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Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2) - page 41. (Read 146909 times)

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Come on trolls, If you don't believe him, or your jealous(whatever the reason) can we just wait till beginning of Fed, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables.

Good thing you were around in Oct.  You likely would have said:

"can we just wait till beginning of Nov, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables"

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Quote
Yes. I think it is unreasonable. It is the way they got into this predicament where they cannot deliver on-spec or on-time.

They took people's money -based upon lies- as capital to build a product (that doesn't exist as of yet) and even with their irresponsible preorders, couldn't finance their endeavor? They are still accepting pre-orders, now for a $25k vapor-box as well. You're telling me they can't find a venture capitalist to kick them a few hundred grand to deliver their products on time? They don't have enough collateral to secure a bank loan?

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?

Thanks for answering.  So, in a nutshell, your chain of logic is completely non-existent and meanders all over the place, breaking down like a Ford fresh off the showroom floor.  That's kind of what I thought, but I had hoped that maybe you had some sort of logical consistence to your constant haranguing, but my hopes have been dashed, sadly.


Sorry if your opinion isnt fact. Just because you think its not logical , doesnt make it so. Who gives a shiet what you "hoped". Do you care if i "hoped" you're retard?

I troll this thread because of pos like you who thinks their opinion is end of all. I dont support such business tactics of BFL's. You can go fuck yourself.


What's the matter, stud?  Did I piss you off?  Did your little brain overload?  Glad you like my avatar, it looks good on you.  At least you know what it feels like to not look like a douche.  Enjoy it!  Sorry about letting your secrets out, but it happens and I am really sorry if I hurt your feelings, little man.  Your fragile ego is hard to dance around.




lol i did get under your skin didnt i?

Little man? Judging by your pic, i would never be considered little. But i guess behind a screen, you can run that big mouth of yours.

Btw, is the jokes store sold out? you used the same worlds over and over. If you want my "come" back, scrap your mom's teeth.


Awww poor little guy.  You are apparently so butt hurt that you need to make a 'mom' joke.  Wow... didn't think I cut you that bad.  The day someone like you can get under my skin is the day I eschew the internet entirely.  I'm fairly entertained by how hard you're trying (and how hard you end up failing)... by all means, keep it up.  The only one "running their big mouth behind a screen" is you.  My picture is out there, my info is out there. I'm available for real life meetings any time.  How about you, sparky?

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
hmm, looking again since you asked.  it's 780pin. the pcb suggest it is 1.1v. size suggest 65nm. which would be 29x29mm.
http://components.arrow.com/part/search/1.1v+fpga+stratix+iii
My best, uneducated guess is; http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/46649448S9901954N7401

will update if I can narrow it down further.

I think that is a good guess.  The voltage and power consumption almost guarantee it is a last gen 65nm product.   45nm chips simply don't consume that much wattage (bad board design or not) no matter how hard you push them.  All other 45nm miner designs are getting 20MH/S +/- 10%.   BFL is getting 10MH/W.  My guess is they (maybe using prior industry contract) they made a bulk purchase of some out the end of life 65nm chips at a significant discount to retail. 

So I doubt BFL will ever confirm it but what do they do after their stock runs out?  Neither company is making any more 65nm chips.  Then again maybe it is a good plan.  Buy 65nm chips at discount to undercut all other competitors, build boards until you run out.  Use that capital to start designing 28nm products and skip 45nm generation completely.  If they have enough stock to last in Q3-2012 it could work.

Too bad they had to come off completely scammy by offering specs based on simulations, taking pre-orders, using loose delivery "dates", poor contact with community, etc. 

In the long run it doesn't matter.  For most of us this is a business.  If they have the best product (confirmed by end users) hell even I might buy one someday.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
Nice research. Cheesy The release of this little baby should be interesting. I understand people being sceptical but hey, welcome to the free market. If they are trying to make a business out of this, why do people expect them to release all the info on everything? No one seems to understand R&D when it comes to business.

Come on trolls, If you don't believe him, or your jealous(whatever the reason) can we just wait till beginning of Fed, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables.

