[500 GH/s]HHTT -Selected Diff/Stratum/PPLNS/Paid Stales/High Availability/Tor - page 14.

zvs

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https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com

Quote from: ShadesOfMarble on April 03, 2013, 10:04:50 AM

He is offering PPS. There is no way to calculate anything dynamically. PPS means high risk for the operator, low variance for the miners but also (usually) high fees. That's the way it is.

Of course he can change the payout scheme to something less risky for him. But while the pool is PPS and the wallet is empty, the pool is bankrupt because users are not/cannot be payed out according to the advertised payment scheme.

That IS an issue.

308BTC with ~100 owed is not bankrupt.

I'm curious as to where you're pulling this bizarre definition of bankruptcy from... If I'm a week late on a credit card payment, I'm bankrupt?

ed:

The wallet has 7, with 301.37834078 BTC immature... the wallet will grow by ~25.18 in about 5 more blocks.

ed2:

after looking more at the payout rules, I'm pretty sure it's due to the 'If the balance for an address is greater than 1.0 BTC, a payout is done.' rule... so, yes, it is probably making proportional payments to anyone over 1.0 btc... which essentially just screws everyone below 60000mhash

ShadesOfMarble

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Merit: 500

He is offering PPS. There is no way to calculate anything dynamically. PPS means high risk for the operator, low variance for the miners but also (usually) high fees. That's the way it is.

Of course he can change the payout scheme to something less risky for him. But while the pool is PPS and the wallet is empty, the pool is bankrupt because users are not/cannot be payed out according to the advertised payment scheme.

That IS an issue.

Edit:

@zvs - check again. Have a look at how many users with a balance >1 exist. There is even one user with 20 BTC balance. Pool wallet currently holds 7.7119317 BTC.

zvs

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https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com

Quote from: ShadesOfMarble on April 03, 2013, 09:03:37 AM

Quote from: zvs on April 03, 2013, 07:42:28 AM

i realize payouts are being done as blocks mature, but what is the formula being used to do so?

That's only because the pool wallet is almost always empty.
fireduck didn't fill the pool wallet, he also didn't say anything about this in this thread.

I'd recommend switchting pools for now, HHTT may go bankrupt soon. (Or already is...)

it's not 'bankrupt' (it was about +175 last I checked)

i realize that the payments are delayed as it is waiting for blocks to get the 120 confirmations

My post was about the payout system being flawed (in this situation).

To the poster above, it isn't proportional at all... if it was, I wouldn't have 1.13124051 owed at 7000mhash daily while everyone at ~65000mhash has ~2.5 owed.

But if you look down even further,

http://hhtt.1209k.com/user-details.php?user=1EFhXfX9uXsbXBF3LC69GiVfS3SHCsyMR1

1500mhash with 0.73378546 owed.

Richy_T

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Activity: 2576

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1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

As long as he pays out fairly from what is found, I don't have much of an issue. I notice there are quite a few "immature" coins which presumably will be released when they're ready. Being "bankrupt" is not necessarily that much of an issue. I'm surprised anyone actually pays out before blocks are found anyway.

He probably could do with tweaking the reward a bit anyway. I'm surprised rewards aren't calculated dynamically to keep a level in the wallet anyway (given that work is paid for).

ShadesOfMarble

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Activity: 543

Merit: 500

Quote from: zvs on April 03, 2013, 07:42:28 AM

i realize payouts are being done as blocks mature, but what is the formula being used to do so?

That's only because the pool wallet is almost always empty.
fireduck didn't fill the pool wallet, he also didn't say anything about this in this thread.

I'd recommend switchting pools for now, HHTT may go bankrupt soon. (Or already is...)

Lethos

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Keep it Simple. Every Bit Matters.

I'd take a guess, it's trying to do proportional payouts, based upon available funds and how much each is owed.
So yes larger miners will appear to get more paid out.

So with my relatively timid miners 1.7Gh/s the last time I got a regular payout (0.25 Btc every day or 2) was on the 26th.
I've got trickle payments ever since, so I've got 5 or 6 days worth still owed (0.72 Btc).

One good sign is good luck has finally started occurring, 11 blocks found today already and it's only about half way through the day.
From the Calculator 12-14 Blocks is needed to maintain payouts at the pools hash rate.

zvs

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https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com

i realize payouts are being done as blocks mature, but what is the formula being used to do so?

i have 2 days worth of BTC listed as owed, while ppl with the single ASICs are currently about 4 hours behind

this is also true for 19yRn7nT4wV67xtpC7wuySBKg1p1kAxMj2, though it looks like he stopped after the last 0.03 payment

(ed: there is also someone at 1200mhash that has about 5 days owed.. essentially, the lower your hashrate, the more screwed you are with current system)

JWU42

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Quote from: techwtf on March 30, 2013, 10:59:33 PM

Quote from: JWU42 on March 29, 2013, 02:11:20 PM

Quote from: techwtf on March 29, 2013, 02:31:59 AM

@fireduck: urgent, please shutdown the iad instance for further investigation ASAP.

