[ANN] ChipMixer.com - Bitcoin mixer / Bitcoin tumbler - mixing reinvented - page 9.

JollyGood

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That is just another question in a long list of other questions about exactly what happened. If someone wanted to create a mixer or anonymity based service they should at least have researched about that. As you said, to have hosting based in a jurisdiction that could damage the privacy promises they made to their customers is basically contradictory and counterproductive to their aims.

Quote from: trainer1234 on March 17, 2023, 03:19:27 AM

Well in my point of view if "he" or " them " worked way more professional then why did they choose an " onshore " hosting even if its maybe one out of X servers in their internal structure.

I mean choosing such an jurisdiction for hosting such a website doesnt make any sense. I mean we talk about hetzner which reacts very strict to any kind of abuse against their ToS and chipmixer/crypto falls for sure under their terms.

So imo i think they didnt even work properly from the beginning when choosing the server location. They might have some technical knowledge to setup the infrastructure but they didnt even think twice about the server location itself.

LoyceV

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Quote from: trainer1234 on March 17, 2023, 03:19:27 AM

Well in my point of view if "he" or " them " worked way more professional then why did they choose an " onshore " hosting even if its maybe one out of X servers in their internal structure.

My guess is they wanted a reliable party who doesn't snoop around in their server (which is loaded with private keys).

trainer1234

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Well in my point of view if "he" or " them " worked way more professional then why did they choose an " onshore " hosting even if its maybe one out of X servers in their internal structure.

I mean choosing such an jurisdiction for hosting such a website doesnt make any sense. I mean we talk about hetzner which reacts very strict to any kind of abuse against their ToS and chipmixer/crypto falls for sure under their terms.

So imo i think they didnt even work properly from the beginning when choosing the server location. They might have some technical knowledge to setup the infrastructure but they didnt even think twice about the server location itself.

aioc

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Quote from: bct_ail on March 16, 2023, 04:47:00 PM

Quote from: dragonvslinux on March 16, 2023, 07:57:48 AM

I recommend you have a browse through the court document to see the investigation into him (starts around page 28):
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

I do not understand exactly what this document is? The internet address says "press release". So this is just a general document for the press? Or documentation of all the evidence and procedure from the special agent?

In any case our forum are very common there. The word Bitcointalk ist 14 times represented.

In a democratic like the United States, all court records are public records since there is a case number I consider this the official documentation of all pieces of evidence, this is the first part and we will see more when they arrested the owners and criminal procedures start and end, this is a landmark case because the US justice and prosecutors will investigate the full responsibility of mixers on money laundering.

bct_ail

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Quote from: dragonvslinux on March 16, 2023, 05:18:46 PM

In summary, it's the court documents accusing the suspect in this case.

Thank you for the explanation. I was not quite sure if I understood the document correctly.

Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 03:47:21 PM

I can guarantee you that these 7TB include private keys, since I have seen funds withdrawn from ChipMixer (imported private keys)) disappear on the day of the ChipMixer takedown.

The authorities have certainly not only access to the servers since yesterday. Therefore they have certainly been recording the data for a long time. Is it known how old the oldest compromised private key (chip) is?

Related to the 7TB. Did chipmixer also run its own nodes? If so, then part of the 7 TB are certainly their own nodes.

dragonvslinux

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Quote from: bct_ail on March 16, 2023, 04:47:00 PM

Quote from: dragonvslinux on March 16, 2023, 07:57:48 AM

I recommend you have a browse through the court document to see the investigation into him (starts around page 28):
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

I do not understand exactly what this document is? The internet address says "press release". So this is just a general document for the press? Or documentation of all the evidence and procedure from the special agent?

Literally read the title: United States District Court. Then read sub-title: for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania
You can even read further into the criminal complaint and who is accusing who, it's not that difficult imo.
In summary, it's the court documents accusing the suspect in this case.

Renampun

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Quote from: coupable on March 16, 2023, 06:56:23 AM

Personally, I do not imagine that these guys failed to hide their identities, although their history proves how smart they are. The name of the suspect that was announced may have been used as his identity only and has nothing to do with the matter. I am not going to open an investigation here, and all I want to say is that things are open to many scenarios as long as Chipmixer keeps data on servers like any centralized website.

Reportedly they tracked Nguyen through a transaction on his paypal account and there was mention of chipmixer there.

