ALLMINE INC - FPGA Cryptominer - page 12.

OurManInHavana

member

Activity: 91

Merit: 10

Quote from: RivAngE on July 17, 2018, 02:29:36 PM

In their site's FAQ, they're saying (about GPUs),

Where are my GPU cards located?
Your GPU cards are located in one of our data centers in either the United States or Europe.

So I was wondering, can't I just buy an FPGA which will be hosted in a European center and then shipped from Europe? Or no matter what, they'll ship from US to a European center and I'll get charged the import fees?

I believe Mineority has said that GPU packages could be hosted in US or Europe, but they'll only be hosting the BCU FPGA's in the US.

RivAngE

full member

Activity: 728

Merit: 169

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger

In their site's FAQ, they're saying (about GPUs),

Where are my GPU cards located?
Your GPU cards are located in one of our data centers in either the United States or Europe.

So I was wondering, can't I just buy an FPGA which will be hosted in a European center and then shipped from Europe? Or no matter what, they'll ship from US to a European center and I'll get charged the import fees?

Iamtutut

full member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 131

Quote from: NiklasFalk on July 16, 2018, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 16, 2018, 12:16:00 AM

Quote from: NiklasFalk on July 15, 2018, 02:32:14 PM

VAT on imported goods is due after delivery to the full value (including shipping and whatever import charges there will be in these trade war times). Tax on earnings is also not due until they arrive into EU.

Wrong and wrong.
VAT and custom taxes are due BEFORE the good enter, that's the custom clearance. No custom clearance, the good stays at the custom border.

It will stay in the custom clearance area (in the destination country), but that's pretty far from the Mineority farm, and reasonably close in time to the goods being shipped, not 1-3 years before.

And if the value of the thing have dropped (old, being used etc) the Import charges and VAT will be lower of course (shipping used cars in containers is commonplace).

So why pay EU VAT on "machinery" that stays in the US? If I invest in stock on Nasdaq I don't pay any EU VAT.

The customs duties have to be paid when the good is shipped and at the entry point in the EU, so before delivery. VAT for "consumption" has to be paid in the country of destination that can differ from the entry point in the EU, and also BEFORE delivery. In the meantime, the status of the good is "transit" (this rule is know as "regim 42").
I already wrote here that NO EU TAX is due on the items themselves as long as they stay hosted at mineority, read my posts here.

Talking about stocks irrelevant, there is a specific set of rules for stocks.

NiklasFalk

jr. member

Activity: 94

Merit: 1

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 16, 2018, 12:16:00 AM

Quote from: NiklasFalk on July 15, 2018, 02:32:14 PM

VAT on imported goods is due after delivery to the full value (including shipping and whatever import charges there will be in these trade war times). Tax on earnings is also not due until they arrive into EU.

Wrong and wrong.
VAT and custom taxes are due BEFORE the good enter, that's the custom clearance. No custom clearance, the good stays at the custom border.

It will stay in the custom clearance area (in the destination country), but that's pretty far from the Mineority farm, and reasonably close in time to the goods being shipped, not 1-3 years before.

And if the value of the thing have dropped (old, being used etc) the Import charges and VAT will be lower of course (shipping used cars in containers is commonplace).

So why pay EU VAT on "machinery" that stays in the US? If I invest in stock on Nasdaq I don't pay any EU VAT.

RivAngE

full member

Activity: 728

Merit: 169

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger

Has anyone bought anything from Mineority? I haven't managed to find out their payment method. I see they require you to login with Metamask, but does that also mean they require you to buy with Ethereum?
I'm not planing to spend my crypto to purchase anything at those ridiculous low prices, I'll have to use my bank to send fiat to an exchange and get crypto if they don't accept PayPal, but then I won't be able to send this big amount because of capital controls (Greece!!)

Kryptowolf512

full member

Activity: 420

Merit: 105

German Translator - Hire me on Bitcointalk!

Any other shops to buy a BCU1525?

Iamtutut

full member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 131

Quote from: NiklasFalk on July 15, 2018, 02:32:14 PM

Hosting the card can be seen as a service, and I don't think that there are (EU) VAT on services you place in the "third world". I have never paid VAT on e.g. web hosting services (but that is not proof that I shouldn't).

