Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2) - page 61. (Read 146909 times)

Because you have done nothing to earn any trust.

Did you ever have a prototype running @ 1.05GH and 19.8W?
If not when did you realize your power estimates were off by a factor 500%?
When was your first prototype built?  A month ago? two? three?  How long have you known there is no possible way you could get those power claims?

Do you think it is trustworthy to offer "GUARANTEED PERFORMANCE" and never mention the specs were based on simulations (and everyone knows ISE analysis is a shot in the dark) and you had no physical product anywhere near that spec?

Say the day prior to demo w/ Inaba did you even try running the mining code?  What performance did you get?  What power consumption?
Why didn't you update your website?  Why did you update your blog or this forum?  It took Inaba posting the REAL metrics before you made any changes to your claims?  Why?  Do you think that inspires trust?

Care to comment on this:

The performance of your hardware doesn't come from any ASIC technology does it?  This claim is simply double speak.  The USB controller is an ASIC so technically any FPGA board is a proprietary implementation of both FPGA and ASIC technology.  It is this kind of

On same page you might want to update this:

Do you believe your rig box will get 20 MH/W?  Is this based on any actual product (even a single physical board) or more untested simulations? If not why are you still advertising it as such?  Will that be another mistake too.  It will only be updated on demo day?





Everything from your company has been half truths and misinformation.  You haven't been open or transparent about anything.  Trust is earned.  Here is the crazy part ... I may even by FPGA from you in the future when I trust I wouldn't be sold a bunch of hot air.  Your personal attacks against me aside (BTW to answer your inquiries I own no FPGAs, I have no FPGA products, and I have been on this forum longer than your company has existed ).

I think the response would have been complete different if you had launched a site WITHOUT PRE-ORDERS came to the community and said "hey we
are working on a project to get FPGA below $1 per MH is there any interest".  Some involvement other than a bunch of overpromising and under-delivering.  Promise less, delivery more, be transparent and open.  That builds trust.

Hey it isn't personal man, I may even buy an FPGA from you someday.

Obviously, we did.  We demonstrated shortly thereafter.  Where's the conspiracy?  

Honestly...  at this point I feel embarrassed for taking the time to respond at all.  I think we've got a pretty good product, but if you don't want to buy it then you don't have to.  Really.  It's up to you...  you're not being forced into anything.  Just relax.

Good night.  I'm off to bed.  Merry Christmas to all.

BFL

Oh my, I have failed hard. I'm going to go cry in a corner. While crying in a corner, I'd like to ask, why you didn't you tell us?

Then why didn't you come clean at the time that your measurements were off by a factor of 4+?

And I hardly call letting one person see the machine a "public demo".

Reading comprehension much? lol...

Read it again and you'll see the answer clearly stated.   " (Answering your timing question...  about two weeks prior to public demo.)"

You see, Sky...  that's exactly what I mean.  There has been no dishonesty.  Not satisfying your curiosity by keeping the nature of our technology private isn't being dishonest.  What's relevant is performance and as far as that goes, we've been perfectly open and have shared the details along the way with both the public and our customers.       (Answering your timing question...  about two weeks prior to public demo.)

Regards,
BFL

Sorry, but to say the product is miles away from what it was claimed is patently ridiculous.  Even at the power draw and hashrate I saw, which is IMHO a worst case scenario, the product is somewhat off.  It's not "miles away" by any stretch of the imagination.  20w vs 80w.  Yes, a factor of 4.  So is 1w vs 4w, but that doesn't mean it's a huge amount in absolute terms.  Whether it's 20w or 80w, it's still better by a factor of 6 (being generous here, it's more like a factor of 7 or 8) to any GPU solution and at LEAST 3x possibly 4x better than any other FPGA solution... So trying to couch it in terms of "factors" on how off the power estimates were is disingenous.  Put it in terms of absolute values.  It's 80w (and likely the shipping version will be more efficient), compared to 20w.  I'll take the 60w increase in place of my power hungry GPUs screaming in my basement, thanks.  And personally, I'm not going to quibble over 170 - 200 MH/s as a worst case scenario, and likely less than that as well.  Would I like a 1.05 GH/s at 20w?  Hell yes, but the reality and the initial target are anything but "miles away" from each other.  

