The chart is wrong for the interest part! You're retrieving 310 x 4 monthly = 1240 interest when 31% x 3000 in BS&T earns you 930 monthly.
You're receiving 1310 per month back on 1000 every four week, yes!
But that 3000 BTC fully rotates every 3 weeks instead of 4!
You can't earn the full interest for 1000 with 4 actives (interest on a full 4000) while having 3000 in BS&T
Topic: . - page 9. (Read 67488 times)
NO! Because there would only be 3000 left in BS&T!
You can't earn that 31% for 1000 on four PPT.X (1000 each) at the same time while just having three 1000 slices in the account earning you interest! You need the full 4000. Otherwise you take one whole slice out that's supposed to earn that 310 BTC interest monthly. You're effectivly having 750 BTC working per PPT.X!
3000 x 31% in 4 weeks = 930 earned every 4 weeks
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120 paid weekly.
It does not work.
YES! You can't earn that 31% for 1000 on four PPT.X (1000 each) at the same time while just having three 1000 slices in the account earning you interest! You need the full 4000. Otherwise you take one whole slice out that's supposed to earn that 310 BTC interest monthly. You're effectivly having 750 BTC working per PPT.X!
3000 x 31% in 4 weeks = 930 earned every 4 weeks
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120 paid weekly.
It does not work.
How is the chart wrong?
NO! Because there would only be 3000 left in BS&T!
You can't earn that 31% for 1000 on four PPT.X (1000 each) at the same time while just having three 1000 slices in the account earning you interest! You need the full 4000. Otherwise you take one whole slice out that's supposed to earn that 310 BTC interest monthly. You're effectivly having 750 BTC working per PPT.X!
3000 x 31% in 4 weeks = 930 earned every 4 weeks
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120 paid weekly.
It does not work.
You can't earn that 31% for 1000 on four PPT.X (1000 each) at the same time while just having three 1000 slices in the account earning you interest! You need the full 4000. Otherwise you take one whole slice out that's supposed to earn that 310 BTC interest monthly. You're effectivly having 750 BTC working per PPT.X!
3000 x 31% in 4 weeks = 930 earned every 4 weeks
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120 paid weekly.
It does not work.
But everything else on the chart is right, isn't it?
Code:
Week no | Depositor of 1000 BTC | Insurance Fund | BTC in BS&T | Withdraw from BS&T for 1000 BTC deposited 4 weeks ago
=============================================================================================================================
0 | PPT shareholders | 0 BTC | 1000 BTC | -
I didn't want to comment, but you asked politely. The first row is incorrect, as the 1000 BTC was not placed in BS&T, but 1280 BTC placed in the fund.
Either way you were able to withdraw your initial capital at exactly the same moment; after the first PPT.D got sold.
But everything else on the chart is right, isn't it?
Code:
Week no | Depositor of 1000 BTC | Insurance Fund | BTC in BS&T | Withdraw from BS&T for 1000 BTC deposited 4 weeks ago
=============================================================================================================================
0 | PPT shareholders | 0 BTC | 1000 BTC | -
I didn't want to comment, but you asked politely. The first row is incorrect, as the 1000 BTC was not placed in BS&T, but 1280 BTC placed in the fund.
The other item I could correct is the differentiation between the PPT.DIV pay outs (what you have labeled PPT shareholders) and the core PPT holders of the 36 shares that place the capital at risk still have 3860 coins sitting idle in the event of default.
The other distraction here is that the insurance was never free for purchasers, and there was a premium paid, and that is the profit that goes to the PPT.DIV holders. With the change in interest rates from BS&T a decision was made, on the information available, to change the rate of pass-through. It is not the worst pass-through rate available on the forum, but the bonds do have some other features that people value including tradability and liquidity (although that is quite low currently).
At the end of the day, if Pirate goes bust, I have a 640 BTC hole in my accounts as do the five other initial funders. I'm off for some sleep and I hope your day is going well as you hoped.
But there's 3000 in the funds, not the 4000 planned! Because you stole 1000 BTC to refund insurance, there's 3000 BTC left earning interest, or 750 per active PPT.X share, instead of 1000.
