I don't really have a problem with the delayed payments myself... my problem is that there is no specific code in case of payment delays... so if you're under 1.00 BTC and don't have the hashrate to make more than 1BTC a day, you'll get a single daily payment which will consist of some small percentage of the available wallet. The available wallet gets emptied every hour or two by the people at 60000mhash+.
If the pool doesn't go completely 'bankrupt' (right now it has about 75BTC left, after taking wallet + immature - payments owned), it'll take me at best, several days to get the 0.71719025 owed to me... last payment was 0.23906341 (lucky as hell, really), next payment won't be for 24hrs. If I'm unlucky and a block doesn't mature in the hour before that next payment, I'll end up with something like 0.0x, since the wallet will be emptied by all the ASIC users from the hour earlier.
Good example is this:
http://hhtt.1209k.com/user-details.php?user=19yRn7nT4wV67xtpC7wuySBKg1p1kAxMj2
who had been mining at the pool nonstop for 6 months but stopped recently... well, 3 days ago... and has gotten 0.2 out of the 1 owed in those 3 days.
Topic: [500 GH/s]HHTT -Selected Diff/Stratum/PPLNS/Paid Stales/High Availability/Tor - page 13. (Read 56478 times)
April 05, 2013, 08:18:46 AM
April 05, 2013, 06:19:43 AM
Sorry to be that guy but it is PPLNS... 
PPLNS - Pay Per Last N Shares. Similar to proportional, but instead of looking at the number of shares in the round, instead looks at the last N shares, regardless of round boundaries.
A great write-up by Meni -- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/pplns-39832
PPLNS - Pay Per Last N Shares. Similar to proportional, but instead of looking at the number of shares in the round, instead looks at the last N shares, regardless of round boundaries.
A great write-up by Meni -- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/pplns-39832
April 05, 2013, 03:47:43 AM
Quote
raise PPS fee to 5% first, add merge mining NMC & you keep it all.
Fee is 10% for diff 2 and was 16% for diff 1 shares. No matter what system will be chosen, something has to change - that's what I'm advertising. Since w/o reliable payouts a pool is no good.
Obvisouly PPSLN will drive certain crowds away from the pool, people who dislike variance and favor steady payouts. However if it will make frozen funds liquid again, people will also come back to the pool.
As it stands now, for small miners (and your pool has quite a few of them), it doesn't make sense to pay a 10.4917% fee for diff 2 shares and then having to face payout problems. The attraction of the minimalistic approach of the pool is not significant good enough anymore in face of these problems. When ASIC rule earth you can always switch back to PPS again or some other "mean" 10000-difficulty system. Why don't you implement both systems, is it very complex to achieve that?
0.0425 + (0.1325/pow(32 + share_difficulty,0.6))
April 05, 2013, 03:09:15 AM
Quote
raise PPS fee to 5% first, add merge mining NMC & you keep it all.
Fee is 10% for diff 2 and was 16% for diff 1 shares. No matter what system will be chosen, something has to change - that's what I'm advertising. Since w/o reliable payouts a pool is no good.
Obvisouly PPSLN will drive certain crowds away from the pool, people who dislike variance and favor steady payouts. However if it will make frozen funds liquid again, people will also come back to the pool.
As it stands now, for small miners (and your pool has quite a few of them), it doesn't make sense to pay a 10.4917% fee for diff 2 shares and then having to face payout problems. The attraction of the minimalistic approach of the pool is not significant good enough anymore in face of these problems. When ASIC rule earth you can always switch back to PPS again or some other "mean" 10000-difficulty system. Why don't you implement both systems, is it very complex to achieve that?
April 05, 2013, 02:25:39 AM
So the pool is basically broke with long delays between when people mine and when they get paid (the pool pays out when it can).
This sucks for me because I have a bunch of risk and am not really making any money for my efforts and significant hosting costs. It sucks for miners because they are not getting paid consistently.
So I am thinking of switching to PPSLN, which has no risk for me but adds some variance to miners. Anyone with thoughts on that?
I would have the payments for a block be build into the coinbase for the block so everyone gets paid as soon as that block matures and the accounting gets much simpler.
raise PPS fee to 5% first, add merge mining NMC & you keep it all. This sucks for me because I have a bunch of risk and am not really making any money for my efforts and significant hosting costs. It sucks for miners because they are not getting paid consistently.
So I am thinking of switching to PPSLN, which has no risk for me but adds some variance to miners. Anyone with thoughts on that?
I would have the payments for a block be build into the coinbase for the block so everyone gets paid as soon as that block matures and the accounting gets much simpler.
April 05, 2013, 02:12:17 AM
So the pool is basically broke with long delays between when people mine and when they get paid (the pool pays out when it can).
