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piotr_n

legendary

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aka tonikt

Quote from: brendio on July 08, 2012, 09:40:45 AM

And again you conveniently forget to consider opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost? Shocked

WTF is this? May I ask you, our genius, how much the opportunity costs in this case? Is it more than your car's annual insurance?
Please educate mi about the "opportunity cost", because I'm such an idiot who has no idea about the complex stuff around it.
I should have studied economy in America instead of computers in Europe - maybe then I would be at least half as smart as you are

brendio

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piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: piotr_n on July 08, 2012, 05:06:12 AM

Later today I will try to explain again, this time week-by-week, how your initial capital in the "insurance fund" got replaced by money from the cycling auctions, and how it happened that you are not holding there any risk anymore... So stay tuned.

As promised, here is how it works, assuming the worst case scenario, in which all the bonds are sold at 1.00 BTC.

For simplification and better understanding I will use 1000, instead of 3000, for weekly deposits / new bonds.
I hope you don't need a prove that this schema works just as well with other amounts? I'm asking this because your stupidity has already surprised me at least once, so I never know...

Anyway, here is how it works:

Code:

Week no | Depositor of 1000 BTC | BTC in The Fund | BTC in BS&T | Withdraw from BS&T for 1000 BTC deposited 4 weeks ago
=============================================================================================================================
0       | PPT shareholders      | 0 BTC           | 1000 BTC    | -
1       | Buyers of PPT.A       | 1000 BTC        | 1000 BTC    | -
2       | Buyers of PPT.B       | 1000 BTC        | 2000 BTC    | -
3       | Buyers of PPT.C       | 1000 BTC        | 3000 BTC    | -
4       | Buyers of PPT.D       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 280 BTC to the Fund, 1030 BTC to PPT shareholders
5       | Buyers of PPT.E       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
6       | Buyers of PPT.A       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.B, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
7       | Buyers of PPT.B       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.C, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
8       | Buyers of PPT.C       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.D, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
9       | Buyers of PPT.D       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.E, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
10      | Buyers of PPT.E       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
11      | Buyers of PPT.A       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.B, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
12      | Buyers of PPT.B       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.C, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
13      | Buyers of PPT.C       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.D, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
14      | Buyers of PPT.D       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.E, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
15      | Buyers of PPT.E       | 1280 BTC        | 4000 BTC    | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
... and so on ...

As you can see, at week 4 the initial investment was already returned to the PPT shareholders while the fund required to handle all the insurance is still there.

So the first 1000 BTC was exposed to the risk only for the first 4 weeks. Later you simply withdraw the initial capital because the bonds self-insure themselves.

cedus

newbie

Activity: 46

Merit: 0

Quote from: MrTeal on July 05, 2012, 08:53:06 AM

Has Pirate disclosed to you what the tiers will be for the new trust account interest rates?

This. Several people are talking about 6% in PPT related topics, but apparently 7% is still available. Would be nice to know the tiers and PPT's official stand whether it's going to strive for the maximum interest rate or remain at 12k (or 9k) BTC level which presumably entitles to 6%.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on July 08, 2012, 04:42:15 AM

Quote from: piotr_n on July 08, 2012, 04:31:13 AM

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on July 08, 2012, 04:27:48 AM

Interesting: in the event of a BS&T default, we pay out 3860 coins to bond holders. Collectively we can demonstrate the blockchain transactions and the address where these coins sit (Burt had this somewhere). This is obviously not a penny.

You have no honor whatsoever.

If BS&T defaults today, you will just use the coins provided to you during the auction 5 weeks ago and recently withdrawn in the amount of 3932 BTC.
Just cut off the crap and stop deluding people with "funds" and "transactions" - I don't give a shit about the details of your bookkeeping.

Obviously you do not care about the bookkeeping and transactions - it makes the story less interesting.

In the event of a default, the coins from the auction invested into BS&T are gone. I am not sure where you think this magical extra set of coins appears from as any "spare" is paid out in profits. If we were running a five week cycle that might work, but would still require approximately 4000 coins more than customers have provided.

As for honour, I do not need to attest my own position.

It's really amazing that one can run such a lucrative business without having in idea of what it is about

Unless you just keep playing stupid, with the hope to delude more unconscious suckers...

Later today I will try to explain again, this time week-by-week, how your initial capital in the "insurance fund" got replaced by money from the cycling auctions, and how it happened that you are not holding there any risk anymore... So stay tuned.

PatrickHarnett

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: piotr_n on July 08, 2012, 04:31:13 AM

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on July 08, 2012, 04:27:48 AM

Interesting: in the event of a BS&T default, we pay out 3860 coins to bond holders. Collectively we can demonstrate the blockchain transactions and the address where these coins sit (Burt had this somewhere). This is obviously not a penny.

You have no honor whatsoever.