1000 DOES earn you 1310 after four week. But you don't ACTUALLY HAVE 1000 for each PPT.X, just 750!
1000 DOES earn you 1310 after four week. But you don't ACTUALLY HAVE 1000 for each PPT.X, just 750!
Quote
3000 x 31% in 4 weeks = 930 earned every 4 weeks
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120
This whole back-and-forth bickering is all about one thing:
The perception if losing a profit constitutes risk
And that perception is different for everyone
If you sit down at a blackjack table with $100, run it up to $10.000 but leave the table with the $100 you came with - did you lose money ?
In my opinion you did: $9.900 to be exact... other people might say they left break-even... is money still on the table (i.e. before you cash it) casino-money or your money ?
All depends on your outlook in life
So any further arguing about this is senseless imo
The perception if losing a profit constitutes risk
And that perception is different for everyone
If you sit down at a blackjack table with $100, run it up to $10.000 but leave the table with the $100 you came with - did you lose money ?
In my opinion you did: $9.900 to be exact... other people might say they left break-even... is money still on the table (i.e. before you cash it) casino-money or your money ?
All depends on your outlook in life
So any further arguing about this is senseless imo
To be able to retrieve that 1310 weekly, you need to have a full 4000 BTC
No you don't. You only need to put 1000 into BS&T every week, to withdraw 1310 every week 4 weeks later.
How is the chart wrong?
3000 x 31% in 4 weeks = 930 earned every 4 weeks
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120
To be able to retrieve that 1310 weekly, you need to have a full 4000 BTC, 1000 for each PPT.X being active, otherwise you have the equivalent of having 750 BTC working for each PPT.X
Dividends paid each week = 280, x4 weeks = 1120
To be able to retrieve that 1310 weekly, you need to have a full 4000 BTC, 1000 for each PPT.X being active, otherwise you have the equivalent of having 750 BTC working for each PPT.X
Well then everywhere after on the chart, only 3000 BTC are in BS&T at any time, meaning there's not the 4000 sitting there garnering the 310 BTC monthly interest.
That's the whole point to not have 4000 in BS&T, but only 3000.Each 1000 BTC works separately, for its 1310 BTC to be withdrawn 4 weeks later.
So maybe try to tell me where is the chart wrong now?
ONLY 310 bitcoins are the interest, the rest is 1000 removed from BS&T for 1000 being added, it STAYS 3000 BT&T like at week 3. There's a 1310 removal for a 1000 in. BS&T funds will stay the same like between week 4 & 5 & 6... That chart is not right.
You're right. "BTC in BS&T" never goes to 4000, but stays at 3000 BTC.
Thank you for correcting me.
But everything else on the chart is correct - right?
Well then everywhere after on the chart, only 3000 BTC are in BS&T at any time, meaning there's not the 4000 sitting there garnering the 310 BTC monthly interest. There wouldn't be enough BTC in the funds at any time to earn the interest.
Not sure what actual facts about this are. Haven't been following PPT.X issuance much.
Like that it seems they are indeed getting their insurance capital at risk at all time, but get 3% because of the compounded interest while still paying 28%. 3% monthly x 4 PPT.X active at any time = 3% per week on their 1000 BTC...
Suddenly that doesn't seem like a good thing to offer those bonds. I'm at a loss about how they do it but I don't feel like checking how they issued it. How much premium do they sell the bonds usually over 1 on average (depending on buy offer)? If they sell over 1.04 they get a small extra % on their risked capital for offering the bonds.
But you say BurtW agreed that the bond actually payed for the insurance? I'm at a loss. In any case that chart cannot work if they pay 28% monthly interest.
ONLY 310 bitcoins are the interest, the rest is 1000 removed from BS&T for 1000 being added, it STAYS 3000 BT&T like at week 3. There's a 1310 removal for a 1000 in. BS&T funds will stay the same like between week 4 & 5 & 6... That chart is not right.
You're right. "BTC in BS&T" never goes to 4000, but stays at 3000 BTC.
Thank you for correcting me.
But everything else on the chart is correct - right?