Quote from: bct_ail on March 16, 2023, 04:47:00 PM

Quote from: dragonvslinux on March 16, 2023, 07:57:48 AM

I recommend you have a browse through the court document to see the investigation into him (starts around page 28):
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

I do not understand exactly what this document is? The internet address says "press release". So this is just a general document for the press? Or documentation of all the evidence and procedure from the special agent?

In any case our forum are very common there. The word Bitcointalk ist 14 times represented.

and on page 22 is the first-word "bitcointalk" forum written.

bct_ail

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Quote from: dragonvslinux on March 16, 2023, 07:57:48 AM

I recommend you have a browse through the court document to see the investigation into him (starts around page 28):
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

I do not understand exactly what this document is? The internet address says "press release". So this is just a general document for the press? Or documentation of all the evidence and procedure from the special agent?

In any case our forum are very common there. The word Bitcointalk ist 14 times represented.

JollyGood

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Quote from: TryNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:25:26 PM

I'm pretty sure ChipMixer never used Cloudflare. Actually, it's in the DoJ's case document that they were very much against CF.

I was under the impression Chipmixer used Cloudflare in the early days after their inception and that proved problematic for the owner. I could be wrong about that though.

Quote from: TryNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:25:26 PM

In the context of the chain of quotes, they were talking about Sinbad, another competitor, which appears to use Cloudflare.

Mixers using Cloudflare or any DDoS prevention website seems completely counterproductive, it raises the question why they would even consider using those types of service.

Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 03:47:21 PM

My issue is that you can use almost anything to launder money. Gambling sites, physical cash, privacy coins, CoinJoin, and any privacy measure really.
Just like you can plan crimes using privacy-focused messengers or GPG emails.
In both cases, I think that the fact you can abuse a system does not make it a morally bad system. These systems have good intentions and are sometimes vital for many people's lives.

I tend to agree with the notion that just because a service can or could be manipulated or misused does not mean it is morally reprehensible nor that the people operating it are encouraging bad people to participate in criminal activity. Having said that, the most important thing for them to worry about is self-preservation and to take steps to protect themselves from prosecution and for that they need to demonstrate they have at least tried to actively prevent misuse of their service. I mean, there is a fine line behind any mixer such as Chipmixer and any exchange such as Binance.

Who knows, maybe in the coming months or years Binance will be suffering the same fate with allegations of money laundering against their owner Changpeng Zhao, that eventuality does not seem impossible.

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Quote from: joker_josue on March 16, 2023, 12:16:58 PM

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 16, 2023, 11:45:06 AM

Quote from: mindrust on March 16, 2023, 11:36:34 AM

I think people only care if they are getting paid at this point.

The campaign began today. I had to hurry. I haven't used the service yet, but I will.

On the 3rd of March, I shared my first experience using mixers on the Portuguese local tab. I had never felt the need to use it before, but I wanted to try it.

I tested 3 mixers, including the ChipMixer, but now it is no longer usable.

Do you think it would be interesting for me to create a topic in English about the subject? If yes, what will be the best board?

I do think so, yes. Especially since it seems to be a new / unknown service and we suddenly see ads for it everywhere. As I mentioned already, I have serious privacy concerns due to the usage of Cloudflare, as TryNinja correctly explained. So it would be good to know whether this is just a money grab for forum users or an actual ChipMixer alternative that they recommend using.

Quote from: PawGo on March 16, 2023, 02:07:43 PM

Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 11:35:27 AM

By having the private keys, law enforcement was able to seize all the Bitcoin controlled by those keys.
If ChipMixer would have deleted them after handing out a chip, they wouldn't have been able to do that.

We do not know what it the content and source of 7GB data mentioned before. I may imagine the situation where CM operator deleted private keys and/or session data as it was promised, but if server has been hosted using serious datacenter, regular backups were done. In my opinion it is not impossible that some data comes from backups (restore points) made by hosting operator.

It is 7TB. If backups were done that include the private keys, that was a big mistake. I can guarantee you that these 7TB include private keys, since I have seen funds withdrawn from ChipMixer (imported private keys)) disappear on the day of the ChipMixer takedown.

Quote from: JollyGood on March 16, 2023, 03:23:03 PM

It was inevitable at some stage money would be laundered through Chipmixer as they will be through virtually all mixers therefore the service is too risky to operate.