If BS&T defaults today, you will just use the coins provided to you during the auction 5 weeks ago and recently withdrawn in the amount of 3932 BTC.
Just cut off the crap and stop deluding people with "funds" and "transactions" - I don't give a shit about the details of your bookkeeping.

Obviously you do not care about the bookkeeping and transactions - it makes the story less interesting.

In the event of a default, the coins from the auction invested into BS&T are gone. I am not sure where you think this magical extra set of coins appears from as any "spare" is paid out in profits. If we were running a five week cycle that might work, but would still require approximately 4000 coins more than customers have provided.

As for honour, I do not need to attest my own position.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on July 08, 2012, 04:27:48 AM

Interesting: in the event of a BS&T default, we pay out 3860 coins to bond holders. Collectively we can demonstrate the blockchain transactions and the address where these coins sit (Burt had this somewhere). This is obviously not a penny.

You have no honor whatsoever.

If BS&T defaults today, you will just use the coins provided to you during the auction 5 weeks ago and recently withdrawn in the amount of 3932 BTC.
Just cut off the crap and stop deluding people with big words like "funds" and "transactions" - I don't give a shit about the details of your bookkeeping.

PatrickHarnett

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Interesting: in the event of a BS&T default, we pay out 3860 coins to bond holders. Collectively we can demonstrate the blockchain transactions and the address where these coins sit (Burt had this somewhere). This is obviously not a penny (actually around $26,000).

I suspect the transactions, which are quite simple, are not clear. Let me try to explain.

1: PPT raised 3860 BTC to serve as an insurance fund.
2: PPT.x buyers bid for bonds running for four weeks paying 1.28
3: Any surplus (profit) is paid to PPT.DIV holders.

PPT.x buyers do not pay explicitly for insurance. Any premium they pay, and profit generated is paid to the PPT.DIV holders.
In the event of a BS&T default, irrespective of the progress through a PPT/x cycle, the bonds are guaranteed to pay 0.32 per bond where any other pass through bond pays zero. The founders of PPT will be out of pocket 3860 coins (USD4300 each).
The change in floor price has been well explained related to the change to BS&T interest rates. That change was not made with a justification that the bonds carry partial insurance against default.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: brendio on July 07, 2012, 10:47:34 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on July 07, 2012, 03:15:32 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on July 06, 2012, 12:51:40 PM

Truth is a powerful weapon and I have this weapon now, not hesitating to use it.

The reason why people are saying you are stupid is because you don't really have truth. You have your best guess and nothing more. And you really don't know any more than anyone else.

Please do yourself a favor and just shut up. You really do sound like a fool pretending you know the truth.

There is no truth because no one knows anything. Please stop polluting the forums. You've had your say. That was enough. Now it's just noise pollution.

Oh, give me a break. Enough "free insurance" propaganda has been sold already, so don't embarrass yourself by pleasing the crooks.

I do know the truth.
The truth is: the insurance if only an illusion.
I already explained what the illusion is about, in a way that even the worst idiot would have understood.
But if you don't get it, then I'm sorry for you - there is nothing more I can help you with, so just go buy yourself some more insurance, since I really don't care about all the deluded unconscious suckers, especially those that bark at the postman.

I pay $600 per year to insure my car. Each year for the past 15 years, my insurance company has not paid me a single cent. Should I go to my insurance company and demand my money back because the "insurance is only an illusion"?

Why would I care how much you pay to insure your car?

What does it have to do with the topic?

Insurance, by definition, involves a risk for the insurer. No risk = no insurance.
If too many cars are stolen/crashed one year, your insurance company can loose money and even go bankrupt.
Whereas in this case the PPT holders are not holding any risk. After BS&T defaults they don't loose a penny to pay out the insurance for the PPT.x bonds.
But you still don't get it, do you?

The insurer here is the previous buyers of the PPT.x bonds - not the PPT holders, who are now only collecting 100% risk-free fees.
The PPT shareholders are not exposed to any risk here, so there is no reason for the PPT bonds to have an extra low interest rate.
And now they suddenly want to force a lower interest rate, by setting the min acceptable bid to 1.04, justifying it with a statement that "their bonds are insured"...
How stupid one needs to be to buy such a crap?

MrTeal

legendary

Activity: 1274

Merit: 1004

Quote from: brendio on July 07, 2012, 10:47:34 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on July 07, 2012, 03:15:32 AM

Oh, give me a break. Enough "free insurance" propaganda has been sold already, so don't embarrass yourself by pleasing the crooks.

I do know the truth.
The truth is: the insurance if only an illusion.
I already explained what the illusion is about, in a way that even the worst idiot would have understood.
But if you don't get it, then I'm sorry for you - there is nothing more I can help you with, so just go buy yourself some more insurance, since I really don't care about all the deluded unconscious suckers, especially those that bark at the postman.

I pay $600 per year to insure my car. Each year for the past 15 years, my insurance company has not paid me a single cent. Should I go to my insurance company and demand my money back because the "insurance is only an illusion"?

