is anyone who can't understand code (and I presume this to be the majority of Bitcoin users) meant to be able to make an informed decision over this issue? Any "ordinary" person, that is, someone with zero. or little coding knowledge, is just gonna feel very confused and inadequate and sell all their BTC until (or if) this thing blows over.

IS THIS WHAT ANYONE WANTS???

There isn't an issue.  Problem solved.

The (highly misleading) premise of the thread is that using Bitcoin core means you're somehow magically immune from IP logging and blacklisting but XT has just suddenly introduced those concepts because they are teh evils.  This is empirically false.  Any peer to peer software, whether it be filesharing networks, Bitcoin or something else entirely, can log your IP.  Whoever has logged your IP can then attempt to trace it.  They can pass your IP on to third parties including law enforcement agencies.  They can ban or blacklist your IP from their server.  That's ANY network, INCLUDING Bitcoin core.  This is not something unique to XT and anyone who believes it is doesn't know how the internet works, let alone Bitcoin.  

If I run a node, whether it's Core or XT, I can log your IP and ban you from my node.  It's my node.  I can do whatever I want with it.  If I want to ban you, I'm within my right to do that.  Core or XT makes no difference in this regard.

Hell, the admins of this very forum can log/trace/forward/ban your IP if they want.  If you are fearful about the issue of protecting your IP, please disconnect your device from the internet now.

Everyone needs to stop jumping at shadows and calm the fuck down.

Bear in mind also the fact that privacy concerned bitcoiners will more than likely be running their node behind a proxy or through tor. In that case, bitcoinXT behaves EXACTLY THE SAME as Core.
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
August 21, 2015, 10:47:08 AM
Mainstream media is completely ignoring this controversy even though it is a much more important debate than block size, and a juicy story. Probably due to a combination of ignorance and also because it'll reveal their previous round of panic inducing articles are way off mark.



I've seen it mentioned a few times, though most people in the mainstream wont care about it or even care about bitcoin and like you say its not exactly an exciting story.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 21, 2015, 10:42:44 AM
comparing bitcoin to buses. so smart.

Bitcoin forks are a bit like a bus, you wait for years for one, and then 6 turn up at once.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
August 21, 2015, 10:40:13 AM
comparing bitcoin to buses. so smart.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
August 21, 2015, 10:31:26 AM


6)  Develop technology which safely allows 80,000 people to ride one bus with little or no difference in compfort and maintanance costs.

 - Now each passenger pays the expected modest fee and the bus company has enough income to operate a very secure business.

Developing such technology is more challenging that the simplistic ideas of 'buy more buses', or 'charge more per ticket.'  That seems to be the task that Blockstream is undertaking with their 'elements' suite of innovations.

sidechains could aggregate the activity of thousands of sidechain transactions to a single on-chain transaction.  Even a tiny transaction fee at the user level passed up to the Bitcoin backing layer would support very robust infrastructure.

I would add that merchants of a certain size will provide pretty decent savings to customers who will participate in their company 'rewards program' or use company gift cards.  If the merchant had their own branded currency system it must be worth at least as much to them as a silly little rewards card.  This could bring a tsunami of value into what I've always called a 'subordinate chains' cypto-currency ecosystem.  Sidechains would be an example but the word was not coined when I started promoting that scaling mechanism.

Seems to me that what Blockstream is shooting for is to be recognized as a trusted authority both technically and ethically in a world where sidechains are a major economic player.  If a 'branded currency' is a useful thing to large corporations, they (unlike a gaggle of plebs) have the muscle to induce governments to lighten up and allow them to at least exist.

I would never expect the financial services industry proper to be very supportive of real sidechains operating under a 'free' backing store since they are doing very well under the current fully controlled systems.  I could see this sector promoting something like XT which gives them the hope of monopolizing the take from a centralized and controlled solution just as they do with most fiat systems today.



Except that what you are doing is effectively "dressing" up the bus company to be contracted out to a 3rd party operator. That operator runs the buses, invests in new buses that are entirely his. collects the fares and manages the majority of the business. Then you tell your shareholders that they never owned the buses in the first place - only the bus stops.  But you originally thought there was a limited number of stops, you now find that their are 100,000,000 bus stops where previously you had one. Your bus stop is virtually valueless. The buses go by full.

80,000 to a bus??? Thats exactly why you shouldn't be in charge.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
August 21, 2015, 10:18:43 AM
I keep seeing people talk about blockstream, who are they and what do they do?