How about we try to be civil, Yes?
Heh I see you didn't read the whole thread.
Ignoring all the unreasonable stuff, the reasonable complaints are:
The original product description and web order page was based on a simulation - no actual hardware.
Some guy from BFL actually made comments about how they have 10 years of experience in this.
When the first prototype finally arrived, it was well under spec in ALL aspects and had to be redesigned due to a complete failure in power design (coz it was based on a simulation)
Approx 80% hash rate, 400% power usage, different sell price and has pushed back every deadline they have quoted, over and over again.
Basically BFL have implied and said a lot of things, and none, but certain statements after the fact (and their money back statement), so far have been true.
So yeah it's not hard to understand where the trolling came from.
hero member
Activity: 2618
Merit: 548
SecureShift.io | Crypto-Exchange
If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?

It is apparently 2 chips on this board. We have had some light discussions, I think more so in the older thread about what current fpga chips are capable. The few in the 45nm series that can manage 400MHs+ run anywhere from $750 to $1250 per chip.

I made some fail effort to identify the chips from the pics available. Closest thing I could find in size and materials was I believe the Altera FPGAs. But the picks I found had what appear to be rounder corners than the BFL ones. I would think some of the other guys around here have seen enough of these they could indent it from just this pick. We know roughly the chip size, which I can't recall off hand. I deleted my 'research' folder on all of it when I caught myself wasting too much time on something that really did not matter. It may have been 25mmx25mm though?

hmm, looking again since you asked.  it's 780pin. the pcb suggest it is 1.1v. size suggest 65nm. which would be 29x29mm.
http://components.arrow.com/part/search/1.1v+fpga+stratix+iii
My best, uneducated guess is; http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/46649448S9901954N7401



will update if I can narrow it down further.

Nice research. Cheesy The release of this little baby should be interesting. I understand people being sceptical but hey, welcome to the free market. If they are trying to make a business out of this, why do people expect them to release all the info on everything? No one seems to understand R&D when it comes to business.

Come on trolls, If you don't believe him, or your jealous(whatever the reason) can we just wait till beginning of Fed, they should be released by then. If they don't, we can all flip our tables.

How about we try to be civil, Yes?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
To put things in perspective,

Look at the Raspberry Pi project, its supposed to be shipping in Nov 2011. However, after few delays, they're still not able to ship the products. They just got a contract with a manufacture oversea and will ship the product in Feb. Yet, they dont receive a single negative comment or feedback. Why? simple.... no BS claim, no preorder crap and certainly open to anyone (you can see every single components being used, not some secret BS)

However, ppl in Bitcoin community can be fooled and blind to give BLF some free interest loan. Another fool is willing to do their PR work.

Exactly. Until we actually see a forum review all this ( even the singles ) is total speculation to me.

LOL I actually thought plastic.elastic was Inaba back there Wink

Inaba, how did you get hired as BFL's PR guy ? Can I also apply as I need some cash too Grin ?
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?

It is apparently 2 chips on this board. We have had some light discussions, I think more so in the older thread about what current fpga chips are capable. The few in the 45nm series that can manage 400MHs+ run anywhere from $750 to $1250 per chip.

I made some fail effort to identify the chips from the pics available. Closest thing I could find in size and materials was I believe the Altera FPGAs. But the picks I found had what appear to be rounder corners than the BFL ones. I would think some of the other guys around here have seen enough of these they could indent it from just this pick. We know roughly the chip size, which I can't recall off hand. I deleted my 'research' folder on all of it when I caught myself wasting too much time on something that really did not matter. It may have been 25mmx25mm though?

hmm, looking again since you asked.  it's 780pin. the pcb suggest it is 1.1v. size suggest 65nm. which would be 29x29mm.
http://components.arrow.com/part/search/1.1v+fpga+stratix+iii
My best, uneducated guess is; http://components.arrow.com/part/detail/46649448S9901954N7401



will update if I can narrow it down further.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
To put things in perspective,

Look at the Raspberry Pi project, its supposed to be shipping in Nov 2011. However, after few delays, they're still not able to ship the products. They just got a contract with a manufacture oversea and will ship the product in Feb. Yet, they dont receive a single negative comment or feedback. Why? simple.... no BS claim, no preorder crap and certainly open to anyone (you can see every single components being used, not some secret BS)

However, ppl in Bitcoin community can be fooled and blind to give BLF some free interest loan. Another fool is willing to do their PR work.



full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Quote
Yes. I think it is unreasonable. It is the way they got into this predicament where they cannot deliver on-spec or on-time.