Let me know if this works, I could get back a bundle on unused house insurance.

brendio

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: piotr_n on July 07, 2012, 03:15:32 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on July 06, 2012, 12:51:40 PM

Truth is a powerful weapon and I have this weapon now, not hesitating to use it.

The reason why people are saying you are stupid is because you don't really have truth. You have your best guess and nothing more. And you really don't know any more than anyone else.

Please do yourself a favor and just shut up. You really do sound like a fool pretending you know the truth.

There is no truth because no one knows anything. Please stop polluting the forums. You've had your say. That was enough. Now it's just noise pollution.

Oh, give me a break. Enough "free insurance" propaganda has been sold already, so don't embarrass yourself by pleasing the crooks.

I do know the truth.
The truth is: the insurance if only an illusion.
I already explained what the illusion is about, in a way that even the worst idiot would have understood.
But if you don't get it, then I'm sorry for you - there is nothing more I can help you with, so just go buy yourself some more insurance, since I really don't care about all the deluded unconscious suckers, especially those that bark at the postman.

I pay $600 per year to insure my car. Each year for the past 15 years, my insurance company has not paid me a single cent. Should I go to my insurance company and demand my money back because the "insurance is only an illusion"?

Sukrim

legendary

Activity: 2618

Merit: 1007

Congratulations - had you been buying + selling uninsured pass-throughs instead (which are available at bargain prices atm) you could have bought many more PPT.X shares next week. Your only bet has to be that pirate really pays out this coming monday still. Roll Eyes

(Edit: any if you don't believe in this, why are you buying binds that are not 100% or higher insured?!)

Anyways, it's always interesting to see public opinion about pirate measured weekly in such a direct way.

roomservice

full member

Activity: 199

Merit: 100

Awesome, just picked up all those remaining shares!

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on July 06, 2012, 12:51:40 PM

Truth is a powerful weapon and I have this weapon now, not hesitating to use it.

The reason why people are saying you are stupid is because you don't really have truth. You have your best guess and nothing more. And you really don't know any more than anyone else.

Please do yourself a favor and just shut up. You really do sound like a fool pretending you know the truth.

There is no truth because no one knows anything. Please stop polluting the forums. You've had your say. That was enough. Now it's just noise pollution.

Oh, give me a break. Enough "free insurance" propaganda has been sold already, so don't embarrass yourself by pleasing the crooks.

I do know the truth.
The truth is: the insurance if only an illusion.
I already explained what the illusion is about, in a way that even the worst idiot would have understood.
But if you don't get it, then I'm sorry for you - there is nothing more I can help you with, so just go buy yourself some more insurance, since I really don't care about all the deluded unconscious suckers, especially those that bark at the postman.

jothan

full member

Activity: 184

Merit: 100

Feel the coffee, be the coffee.

Gotta buy 'em all !

MrTeal

legendary

Activity: 1274

Merit: 1004

Quote from: ?? on ??

Each hour we leave them for sale the yield gets better, we may take them down at some point if they do not sell.

You've sold 715 since the auction, so I don't imagine that it will take that much longer to sell the remaining thousand or so.

Alright, another interesting auction to watch. Time to go fishing.

MrTeal

legendary

Activity: 1274

Merit: 1004

Wow, not even half the bonds sold. I'm not sure if this is more from the price increase or the market uncertainty about Pirate defaulting, but it is surprising.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: stochastic on July 06, 2012, 01:25:30 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on July 06, 2012, 12:51:40 PM

Only after one of them said that my comment about the insurance being an illusion was "stupid and ill informed".
Sorry - I need to defend my reputation

You did an immaculate job defending your reputation and character.

You obviously haven't seen me at my peek performance

And really, I don't want to spoil anyone's business, but am I the only person on this forum who thinks that selling a fake insurance is not quite right?
If you see a person cheating other people - in my country it's noble to act against it. Is your country really so much different?

stochastic

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: piotr_n on July 06, 2012, 12:51:40 PM

Only after one of them said that my comment about the insurance being an illusion was "stupid and ill informed".
Sorry - I need to defend my reputation

You did an immaculate job defending your reputation and character.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: wachtwoord on July 06, 2012, 12:50:02 PM

Of course you re free to say whatever you want. It's just that you are acting like it's morally objectable what these guys are doing and you are th saviour of the people.

Only after one of them said that my comment about the insurance being an illusion was "stupid and ill informed".
Sorry - I need to defend my reputation

I didn't mind them selling a fake insurace to stupid people, as long as they were respectful to me.
But if they want a war in the field of "who is more honest", I'm happy to give them one, since I have no doubts who's going to win it.
Truth is a powerful weapon and I have this weapon now, not hesitating to use it.

And I never said that they were committing a crime - so don't lie, man.
I could have said though that they were deluding unconscious suckers...
But deluding unconscious suckers isn't a crime, is it?

Topic: . - page 10. (Read 67488 times)