There is if the service is at destination of a EU resident.

Quote from: NiklasFalk on July 15, 2018, 02:32:14 PM

VAT on imported goods is due after delivery to the full value (including shipping and whatever import charges there will be in these trade war times). Tax on earnings is also not due until they arrive into EU.

Wrong and wrong.
VAT and custom taxes are due BEFORE the good enter, that's the custom clearance. No custom clearance, the good stays at the custom border.
Tax on earnings depend of fiscal treaties between countries, assuming we're talking about mineority hosting the FPGA for a non US based entity. The revenues have to be declared yearly. How they are declared is stated by the tax treaty between the hosting country (US) and the FPGA owner's country.

NiklasFalk

jr. member

Activity: 94

Merit: 1

Hosting the card can be seen as a service, and I don't think that there are (EU) VAT on services you place in the "third world". I have never paid VAT on e.g. web hosting services (but that is not proof that I shouldn't).

VAT on imported goods is due after delivery to the full value (including shipping and whatever import charges there will be in these trade war times). Tax on earnings is also not due until they arrive into EU.

I don't have a clue about B2B taxes for cards shipped to Mineorety, but being US it should be a lot less than 20% (or I've got the wrong idea).

Iamtutut

full member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 131

Quote from: TheronB on July 14, 2018, 10:31:11 PM

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 14, 2018, 02:08:55 PM

Quote from: GPUHoarder on July 14, 2018, 11:43:00 AM

I’m happy to have your accountant argue with our accountant, but on our end we have to do what the professionals we pay to handle all this tell us. I’ve had to eat $500k in VAT before because someone “didn’t think we were supposed to charge it.”, and I won’t do that again.

I don't need an accountant, dealing with custom rules is my daily job. More details in DM Wink

The point is the rules aren't going to be changed. They are going to protect themselves from VAT charges. Buyers can either suck it up and pay them or abandon their orders. No need to continue.

Rules are by the law, and the law says VAT on a good is tio be charged only when the good is to enter the EU. The buyer has to pay the VAT, not the seller.

TheronB

newbie

Activity: 64

Merit: 0

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 14, 2018, 02:08:55 PM

Quote from: GPUHoarder on July 14, 2018, 11:43:00 AM

I’m happy to have your accountant argue with our accountant, but on our end we have to do what the professionals we pay to handle all this tell us. I’ve had to eat $500k in VAT before because someone “didn’t think we were supposed to charge it.”, and I won’t do that again.

I don't need an accountant, dealing with custom rules is my daily job. More details in DM Wink

The point is the rules aren't going to be changed. They are going to protect themselves from VAT charges. Buyers can either suck it up and pay them or abandon their orders. No need to continue.

Iamtutut

full member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 131

Quote from: GPUHoarder on July 14, 2018, 11:43:00 AM

I’m happy to have your accountant argue with our accountant, but on our end we have to do what the professionals we pay to handle all this tell us. I’ve had to eat $500k in VAT before because someone “didn’t think we were supposed to charge it.”, and I won’t do that again.

I don't need an accountant, dealing with custom rules is my daily job. More details in DM Wink

GPUHoarder

member

Activity: 154

Merit: 37

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 14, 2018, 05:23:21 AM

Quote from: GPUHoarder on July 14, 2018, 02:52:35 AM

Quote from: dragonmike on July 13, 2018, 03:39:24 AM

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 13, 2018, 02:26:26 AM

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:

That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

Sorry that is not the way VAT works on collocation services. I’ve spent years dealing with this. It is not an import tax, it is a consumption tax on EU citizens. It does not matter that a US company is selling.

As such, when you buy a 1525 and it is placed into service (consumption) you pay VAT, and when you pay for it to be hosted that service is also VAT charged - all of which must be collected and remitted by us, otherwise we get audited they see the sales to EU customers and WE are responsible for the VAT. I’ve been through it.

When it is ultimately shipped to you we do a DDP.

Even if you should consider that the hosting service is consumed at destination of the EU, the VAT applies only on the hosting, that is the service. There can not have any VAT on the BCU1525 until it's delivered to the EU.