My issue is that you can use almost anything to launder money. Gambling sites, physical cash, privacy coins, CoinJoin, and any privacy measure really.
Just like you can plan crimes using privacy-focused messengers or GPG emails.
In both cases, I think that the fact you can abuse a system does not make it a morally bad system. These systems have good intentions and are sometimes vital for many people's lives.

TryNinja

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Quote from: JollyGood on March 16, 2023, 03:23:03 PM

It does make you think about such a high level on anonymity on part of Chipmixer yet they decided to use Cloudflare. Why would they do that if they were serious about anonymity?

I'm pretty sure ChipMixer never used Cloudflare. Actually, it's in the DoJ's case document that they were very much against CF.

Quote

While ChipMixer was experiencing DDoS attacks in September and October
2017, NGUYEN posted to BitcoinTalk explaining why he did not use Cloudflare, a popular
counter-DDoS platform, stating, “In our case, if we would use Cloudflare, Cloudflare would
know input addresses and private keys. Cloudflare is US company so it is reasonable to think
that any three letter institution could get an access by court order.”

In the context of the chain of quotes, they were talking about Sinbad, another competitor, which appears to use Cloudflare.

JollyGood

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It does make you think about such a high level on anonymity on part of Chipmixer yet they decided to use Cloudflare. Why would they do that if they were serious about anonymity?

If Chipmixer was run by an individual then he might not have covered all possible areas of anonymity even if he tried. Apart from the PayPal issue there were other clues that he left behind that got him caught which shows he probably did not have a team with him. Using Cloudflare had advantages but not for any anonymity based website.

It was inevitable at some stage money would be laundered through Chipmixer as they will be through virtually all mixers therefore the service is too risky to operate. The accusations made by the FBI are serious and after he is eventually arrested he will probably serve a very long sentence as the law enforcement agencies would want to make an example of him.

Quote from: TryNinja on March 16, 2023, 12:33:08 PM

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 16, 2023, 11:45:06 AM

Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 11:35:27 AM

Not a good idea to go through Cloudflare, which decrypt and cache the whole traffic, if we want to really improve our privacy..

I'm neither in favor of Cloudflare, but I'm not quite sure what's the problem if you're behind Tor-- besides of course the fact that it's a pain in the ass to complete the captcha (if any). I'm not an expert on this field, but isn't there a problem with DDoS-ing non-protected websites? I remember ChipMixer getting down for maintenance quite frequently in the past.

I think the problem is that everything you see they can also see. Basically, Cloudflare knows every step of your mixing process, and we all know that Cloudflare is a single email from handling all the data to a 3 letters agency (as we learned through ChipMixer, evidenced by the DoJ paper - P.S I'm just explaining what I read, don't sue me Mr DoJ, tyvm)

coolcoinz

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Quote from: dragonvslinux on March 16, 2023, 07:57:48 AM

Unfortunately, having clearnet sites and un-encrypted emails with google/yahoo/protonmail etc means it only takes one slip up.

Protonmail is encrypted. AFAIK they weren't able to access the emails, but the name of the email gave them a clue where to look next. They got to the email name, so they started to look for this email in various domain registrations, forum accounts, and also for the alias used in the email.
They were also checking IP addresses used along with the email for various logins, domains, and so on.
Basically they were gathering anything they could, like if the account had a phone number as password recovery, they'd check that number. If it had an IP address that someone used to log in, they'd search for that IP and if it was used with other email providers.

Quote

Basically warrants for information went to numerous services from email to social media to exchanges, leading them eventually to him via different alias'. Whether he was simply involved with hosting the clearnet site, or even just a user, rather than admin, is another story though as the evidence seems to lack his direct involvement. Unlike with previous darkweb market takedowns for example, it's usually a requirement to catch the suspect "logged in" as it were, for concrete evidence.

That's correct. The fact that a user registered a domain, or had admin rights, doesn't make him the only person running the show, but the US likes to give people the good old stick before the carrot treatment. The idea is to get him to talk, give up everything, and later screw him into a life sentence like they did with Ross. Poor guy gave up his wallet passwords in hope for lower sentence and got life anyway.

PawGo

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Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 11:35:27 AM

By having the private keys, law enforcement was able to seize all the Bitcoin controlled by those keys.
If ChipMixer would have deleted them after handing out a chip, they wouldn't have been able to do that.