Code:
Week no | Depositor of 1000 BTC | Insurance Fund | BTC in BS&T | Withdraw from BS&T for 1000 BTC deposited 4 weeks ago
=============================================================================================================================
0 | PPT shareholders | 0 BTC | 1000 BTC | -
1 | Buyers of PPT.A | 1000 BTC | 1000 BTC | -
2 | Buyers of PPT.B | 1000 BTC | 2000 BTC | -
3 | Buyers of PPT.C | 1000 BTC | 3000 BTC | -
4 | Buyers of PPT.D | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 280 BTC to the Fund, initial 1000 + new 30 BTC back to PPT shareholders
5 | Buyers of PPT.E | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
6 | Buyers of PPT.A | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.B, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
7 | Buyers of PPT.B | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.C, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
8 | Buyers of PPT.C | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.D, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
9 | Buyers of PPT.D | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.E, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
10 | Buyers of PPT.E | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
11 | Buyers of PPT.A | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.B, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
12 | Buyers of PPT.B | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.C, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
13 | Buyers of PPT.C | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.D, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
14 | Buyers of PPT.D | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.E, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
15 | Buyers of PPT.E | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
... and so on ...
I want to buy 1 bond TODAY.
I can buy a PPT.x bond for 1.04-1.05 with a return of 1.28 with .32 insurance
or a different brand of PPT for lets say 1-1.02 with return of 6.8 a week (1.3-1.32 if compounded? ) with no insurance.
so one is 0.23 profit in 4 weeks - with insurance
the other 0.3 profit in 4 weeks - no insurance
so yes - the insurance is now coming out of the buyers pocket.
that is cost of 0.07 to have 0.32 insurance . at any given moment its not that bad
in the long term of course its not worth while. but that's how it is in any insurance you do- health,car,home.
since there is the risk of a default at any given moment for some its worthwhile
( and yes I carry some as well among other varieties of PPT stuff)
I can buy a PPT.x bond for 1.04-1.05 with a return of 1.28 with .32 insurance
or a different brand of PPT for lets say 1-1.02 with return of 6.8 a week (1.3-1.32 if compounded? ) with no insurance.
so one is 0.23 profit in 4 weeks - with insurance
the other 0.3 profit in 4 weeks - no insurance
so yes - the insurance is now coming out of the buyers pocket.
that is cost of 0.07 to have 0.32 insurance . at any given moment its not that bad
in the long term of course its not worth while. but that's how it is in any insurance you do- health,car,home.
since there is the risk of a default at any given moment for some its worthwhile
( and yes I carry some as well among other varieties of PPT stuff)
Another thing that is interesting, BTW of discussing this matter, are the tags on the forum.
If somebody borrows 5 BTC and doesn't give it back - he gets a SCAMMER tag.
But when a bunch of people sells a fake insurance, earning hundreds of bitcoins with this - these are VIP, Donator, Senior Hero Members...
If somebody borrows 5 BTC and doesn't give it back - he gets a SCAMMER tag.
But when a bunch of people sells a fake insurance, earning hundreds of bitcoins with this - these are VIP, Donator, Senior Hero Members...
The risk the PPT lenders took was in the 1st rounds of bonds.If pirate defaulted then the insurance would have come from their pocket. Obviously ,after a while they made profit which now is more than enough to pay for the insurance. Whats wrong with that? As far as buyers are concerned, at any given moment they buy a PPT bond they are sure they will get back at least 0.32 and they don't care about all your intricate calculations.
What's wrong is the interest rate.After they got back the initial capital and the business has been risk-free for them, there is no justification for the PPT bonds to have an extra low interest rate, comparing to the other PPT bonds.
So my guess is that if anyone buys their bonds at 1.04+, it's only because he got mislead by the illusion of the "free insurance".
They parasitize on a stupidity of unconscious suckers who they managed to delude with the free insurance propaganda.
The risk the PPT lenders took was in the 1st rounds of bonds.If pirate defaulted then the insurance would have come from their pocket. Obviously ,after a while they made profit which now is more than enough to pay for the insurance. Whats wrong with that? As far as buyers are concerned, at any given moment they buy a PPT bond they are sure they will get back at least 0.32 and they don't care about all your intricate calculations.