I’m happy to have your accountant argue with our accountant, but on our end we have to do what the professionals we pay to handle all this tell us. I’ve had to eat $500k in VAT before because someone “didn’t think we were supposed to charge it.”, and I won’t do that again.

Iamtutut

full member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 131

Quote from: KaydenC on July 14, 2018, 04:03:11 AM

Not a EU citizen or tax lawyer, but it appears Mineority's site only asks for the shipping address.

Is it not possible to use a throwaway US address and sell the FPGA on the platform before hosting ends, or use a freight forwarder address and only pay the tax on depreciated value of the BCU1525 after 1-3 years?

Which depreciated value ? Mineority will resale it at the same purchase price, they won't lose money. They help the community a big lot, but we shouldn't ask too much.

Iamtutut

full member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 131

Quote from: GPUHoarder on July 14, 2018, 02:52:35 AM

Quote from: dragonmike on July 13, 2018, 03:39:24 AM

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 13, 2018, 02:26:26 AM

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:

That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

Sorry that is not the way VAT works on collocation services. I’ve spent years dealing with this. It is not an import tax, it is a consumption tax on EU citizens. It does not matter that a US company is selling.

As such, when you buy a 1525 and it is placed into service (consumption) you pay VAT, and when you pay for it to be hosted that service is also VAT charged - all of which must be collected and remitted by us, otherwise we get audited they see the sales to EU customers and WE are responsible for the VAT. I’ve been through it.

When it is ultimately shipped to you we do a DDP.

Even if you should consider that the hosting service is consumed at destination of the EU, the VAT applies only on the hosting, that is the service. There can not have any VAT on the BCU1525 until it's delivered to the EU.

KaydenC

sr. member

Activity: 610

Merit: 265

Not a EU citizen or tax lawyer, but it appears Mineority's site only asks for the shipping address.

Is it not possible to use a throwaway US address and sell the FPGA on the platform before hosting ends, or use a freight forwarder address and only pay the tax on depreciated value of the BCU1525 after 1-3 years?

GPUHoarder

member

Activity: 154

Merit: 37

Quote from: dragonmike on July 13, 2018, 03:39:24 AM

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 13, 2018, 02:26:26 AM

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:

That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

Sorry that is not the way VAT works on collocation services. I’ve spent years dealing with this. It is not an import tax, it is a consumption tax on EU citizens. It does not matter that a US company is selling.

As such, when you buy a 1525 and it is placed into service (consumption) you pay VAT, and when you pay for it to be hosted that service is also VAT charged - all of which must be collected and remitted by us, otherwise we get audited they see the sales to EU customers and WE are responsible for the VAT. I’ve been through it.

When it is ultimately shipped to you we do a DDP.

dragonmike

hero member

Activity: 1274

Merit: 556

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 13, 2018, 02:26:26 AM

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:

That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

Iamtutut

full member

Activity: 1120

Merit: 131

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:

That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

colomine

newbie

Activity: 58

Merit: 0

Quote from: Iamtutut on July 11, 2018, 06:54:51 AM

...once shipped to the EU after hosting, it's only the real 2nd hand market price, at the day of shipping and according to the invoice (if authentic invoice with actual value) that is the legal base of the VAT, nothing else

@Iamtutut,
I am maybe pulling it out of a context, but why 2nd hand market price applies here and not the original price? Certainly there is a significant depreciation of value , but customs will be happy to calculate VAT on original price unless there is a rule that states otherwise. If mineority enters 2nd hand market price in the customs declaration, then it could work. But are you aware of any European rule that regulates that exact scenario (that it is the fair market value goods +delivery and not the orignal price that is taxed)?
Thanks!
PS: Thanks for the VAT links.

lok8nusa

member

Activity: 254

Merit: 11

Call 811 before you dig

@colomine:

The FPGA Land BCU-1525 is scheduled for August shipping.

@whitefire990 is working with Bittware on their FPGA, which I believe is the one that he says ships in September.

The specs/requirements have not been fully published. squirrelsresearch.com and Discord is where most of the available info is currently.

Topic: ALLMINE INC - FPGA Cryptominer - page 12. (Read 51510 times)