They took people's money -based upon lies- as capital to build a product (that doesn't exist as of yet) and even with their irresponsible preorders, couldn't finance their endeavor? They are still accepting pre-orders, now for a $25k vapor-box as well. You're telling me they can't find a venture capitalist to kick them a few hundred grand to deliver their products on time? They don't have enough collateral to secure a bank loan?

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?

Thanks for answering.  So, in a nutshell, your chain of logic is completely non-existent and meanders all over the place, breaking down like a Ford fresh off the showroom floor.  That's kind of what I thought, but I had hoped that maybe you had some sort of logical consistence to your constant haranguing, but my hopes have been dashed, sadly.


Sorry if your opinion isnt fact. Just because you think its not logical , doesnt make it so. Who gives a shiet what you "hoped". Do you care if i "hoped" you're retard?

I troll this thread because of pos like you who thinks their opinion is end of all. I dont support such business tactics of BFL's. You can go fuck yourself.


What's the matter, stud?  Did I piss you off?  Did your little brain overload?  Glad you like my avatar, it looks good on you.  At least you know what it feels like to not look like a douche.  Enjoy it!  Sorry about letting your secrets out, but it happens and I am really sorry if I hurt your feelings, little man.  Your fragile ego is hard to dance around.




lol i did get under your skin didnt i?

Little man? Judging by your pic, i would never be considered little. But i guess behind a screen, you can run that big mouth of yours.

Btw, is the jokes store sold out? you used the same worlds over and over. If you want my "come" back, scrap your mom's teeth.
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?

From the images on BFL's website, and the Rev 1 PCB layout we've seen, it appears they are using 2 (identical?) FPGAs. I don't believe anyone here has put forth a guess on what they can be.
c_k
donator
Activity: 242
Merit: 100
If they use a single FPGA, has anyone looked at the FPGA chips on the market that could perform so high?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Maybe not 1000, but how about fifty...or even one for that matter... You completely missed the point. Why aren't they reinvesting their profit in the business in order to deliver for their customers?

I don't know what they are doing as far as that goes, but I do not see any evidence that is not happening. How fast, exactly, can you design an FPGA solution to the specific problem of Bitcoin and deliver it in a nice form factor, from scratch?

I stated several months ago that I could (with no working knowledge of FPGAs) probably get a couple demos thrown together for $10k. I stand by that.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
so does this mean im never gonna get my 50.4 gigahash rig box?

Have faith.  You will get it in 4-6 weeks*.


*Note: "weeks" as used in this post doesn't refer to the standard time keeping measure consisting of 7 rotations of the planet Earth.  The exact specification of a BFL "week" is a industry trade secret and can't be revealed at this time because of competitors and stuff.
sr. member
Activity: 456
Merit: 250
so does this mean im never gonna get my 50.4 gigahash rig box?
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
Decent Programmer to boot!
I also enjoy calling bullshit when I see it, hence my participation in these threads since day one...

I have to side with Randy in this one. Until I see people with these units in hand, working to what they have been guaranteed (the weaker 800mh/s @80 watts, to be nice) This is complete bs.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
I also enjoy calling bullshit when I see it, hence my participation in these threads since day one...
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Maybe not 1000, but how about fifty...or even one for that matter... You completely missed the point. Why aren't they reinvesting their profit in the business in order to deliver for their customers?

I don't know what they are doing as far as that goes, but I do not see any evidence that is not happening. How fast, exactly, can you design an FPGA solution to the specific problem of Bitcoin and deliver it in a nice form factor, from scratch?

Quote
Be indebted to one party versus being indebted to every single person who orders a unit? It's bad business; they are trying to milk an interest free loan that people apparently are foolish enough to provide for them.