We do not know what it the content and source of 7GB data mentioned before. I may imagine the situation where CM operator deleted private keys and/or session data as it was promised, but if server has been hosted using serious datacenter, regular backups were done. In my opinion it is not impossible that some data comes from backups (restore points) made by hosting operator.

TryNinja

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 16, 2023, 11:45:06 AM

Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 11:35:27 AM

Not a good idea to go through Cloudflare, which decrypt and cache the whole traffic, if we want to really improve our privacy..

I'm neither in favor of Cloudflare, but I'm not quite sure what's the problem if you're behind Tor-- besides of course the fact that it's a pain in the ass to complete the captcha (if any). I'm not an expert on this field, but isn't there a problem with DDoS-ing non-protected websites? I remember ChipMixer getting down for maintenance quite frequently in the past.

I think the problem is that everything you see they can also see. Basically, Cloudflare knows every step of your mixing process, and we all know that Cloudflare is a single email from handling all the data to a 3 letters agency (as we learned through ChipMixer, evidenced by the DoJ paper - P.S I'm just explaining what I read, don't sue me Mr DoJ, tyvm)

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 16, 2023, 11:45:06 AM

Quote from: mindrust on March 16, 2023, 11:36:34 AM

I think people only care if they are getting paid at this point.

The campaign began today. I had to hurry. I haven't used the service yet, but I will.

On the 3rd of March, I shared my first experience using mixers on the Portuguese local tab. I had never felt the need to use it before, but I wanted to try it.

I tested 3 mixers, including the ChipMixer, but now it is no longer usable.

Do you think it would be interesting for me to create a topic in English about the subject? If yes, what will be the best board?

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 11:35:27 AM

Not a good idea to go through Cloudflare, which decrypt and cache the whole traffic, if we want to really improve our privacy..

I'm neither in favor of Cloudflare, but I'm not quite sure what's the problem if you're behind Tor-- besides of course the fact that it's a pain in the ass to complete the captcha (if any). I'm not an expert on this field, but isn't there a problem with DDoS-ing non-protected websites? I remember ChipMixer getting down for maintenance quite frequently in the past.

Quote from: mindrust on March 16, 2023, 11:36:34 AM

I think people only care if they are getting paid at this point.

The campaign began today. I had to hurry. I haven't used the service yet, but I will.

mindrust

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Quote from: n0nce on March 16, 2023, 11:35:27 AM

Quote from: NotATether on March 16, 2023, 09:51:36 AM

Quote from: jack80 on March 16, 2023, 09:42:55 AM

by now chipmixer is gone. What are the best alternatives right now?

The services section has a good headcount of mixers to look at such as Coinonomize.biz, YoMix and sinbad.

I saw a few people wearing the sinbad signature, but after opening the site through Tor, I was greeted with a Cloudflare page. Not a good idea to go through Cloudflare, which decrypt and cache the whole traffic, if we want to really improve our privacy..
Will look at the others later.

I think people only care if they are getting paid at this point. Grin

n0nce

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Quote from: NotATether on March 16, 2023, 09:51:36 AM

Quote from: jack80 on March 16, 2023, 09:42:55 AM

by now chipmixer is gone. What are the best alternatives right now?

The services section has a good headcount of mixers to look at such as Coinonomize.biz, YoMix and sinbad.

I saw a few people wearing the sinbad signature, but after opening the site through Tor, I was greeted with a Cloudflare page. Not a good idea to go through Cloudflare, which decrypt and cache the whole traffic, if we want to really improve our privacy..
Will look at the others later.

Quote from: trainer1234 on March 16, 2023, 09:02:46 AM

So what i dont understand is, there is no extra gain of tracement only that the LE is having the privatekeys or am i having a wrong conclusion?

By having the private keys, law enforcement was able to seize all the Bitcoin controlled by those keys.
If ChipMixer would have deleted them after handing out a chip, they wouldn't have been able to do that.

NotATether

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Quote from: jack80 on March 16, 2023, 09:42:55 AM

by now chipmixer is gone. What are the best alternatives right now?

The services section has a good headcount of mixers to look at such as Coinonomize.biz, YoMix and sinbad.

Topic: [ANN] ChipMixer.com - Bitcoin mixer / Bitcoin tumbler - mixing reinvented - page 9. (Read 92822 times)