This sucks for me because I have a bunch of risk and am not really making any money for my efforts and significant hosting costs. It sucks for miners because they are not getting paid consistently.
So I am thinking of switching to PPSLN, which has no risk for me but adds some variance to miners. Anyone with thoughts on that?
I would have the payments for a block be build into the coinbase for the block so everyone gets paid as soon as that block matures and the accounting gets much simpler.
This sucks for me because I have a bunch of risk and am not really making any money for my efforts and significant hosting costs. It sucks for miners because they are not getting paid consistently.
So I am thinking of switching to PPSLN, which has no risk for me but adds some variance to miners. Anyone with thoughts on that?
I would have the payments for a block be build into the coinbase for the block so everyone gets paid as soon as that block matures and the accounting gets much simpler.
April 04, 2013, 03:23:09 PM
I know FD is reliable and I trust he will fix this. But from my point of view I was lured into building trust in this pool after the first 0.01 BTC was sent after one day as stated in the pools own terms of service.
Now that I have invested weeks of hashing power into the pool, the pools own payout rules don't apply anymore?
JWU42 said:
> 1. Highest fee is just over 10%
> 2. To incur a higher fee you must choose a diff lower than the standard of 32 (3.4% fee)
1. Fees have been significantly higher until 5 days ago. They've been 16% for diff 1 if I remember correctly.
2. In this very thread it wasn't advised to mine with 32 diff with a 400 MH miner. One share each month isn't going to do you any good or the pool. So small miners are forced to pay with high fees and are forced to forfeit some of their earning as well.. ?
Now that I have invested weeks of hashing power into the pool, the pools own payout rules don't apply anymore?
JWU42 said:
> 1. Highest fee is just over 10%
> 2. To incur a higher fee you must choose a diff lower than the standard of 32 (3.4% fee)
1. Fees have been significantly higher until 5 days ago. They've been 16% for diff 1 if I remember correctly.
2. In this very thread it wasn't advised to mine with 32 diff with a 400 MH miner. One share each month isn't going to do you any good or the pool. So small miners are forced to pay with high fees and are forced to forfeit some of their earning as well.. ?
You don't have to choose 32 - 32 is DEFAULT. You have to CHOOSE to use lower (or higher) than 32 diff. Taking the small guy getting screwed out of the discussion, that was my point. It was the user's choice to select something other than the default 32 and they were doing so knowing it has higher fees.
April 04, 2013, 02:59:23 PM
Sorry to say, but this is sh*t. I mined for 3 weeks into the pool and now you're telling me, profits are gone forever and I'm stuck on electricity bills? Please fireduck, fix this. I would say I donate to your pool, but I already paid 10-15% fees for my low diff shares. Needless to say, that's an exorbitant high fee for low diff shares!
1. Highest fee is just over 10%
2. To incur a higher fee you must choose a diff lower than the standard of 32 (3.4% fee)
FD has always done right by the miners and look forward to hearing from him -- it is an issue for all but significantly moreso for the miners with lower hashrates.
April 04, 2013, 02:56:36 PM
It seems like amount paid should be proportional to the amount of time between payouts. I understand paying out less often for smaller miners but if the purse is empty, they're disproportionately penalized.
April 04, 2013, 02:43:09 PM
and because lower hashrates are penalized, since it won't attempt to pay them every hour
right now, all the people at 60000-70000mhash are between 1.0 to 1.26 owed. i'm at 0.9 with 7600mhash avg over the last day.
1EFhXfX9uXsbXBF3LC69GiVfS3SHCsyMR1 is at 0.84 owed, with avg daily hash rate of 1700. i think that's about 4 days behind, vs a couple hours for anyone that can make it to 1.0 fairly quickly
ed: since i'm already bumping at 1, and it's repaying me whenever i get back to 1, there's not much reason to switch (at least right now).. but that 1 bitcoin could quite possibly be gone forever. i sure wouldnt mine on there with anything under 60000mhash if you dont already have a 1btc balance
Good point.
April 04, 2013, 12:17:31 PM
Hi - I am seeing problems with Payouts..
These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
because the pool is short of money.These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
and because lower hashrates are penalized, since it won't attempt to pay them every hour
right now, all the people at 60000-70000mhash are between 1.0 to 1.26 owed. i'm at 0.9 with 7600mhash avg over the last day.
1EFhXfX9uXsbXBF3LC69GiVfS3SHCsyMR1 is at 0.84 owed, with avg daily hash rate of 1700. i think that's about 4 days behind, vs a couple hours for anyone that can make it to 1.0 fairly quickly
ed: since i'm already bumping at 1, and it's repaying me whenever i get back to 1, there's not much reason to switch (at least right now).. but that 1 bitcoin could quite possibly be gone forever. i sure wouldnt mine on there with anything under 60000mhash if you dont already have a 1btc balance
ok, another hourly payment triggered. now all the 66000mhash people are at 0.65 owed (emptying the available wallet), while the person at 1700mhash is still at 0.84
April 04, 2013, 11:58:44 AM
Hi - I am seeing problems with Payouts..