Yes, because one the R&D is done and you have a shipping product, you do not answer to a VC.  In fact, during the design phase, you do not answer to a VC.  You are going to say "Well, you answer to customers." Indeed, and you also refund customers and wash your hands of them if you desire, not so with a VC.

Quote
So they are ordering these from an assembly house one at a time, or they are grouping them into lots. If they are accumulating a number of orders to hit some sorts of price break, than their delivery dates are nothing more than wild speculation, since as you elaborated above, they have no real way to gauge interest and order rates.

I have no idea what they are doing as far as that goes.  My guess is they are ordering small lots.

Quote
I assume, Inaba, that you are in some sort of tech field. Do you routinely deliver on your clientele's jobs almost half a year late? It is bad business, plain and simple, regardless of however you and their fan club choose to defend them.

I don't disagree that delivering late product is bad. I also don't disagree that there haven't been mis-steps.  What I take umbrage to is the brush you and several others keep trying to paint them with, blowing things out of proportion and nitpicking issues to serve your purpose (trolling).  I have no vested interest as to whether they succeed or not, but I call bullshit out when I see it.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
You guys remember like, three months ago when this was all going to be settled in a matter of days...

To take a page from Atlas' book: heh...

Why is the lead on devices ordered today the same as when they hadn't even been designed or built?

Because it takes time to get components sent from over seas and assembled.  Perhaps you're not familiar with the concept of NON mass produced items. 

I just had two completely custom pumps designed and fabricated (at a cost of roughly $2000 each) by Tunze and shipped to me from their factory in Germany, which incidentally takes a 31 day holiday over Christmas and New Years. These are the only two of these pumps in existence, and despite ordering them in November, I received them within a week of the factory reopening. While it isn't computer components, it should serve as a reminder that companies with good customer service and high ticket items hustle to deliver.

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Why isn't the money they have collected enough to put stock on their shelves, so to speak? Generally, profit taking doesn't begin in a business until the business becomes profitable. So why aren't their margins on the 'singles' already preordered put back into procuring more units, thus reducing lead time?

So why would you put stock on shelves if you don't know what actual demand is going to be?  That would be incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.  I would keep barely enough stock to ship a couple units and order the rest as required until I were comfortable with what demand is for the long term.  It would be ignorant in the extreme to order 1000 units and then have 700 of them sitting around gathering dust.

Maybe not 1000, but how about fifty...or even one for that matter... You completely missed the point. Why aren't they reinvesting their profit in the business in order to deliver for their customers?

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If the money isn't enough, why haven't they sought capital elsewhere? VC funds fly around all day, for far stupider plans than this. The fact that they still don't have machines leads me to believe they haven't successfully sought it out.

Why?  Why not?  Why be indebted to someone else?

Be indebted to one party versus being indebted to every single person who orders a unit? It's bad business; they are trying to milk an interest free loan that people apparently are foolish enough to provide for them.

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Yes, the aforementioned questions that remain unanswered lead me to believe it is unreasonable to still have a 4-6 week (that could turn to 4 months without explanation, apparently) lead time. You are telling me that they are building these as orders come in? Not in batches? Seriously?

I don't know what they are doing... but from my considerable experience, I've already outlines what I would be doing were I in their shoes.

So they are ordering these from an assembly house one at a time, or they are grouping them into lots. If they are accumulating a number of orders to hit some sorts of price break, than their delivery dates are nothing more than wild speculation, since as you elaborated above, they have no real way to gauge interest and order rates.



Why do people want to believe so friggin' hard?

I assume, Inaba, that you are in some sort of tech field. Do you routinely deliver on your clientele's jobs almost half a year late? It is bad business, plain and simple, regardless of however you and their fan club choose to defend them.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4

Quote
Yes, the aforementioned questions that remain unanswered lead me to believe it is unreasonable to still have a 4-6 week (that could turn to 4 months without explanation, apparently) lead time. You are telling me that they are building these as orders come in? Not in batches? Seriously?

I don't know what they are doing... but from my considerable experience, I've already outlines what I would be doing were I in their shoes.

Actually they haven't built anything that anyone even knows about yet except a failed prototype based on a simulation.
Hopefully that will change soon ... and it better be soon based on a LOT of what has been said here by many ...
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