A for-profit structure consisting of a startling number of the most prolific and trusted people in the current crypto-currency space.  Including those who wrote most of the code used in Bitcoin today.  They seem to be focused on more complex cryptographic innovations that would allow, say, an individual to send money to a services (say Mt. Gox) but in such a way that the service had no real way to abscond with it.  Also a variety of privacy innovations and such.

Maxwell did a nice rundown of their first block of released work and it is linked on their website.  I think this is the one I watched when it came out and I found it worthwhile and interesting:  http://www.blockstream.com/2015/04/24/gregory-maxwell-talks-at-sf-bitcoin-devs-meetup/

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
August 21, 2015, 09:53:54 AM
Actually blocksize is almost certainly not a real issue, here's my take on it. Evidence supporting this is quite solid. Alot of people were suspicious as to what the real motive of XT was since they knew blocksize isnt a dire situation.

Funny that no one seems curious about what the motives of Blockstream may be...


Quote
1) Bitcoin block rewards will eventually become infinitesimal, at that point transaction fees will be the only rewards miners get. Right now transaction fees are around 0.1-0.5 BTC per block, which is nowhere near enough funding to secure the network by itself. We need transaction fees to go up, and the only thing that will force them up is the blocksize limit. Increasing block size might cause fundamental damage to Bitcoin due to this.

You own a bus company and you are losing money because you have 1 bus, only enough customers to fill 60% of its capacity on average, and 20 employees  with fat salaries in an expensive rented office. You are charging 1 $ of fare, but you are spending 200 $ for each passenger that your carry. However passengers are increasing and by next year you know that you will have to leave passengers waiting for hours at peak hours and times.  What would you do to fix your financial situation:

(1) get a loan from the bank, buy another 7 buses and hope that somehow it will be enough

(2) raise the fare to 200 $ per passenger

(3) wait until next year and then let the passengers negotiate the fare with the driver by a blind auction on the platform.

(4) fire all employees except 1 driver and 1 mechanic, close the main office and move to a back-office in the garage

(5) file for bankruptcy protection.

Quote
2) Currently average block size is less than 0.4 mb now that the stress test bullshit is over. Gonna be a long time until we even hit the 1 mb limit.

It is increasing at 0.2 MB per year, the max effective capacity is 0.8 MB, and traffic jams will start to occur when it is 0.6-0.7 MB

(Have a plane to catch, more on return)


6)  Develop technology which safely allows 80,000 people to ride one bus with little or no difference in compfort and maintanance costs.

 - Now each passenger pays the expected modest fee and the bus company has enough income to operate a very secure business.

Developing such technology is more challenging that the simplistic ideas of 'buy more buses', or 'charge more per ticket.'  That seems to be the task that Blockstream is undertaking with their 'elements' suite of innovations.

sidechains could aggregate the activity of thousands of sidechain transactions to a single on-chain transaction.  Even a tiny transaction fee at the user level passed up to the Bitcoin backing layer would support very robust infrastructure.

I would add that merchants of a certain size will provide pretty decent savings to customers who will participate in their company 'rewards program' or use company gift cards.  If the merchant had their own branded currency system it must be worth at least as much to them as a silly little rewards card.  This could bring a tsunami of value into what I've always called a 'subordinate chains' cypto-currency ecosystem.  Sidechains would be an example but the word was not coined when I started promoting that scaling mechanism.

Seems to me that what Blockstream is shooting for is to be recognized as a trusted authority both technically and ethically in a world where sidechains are a major economic player.  If a 'branded currency' is a useful thing to large corporations, they (unlike a gaggle of plebs) have the muscle to induce governments to lighten up and allow them to at least exist.

I would never expect the financial services industry proper to be very supportive of real sidechains operating under a 'free' backing store since they are doing very well under the current fully controlled systems.  I could see this sector promoting something like XT which gives them the hope of monopolizing the take from a centralized and controlled solution just as they do with most fiat systems today.

legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
August 21, 2015, 09:48:44 AM
Oh wait...what if I lose all my money, because of this issue that isn't an issue?  Angry
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
August 21, 2015, 09:44:33 AM
Too many "cooks", spoil the broth.

How is anyone who can't understand code (and I presume this to be the majority of Bitcoin users) meant to be able to make an informed decision over this issue? Any "ordinary" person, that is, someone with zero. or little coding knowledge, is just gonna feel very confused and inadequate and sell all their BTC until (or if) this thing blows over.

IS THIS WHAT ANYONE WANTS???

There isn't an issue.  Problem solved.

Oh..cool. I'll just go back to sleep then, as apparently, I don't have anyyything at all to worry about. Cheers DooD...zzzzzzz
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