Fuck seriously.  I am trying to stay out of this, but the rampant hate and complete bullshit some of you are spewing are borderline pathological and far, far over the border of logical or reasonable.  I see mistakes and misunderstandings, but I see little if any outright dishonestly.  But I'll tell you what I do see, is a whole bucketload of a complete lack of understanding or experience in design, business operations, marketing and development.  Anyone who's actually done those things understands exactly what's happened so far and why... anyone who hasn't really shouldn't be speaking.

The animosity you're seeing on the forum is due to your lack of honesty. Bitcoiners don't like seeing fellow members scammed. You set off a lot of red flags, and rightly so. Your actual product is miles away from what you claimed it would be. You're still not answering repeated requests to disclose your chips so that an independant evaluation of your claims may be made. Your actions are causing the distrust.

Let me ask you a very direct question. When was the first time you measured the actual power draw from an actual unit?

Hi,

I wonder what it is that you think we are here at Butterfly.  Why would you assume there is a reason to distrust?  

I don't expect you to root for us, but it seems you've taken a sour angle with your repeated suggestions that we're not acting in good faith.  Yes, we made an error in power consumption estimates based on our simulation analysis but I think you know enough to understand these figures are usually a pretty good guide, so using them as our performance expectation isn't an act of malice as you suggest...  The reality is mining is a unique application to cryptography hardware and we've had to learn that wrinkle.  Nothing nefarious here.  

Furthermore, in consideration for the unknown we set an open guarantee to our customers that if we failed to meet performance or delivery estimates, we'd accept purchase cancellations with a full refund.  This was all done in good faith and we've followed through without fail while keeping our customers informed as development and manufacture worked it's way through the process.  We've demonstrated our product in the flesh to a forum member of requisite knowledge and esteem.  All things considered, he seems pretty impressed and he's reported as much.  We're now adjusting for increased power consumption which has added a few weeks to the production cycle and we're on track for product delivery in January.

Looking at this from my perspective, I just don't quite understand why you (and three others) choose to see all this in an ugly way.  I'm left to wonder why.  Are you just a forum troll who's found an opportunity to flash his great insight?  Are you secretly a disgruntled competitor?  Are you offended when a new product isn't shrink wrapped with a consumer reports stat sheet before it crosses your eye?  Are we a threat to you in some way?  Honestly, I just don't get it.

Maybe this should have been a PM, but I would appreciate an answer to the puzzle and I expect others might want to know as well.

Regards,
BFL

PS.  Merry Christmas

Well they also said they would ship product a month ago, that it would consume 19.8W and that it would operate at 1.05 GH/s.  A company can say a lot of things.  The point isn't that BFL will take the money it is just that they don't need to ship a brick to walk away with the money, they money is already theirs. Those funds are theirs and it just comes down to trust.


I love this sentiment.  Someone who placed an order in good faith should have known the company was making claims it couldn't meet.  If they didn't, were to slow cancelling, or were just too trusting it is their fault not the company making false promises.

Thats also a very biased statement as BFL said they would gladly issue refunds to those that wanted, plus if anyone was skeptical they should have withdrawn long before the window closed.

Well the earliest pre-orders are now almost 10 weeks old so BFL could ship nothing just send a "you got fucked" email and the buyer would have no recourse.  Paypal chargeback window is long since expired.

Let us pray they don't literally ship a brick ... or at least something that will turn into a brick in 4 months etc.

Some scammers get away with shipping a brick and claiming to have proof of delivery too and the buyer loses out.

Yes, it's projected shipping date is 4-6 weeks. Just like three months ago...

Thx rjk it's a lot of thread.

Not shipping yet, but will have updated brick.

Are these shipping now with an updated power brick?

Come on, guys, let's keep this thread under control and on topic.

I suppose north korea in your opinion has a majority, since everyone says they are fine with the government