These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
because the pool is short of money.These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
and because lower hashrates are penalized, since it won't attempt to pay them every hour
right now, all the people at 60000-70000mhash are between 1.0 to 1.26 owed. i'm at 0.9 with 7600mhash avg over the last day.
1EFhXfX9uXsbXBF3LC69GiVfS3SHCsyMR1 is at 0.84 owed, with avg daily hash rate of 1700. i think that's about 4 days behind, vs a couple hours for anyone that can make it to 1.0 fairly quickly
ed: since i'm already bumping at 1, and it's repaying me whenever i get back to 1, there's not much reason to switch (at least right now).. but that 1 bitcoin could quite possibly be gone forever. i sure wouldnt mine on there with anything under 60000mhash if you dont already have a 1btc balance
April 04, 2013, 11:18:04 AM
Hi - I am seeing problems with Payouts..
These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
because the pool is short of money. These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
April 04, 2013, 10:53:19 AM
Hi - I am seeing problems with Payouts..
These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
These are my lasts payouts - however my "funds" are above 0.25 and most certainly above 0.00782663. Can you explain why such random payouts happen and when will I get my full funds, the schedule on the page obviously is wrong or something with payouts is broke atm. thanks
2013-04-04 09:01:28 7feefb9a1ac20a09a332035308b26dbc4e79ddd6c1782f856603486ec2ad10ea 0.00782663
2013-04-03 09:01:46 7901d456a8388c623fc46bbc826f5bf0f0e53b4b0dba74049ca322ea342845d1 0.00195646
2013-04-01 13:01:46 fd4f6b8db03fdb725ccf537ef9852f82426571da24aaa7acde22805a9e8304c2 0.07380505
2013-03-31 13:00:59 46290bf4c189032cfbcc8d78983718625c3b706c294ed485d181a4317fa34b48 0.00787946
2013-03-29 04:01:15 f8a973fb17706472cfc77e8cf07da421f61ab285fc043539176af187ca44743e 0.08283379
April 03, 2013, 03:26:17 PM
Well, Deepbit is taking a 10% fee for PPS. Guess he broke more than even. HHTT's fees are incredible low for a PPS pool. (At least when using high difficulty setting.)
yeah. even with 4% + half of fee it is still low & I can guarantee that 2TH will still stay here even the fee rise to 4%. hopefully he can add merge mining & I dont mind even he keeps all the alt coins. 
April 03, 2013, 11:36:39 AM
Well, Deepbit is taking a 10% fee for PPS. Guess he broke more than even. HHTT's fees are incredible low for a PPS pool. (At least when using high difficulty setting.)
April 03, 2013, 11:27:25 AM
Hey, I'm just musing. It's not that I don't like it. I just don't see why anyone would run a pool that way.
April 03, 2013, 11:08:20 AM
By dynamic, what I mean is something like: "Aim to keep say 100BTC in the pot. If the amount drops below 100, decrease the amount per share paid proportional (or on an accelerating curve) to the difference.
That's not PPS. That's not PPS.
Ok?
It just doesn't make much sense to me to try and stack a linear function against what is pretty much a random walk.
That's PPS. If you don't like it, don't use it. (Either as miner or as pool op)PPS itself isn't broken. No need to fix something that's not broken. What's "broken" is the "BTC buffer" of the pool. But again - that's PPS, it's the risk of the pool op. PPS is high risk for the pool op. There is nothing you can do about it, except for switchting to another payout scheme like DGM or PPLNS. Maybe fireduck should do so, if he doesn't want to keep putting more and more of his own BTC into the pool wallet.
April 03, 2013, 10:53:03 AM
By dynamic, what I mean is something like: "Aim to keep say 100BTC in the pot. If the amount drops below 100, decrease the amount per share paid proportional (or on an accelerating curve) to the difference. If there is more, increase the payout.". You can even dampen this somewhat if you think it leads to too much variance.
It just doesn't make much sense to me to try and stack a linear function against what is pretty much a random walk.
It just doesn't make much sense to me to try and stack a linear function against what is pretty much a random walk.
April 03, 2013, 10:14:35 AM
You do realize that by the time those 300 BTC are matured, a lot more shares will be submitted and the pool needs to pay out much more than those BTC *currently* owned?
Depends on the definition of "late". If the bank says you have to pay now and you are unable to do so, how do you call it?
Depends on the definition of "late". If the bank says you have to pay now and you are unable to do so, how do you call it?
Jump to: