Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning - page 863. (Read 2007090 times)

some mentioned befor that the taker could report the hf

i have some questions:
if that person did short eth and got millions out of that
and if that person holds now the eth
that person does not need to show its id it can also form a fond and let a lawyer be frontman.

am i right?

if the takers act is reported
isnt then there the risk that the white hat act will be investigated too ?

i am not sure but did they ask all the dao holders for permition and did they get it ?

if not isnt that the same crime ?
in front of the law the intention might affect the punishment one gets but does not change the creteria what is a crime and what not

so if the taker wants to know how the law sees his/hers acts, could he/she report the white hat attack ? and see what the law does ?

and is it a crime at all as long as it is locked in the childdao ?

Interesting questions I also thought about or more: I tried to find answers for that, other opinions. But it seems as if even those who are really deep into the subject are not totally sure how to handle this legally. Some believe: The smart contract is the "law" written in code. If that should be the case also juristically the Hacker wouldn't even be a Hacker.

If that should be wrong, and the Hack would be seen as illegal, I believe that the White Hats are not totally the same, even if legally not on the safe side.

The most interesting question is under the line what the DAO is legally. Most likely there are no laws for such freaky-science-fiction-firms ;-) It's something that is new in a lot of ways. But while I believed it's a really interesting social experiment I changed my mind about it when I saw that it was pumped up to this ridiculous overahundredmilliondollarthing. I believe that says more about Ethereum and slock.it than just that they have some creative ideas. It needs some intense intentions to risk the Ethereum-ecosystem with something like that and it would have been a risk anyway - also without a hack.

i agree with you.
the dao was a very risky thing and it was pumped . i was invested in ether but i sold . seeing how they deal with this now. even if one can now make easy fast profit. id rather not be part of it . i hoped after i read some papers from vitalik that the change of paradigma that i sensed in his ideas will set how ether is established. no more greed comunity . but it seems its just the same
like bailouts
i saw how on reddit all the contra hf coments are voted down.
its a shame.
i guess if we want a mayority to judge we need first to educate mayority what are our setings in ethic and have a strong moral grow in them .
otherwise its like now a lynchmop decides and defamating everyone who dares to ask unwanted questions.

nihilnegativum

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Perhaps the attacker would be another Voltaire.

tempus

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Quote from: roselee on July 15, 2016, 01:29:01 PM

some mentioned befor that the taker could report the hf

i have some questions:
if that person did short eth and got millions out of that
and if that person holds now the eth
that person does not need to show its id it can also form a fond and let a lawyer be frontman.

am i right?

if the takers act is reported
isnt then there the risk that the white hat act will be investigated too ?

i am not sure but did they ask all the dao holders for permition and did they get it ?

if not isnt that the same crime ?
in front of the law the intention might affect the punishment one gets but does not change the creteria what is a crime and what not

so if the taker wants to know how the law sees his/hers acts, could he/she report the white hat attack ? and see what the law does ?

and is it a crime at all as long as it is locked in the childdao ?

Interesting questions I also thought about or more: I tried to find answers for that, other opinions. But it seems as if even those who are really deep into the subject are not totally sure how to handle this legally. Some believe: The smart contract is the "law" written in code. If that should be the case also juristically the Hacker wouldn't even be a Hacker.

If that should be wrong, and the Hack would be seen as illegal, I believe that the White Hats are not totally the same, even if legally not on the safe side.

The most interesting question is under the line what the DAO is legally. Most likely there are no laws for such freaky-science-fiction-firms ;-) It's something that is new in a lot of ways. But while I believed it's a really interesting social experiment I changed my mind about it when I saw that it was pumped up to this ridiculous overahundredmilliondollarthing. I believe that says more about Ethereum and slock.it than just that they have some creative ideas. It needs some intense intentions to risk the Ethereum-ecosystem with something like that and it would have been a risk anyway - also without a hack.

Auponef

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It is difficult to predict the price of the Ethereum and its future. The price is rising now, but who knows in a few years.

owlcatz

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i am personaly disapointed about the moral of the ether
its a shame
and i am not pro"taker" i am pissed off about that act it destroyed something that could have been beautiful

That is the problem in itself - if they don't hardfork, they would maintain integrity/morals and the thief gets his money. If they do HF, the question of blockchain integrity is out the window, and the "crime/theft/act" gets erased. Either way sucks, but look at it another way - When Mt. Gox happened, did the bitcoin devs hardfork the code to erase the "crimes"? No, and it was never even thought about.

In this case, you have the developers of ETH who have invested in the failed DAO calling the shots. Very strange, and sort of makes the whole ETH project look bad, IMO.

Anyhow, it was an interesting concept, too bad it failed either way.

roselee

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Quote from: owlcatz on July 15, 2016, 01:20:31 PM

some mentioned befor that the taker could report the hf

i have some questions:
if that person did short eth and got millions out of that
and if that person holds now the eth
that person does not need to show its id it can also form a fond and let a lawyer be frontman.

am i right?

if the takers act is reported
isnt then there the risk that the white hat act will be investigated too ?

i am not sure but did they ask all the dao holders for permition and did they get it ?

if not isnt that the same crime ?
in front of the law the intention might affect the punishment one gets but does not change the creteria what is a crime and what not

so if the taker wants to know how the law sees his/hers acts, could he/she report the white hat attack ? and see what the law does ?

and is it a crime at all as long as it is locked in the childdao ?

I don't think even a lawyer could tell you the answers to any of those questions to be honest. There isn't really a precedent for anything like this before, it's very new & different, also there are different points of view depending on how you look at the whole situation.

well i guess a lawyer if interested might be able
its so new there is no precednt
but there is a lot of money in it
i wonder what will happen next

i am personaly disapointed about the moral of the ether
its a shame
and i am not pro"taker" i am pissed off about that act it destroyed something that could have been beautiful
but then the slockit and the ether com did know about the bug for weeks befor it happened.
and did nothing
its a shame

owlcatz

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Quote from: cohnhead on July 15, 2016, 12:21:25 PM

some mentioned befor that the taker could report the hf

i have some questions:
if that person did short eth and got millions out of that
and if that person holds now the eth
that person does not need to show its id it can also form a fond and let a lawyer be frontman.

am i right?

if the takers act is reported
isnt then there the risk that the white hat act will be investigated too ?

i am not sure but did they ask all the dao holders for permition and did they get it ?

if not isnt that the same crime ?
in front of the law the intention might affect the punishment one gets but does not change the creteria what is a crime and what not

so if the taker wants to know how the law sees his/hers acts, could he/she report the white hat attack ? and see what the law does ?

and is it a crime at all as long as it is locked in the childdao ?

I don't think even a lawyer could tell you the answers to any of those questions to be honest. There isn't really a precedent for anything like this before, it's very new & different, also there are different points of view depending on how you look at the whole situation.

roselee

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Activity: 1078

Merit: 1000

some mentioned befor that the taker could report the hf

i have some questions:
if that person did short eth and got millions out of that
and if that person holds now the eth
that person does not need to show its id it can also form a fond and let a lawyer be frontman.

am i right?

if the takers act is reported
isnt then there the risk that the white hat act will be investigated too ?

i am not sure but did they ask all the dao holders for permition and did they get it ?

if not isnt that the same crime ?
in front of the law the intention might affect the punishment one gets but does not change the creteria what is a crime and what not

so if the taker wants to know how the law sees his/hers acts, could he/she report the white hat attack ? and see what the law does ?

and is it a crime at all as long as it is locked in the childdao ?

roselee

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Merit: 1000

Quote from: roselee on July 15, 2016, 11:20:21 AM

Quote from: frostminer on July 15, 2016, 10:07:32 AM

It would probably take atleast 10 minutes for investigators to figure out who the shorter is.

Has anyone even reported this crime?

lol no none has reported it
they say "the code" is the judge the law and the executor,
no investigation was done

big money was lost becose of lausy code .
what i know are most of the "solvers" invested means they are among them who might lose if there is no HF

welcome brave new world order

maybe no one reported to authorities....not sure if it has to be reported for some agency to investigate...heck its all over news. And being that's bitfinex is operating lawfully, for sure bitfinex is in the process of trying to finding out who did it ( they have a host of other reasons to find out too)

but just imagine for a minute that the "taker" ( the retorik hacker or attacker is impimenting wrongful doing befor prove) did just what the code said
then he didnt do wrong. investors can say the creators are to blame for lausy coding and sue them
but if the taker did not hack the code i guess there is no crime done by the law . ethicaly its different. the taker did know the dao wasnt ment to be used like that .
but anyway .
i think takeing it back is then the crime that will be reported . becouse the internet knows who did it there are names the pools are knowen .
the devs and so on.
the taker is lucky that person is anonymus.

roselee

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Quote from: cohnhead on July 15, 2016, 10:25:14 AM

Quote from: frostminer on July 15, 2016, 10:07:32 AM

It would probably take atleast 10 minutes for investigators to figure out who the shorter is.