It's really amazing that one can run such a lucrative business without having in idea of what it is about
Unless you just keep playing stupid, with the hope to delude more unconscious suckers...
Later today I will try to explain again, this time week-by-week, how your initial capital in the "insurance fund" got replaced by money from the cycling auctions, and how it happened that you are not holding there any risk anymore... So stay tuned.
Unless you just keep playing stupid, with the hope to delude more unconscious suckers...
Later today I will try to explain again, this time week-by-week, how your initial capital in the "insurance fund" got replaced by money from the cycling auctions, and how it happened that you are not holding there any risk anymore... So stay tuned.
Can you shut up please? You're starting to sound like that time cube idiot.
It's going to be such a nice day.
Who said that I was angry?
Nothing like that - I'm actually enjoying this conversation with the smartest guys in the bitcoin world
Unfortunately I see that you still haven't got it and you are still barking at the postman.
Despite of all my efforts - what a shame.
And I even made such a nice table for you - having it I just cannot imagine how much easier could it be for an idiot to understand the root of the "free insurance" scam.
But well, nobody is perfect and since you are so smart, I can only guess that you just didn't read carefully enough.
So just let me repeat it one more time, because I believe that it is quite simple and one day you will eventually get it.
And on that day I will shut up - so suddenly that I am even already saying: you're welcome
Code:
Week no | Depositor of 1000 BTC | BTC in The Fund | BTC in BS&T | Withdraw from BS&T for 1000 BTC deposited 4 weeks ago
=============================================================================================================================
0 | PPT shareholders | 0 BTC | 1000 BTC | -
1 | Buyers of PPT.A | 1000 BTC | 1000 BTC | -
2 | Buyers of PPT.B | 1000 BTC | 2000 BTC | -
3 | Buyers of PPT.C | 1000 BTC | 3000 BTC | -
4 | Buyers of PPT.D | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 280 BTC to the Fund, initial 1000 + new 30 BTC back to PPT shareholders
5 | Buyers of PPT.E | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
6 | Buyers of PPT.A | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.B, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
7 | Buyers of PPT.B | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.C, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
8 | Buyers of PPT.C | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.D, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
9 | Buyers of PPT.D | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.E, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
10 | Buyers of PPT.E | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.A, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
11 | Buyers of PPT.A | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.B, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
12 | Buyers of PPT.B | 1280 BTC | 3000 BTC | 1280 BTC to buy back PPT.C, 30 BTC to PPT shareholders
... and so on...
So, as you can see on the picture above, already at week 4 the PPT bonds business was a risk-free, perpetual 3% / week profit.
And now they became so greedy and impertinent (justifying it with the "free insurance" propaganda) that they forced 7% / week from this risk-free investment.
BTW, even ButrW agreed (in the other thread) that they don't pay for the "insurance", but the bond-buyers are insuring the bonds...
So I understand that you are jumping at me, because you don't like strange people coming from nowhere to expose your cheeky scams, but why are you arguing with him?
If the redemption of the bonds was on a five week cycle I would be more inclined to agree, but it's not. But you are getting closer. The other piece that appears missing is the payments to PPT.DIV holders, but as have need stated, you're not interested in accurate bookkeeping.
In the table, a default event would also show 0.32 coins per outstanding bond being used to pay bond holders, and from what you have clearly set out, that does come from the week zero funds.
In other news, major insurance companies use customer premiums directly to build reserves, pay claims and enrich shareholders.
In the table, a default event would also show 0.32 coins per outstanding bond being used to pay bond holders, and from what you have clearly set out, that does come from the week zero funds.
In other news, major insurance companies use customer premiums directly to build reserves, pay claims and enrich shareholders.
piotr_n:
While I agree the insurance should have been a profit by now, I don't see why you are so angry about it. It's an documented contract, it takes a few seconds to skim over it and read the conditions. Unlike another issue here, this problem is out in the open and for the user to judge.
This is really running against the smallest issue in sight. Why bother?
While I agree the insurance should have been a profit by now, I don't see why you are so angry about it. It's an documented contract, it takes a few seconds to skim over it and read the conditions. Unlike another issue here, this problem is out in the open and for the user to judge.
This is really running against the smallest issue in sight. Why bother?
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