What was this about?

bitcoind on that machine crashed, as fireduck says.

Missed that - thanks...

techwtf

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 100

Quote from: JWU42 on March 29, 2013, 02:11:20 PM

Quote from: techwtf on March 29, 2013, 02:31:59 AM

@fireduck: urgent, please shutdown the iad instance for further investigation ASAP.

What was this about?

bitcoind on that machine crashed, as fireduck says.

doublec

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Activity: 1078

Merit: 1005

There's a good analysis of the reserves needed for a PPS pool in Meni Rosenfeld's paper on pool payout schemes. Using that formula, at 25BTC per block and 2% fee, allowing for a 1 in 1000 chance of going bankrupt, the pool needs a reserve of 4,300 BTC. If the pool tries to get by with a reserve of 1,000 BTC then it has a 20% chance of going bankrupt. Variance is a killer. There was a website that plotted pool balance variance over time based on fee but I can't locate it at the moment.

doublec

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Quote from: Richy_T on March 30, 2013, 12:29:03 PM

I figured that was per share of the eventually mined block. I guess there's room for both types but it seems odd for me for the pool organizer to be taking all the risk. I was on the Slush thread and I see their pot got emptied soon so it seems like this is not an uncommon problem.

Slush's pool doesn't do PPS so there's less risk. They pay out a proportion of that produced by the block based on the shares you've found (using a formula to reduce hopping). PPS pays out for every share submitted. So in periods of bad luck the pool pays out and hopes to catch up on the periods of good luck. Profit margins are so small on pools that 'paying out of profits' isn't much of an option during the bad periods. A 2% fee is only 0.5 btc per block. So to cover for one block's worth of bad luck, or one single orphan, will take 50 blocks for the pool operator to recover from in fees.

Richy_T

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1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

True. But there is a saying about being in a hole...

I'm not quite sure why big miners would be in a pool anyway. I understand it smooths out variance but if I was at the level where I was mining a block about every month or so, I'd probably solo. As it is, I'm such a small miner that there's a good chance I'd *never* mine a block so it makes more sense to throw in with others.

JWU42

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1000

Again - the hole was dug during the days of a 50BTC reward. Trying to get that back with a 25 BTC reward is like "pissing up a rope" Embarrassed

And yes - about 232 BTC negative here (9*50 + 3*25) in blocks found versus 293 paid. I am glad I was able to help the pool but sure wish I had an extra 230 BTC right now. I can find something to do with $20,000 Grin

Richy_T

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1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

I figured that was per share of the eventually mined block. I guess there's room for both types but it seems odd for me for the pool organizer to be taking all the risk. I was on the Slush thread and I see their pot got emptied soon so it seems like this is not an uncommon problem.

zvs

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https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com

Quote from: Richy_T on March 30, 2013, 11:55:31 AM

Quote from: zvs on March 30, 2013, 11:53:15 AM

i believe around the 18th or 19th at one point it was "only" about -250

I don't understand why payouts aren't made from profits and thus no deficit should ensue.

It's PPS, so people get paid whether a block is found or not.. the pool operator takes on the risk.

It's had some particularly horrid luck, except for about a week there in mid-march.

maybe a business partner is needed

Lethos

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Keep it Simple. Every Bit Matters.

I understand the issue at hand, the current pay out structure is quiet standard, payout per share submitted * difficulty;Simple.
It has it's downside, paying out what you don't have can occur (debt), just like the reverse can. But it is fair and quiet normal for a lot of pools.

There really is not that many miners (and bad luck) at this pool compared to others of it's size, so variance is kicking us harshly; for the most part just a handful of very powerful miners and most of them had a long string of bad luck.
The pool has some large miners (not placing blame), that have mined a lot, paid a lot, but not actually found that many blocks.
So the balance is not counteracted by those in the position were they found more blocks than they got paid for.

Technically I'm part of the problem. I found 1 block after the change to 25Btc block pay out, but paid around 43Btc in total over about the last 6 months, way before it became as popular as it is today, so I did feel some relief when I finally found a block.
The problem can correct it self, with a string of good luck and/or more miners so that variance is less of a fickle bitch to the pool.

Richy_T

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1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

Quote from: zvs on March 30, 2013, 11:53:15 AM

i believe around the 18th or 19th at one point it was "only" about -250

I don't understand why payouts aren't made from profits and thus no deficit should ensue.

zvs

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1000

https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com

i believe around the 18th or 19th at one point it was "only" about -250

JWU42

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1000

FD cannot do this at a loss forever.

Comparing payouts to blocks found FD is ahead about 250 BTC on me Cry

The deficit came about during the 50BTC rewards and now at 25BTC reward I cannot foresee how the "negative" lifetime balance can be overcome.

ShadesOfMarble

donator

Activity: 543

Merit: 500

My balance has been paid out.

Switched to another pool for now - pool wallet getting dry is no good sign...

Topic: [500 GH/s]HHTT -Selected Diff/Stratum/PPLNS/Paid Stales/High Availability/Tor - page 14. (Read 56478 times)