Has anyone even reported this crime?

maybe yes maybe no....
i think bitfinex has been implementing aml/kyc to satisfy US banking laws (as they have already been assessed a pretty heavy fine). I not so sure what kind of documentation one has to provide if from another country other than US. Also, again, DAO attacker has a fairly robust skill set. I would imagine he/she/they set their account up utilizing whatever means necessary to hide identity. The short supposedly made a million dollars...setting up a fake identity for sure costs a lot less ..lol

do you know if there is a legal problem for exchanges ? after the fork ?

cohnhead

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Quote from: roselee on July 15, 2016, 11:20:21 AM

Quote from: frostminer on July 15, 2016, 10:07:32 AM

It would probably take atleast 10 minutes for investigators to figure out who the shorter is.

Has anyone even reported this crime?

lol no none has reported it
they say "the code" is the judge the law and the executor,
no investigation was done

big money was lost becose of lausy code .
what i know are most of the "solvers" invested means they are among them who might lose if there is no HF

welcome brave new world order

maybe no one reported to authorities....not sure if it has to be reported for some agency to investigate...heck its all over news. And being that's bitfinex is operating lawfully, for sure bitfinex is in the process of trying to finding out who did it ( they have a host of other reasons to find out too)

roselee

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Quote from: frostminer on July 15, 2016, 10:07:32 AM

It would probably take atleast 10 minutes for investigators to figure out who the shorter is.

Has anyone even reported this crime?

lol no none has reported it
they say "the code" is the judge the law and the executor,
no investigation was done

big money was lost becose of lausy code .
what i know are most of the "solvers" invested means they are among them who might lose if there is no HF

welcome brave new world order

cohnhead

hero member

Activity: 840

Merit: 1000

Quote from: frostminer on July 15, 2016, 10:07:32 AM

It would probably take atleast 10 minutes for investigators to figure out who the shorter is.

Has anyone even reported this crime?

maybe yes maybe no....
i think bitfinex has been implementing aml/kyc to satisfy US banking laws (as they have already been assessed a pretty heavy fine). I not so sure what kind of documentation one has to provide if from another country other than US. Also, again, DAO attacker has a fairly robust skill set. I would imagine he/she/they set their account up utilizing whatever means necessary to hide identity. The short supposedly made a million dollars...setting up a fake identity for sure costs a lot less ..lol

frostminer

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It would probably take atleast 10 minutes for investigators to figure out who the shorter is.

Has anyone even reported this crime?

ph4nt0m

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Scavenger of Crypto Sorrow

Quote from: 110110101 on July 15, 2016, 07:36:40 AM

Quote from: ph4nt0m on July 15, 2016, 07:08:46 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on July 15, 2016, 06:11:32 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on July 15, 2016, 03:54:01 AM

Yes I have noticed there is already a wave of buying going on right now. It looks like the people are having confidence in buying again.

Those are the losers.
It is obvious now that profiting from a smart contract on the eth network is a risky business as it will be hardforked if the majority of losers decide you're too profitable.

I doubt that a hard fork will just happen because people think it is too profitable.

It is happening right in front of our eyes. Majority of losers voted to confiscate the wealth of a single person because smart contract he signed on ethereum network is too profitable.

Becoin little word of advice. This is a decentralized p2p network. If you don't like the direction the majority goes start your own fork, coin etc. buy some mining hw put your money where your mouth is and redirect the network if you can. Otherwise suck it up. You look like the hacker or are good buddies with him. Just saying. And in case you haven't noticed every time you fud up this thread price rises.

Best Regards
d57heinz

What if some folks continue mining and using the original Ethereum? For whatever reasons. We'll have two coins under the same name.

It wouldn't matter so much if two coins have the same name. If/when enough mining power supports one of the two forks then that side becomes the winner. Those who stayed on the wrong side of the fork, eg continue to use an old wallet/daemon and continue PoW on another branch would just be orphaned on the main chain. So, in effect, staying on the wrong side of the fork becomes a waste.

There will be no main chain after the hard fork. There will be two Ethereums. Everyone is free to follow either one. It's a matter of taste, etc.

cohnhead

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on July 15, 2016, 03:54:01 AM

Yes I have noticed there is already a wave of buying going on right now. It looks like the people are having confidence in buying again.

Those are the losers.
It is obvious now that profiting from a smart contract on the eth network is a risky business as it will be hardforked if the majority of losers decide you're too profitable.

I doubt that a hard fork will just happen because people think it is too profitable.

It is happening right in front of our eyes. Majority of losers voted to confiscate the wealth of a single person because smart contract he signed on ethereum network is too profitable.

becoin, some would disagree , majority voted to hf because someone violated spirit of the DAO. It was an act that was not in the best interest of a majority of DAO holders. Therefore they wont let it stand. Again, "hacker" knows more about workings of DAO than most people ( at most 500 people worldwide could've accomplished DAO hack...probably less) He/she/they knew they would never be able to use those DAO tokens and therefore simultaneously opened massive short positions of bitfinex. That's where profit was made

110110101

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Quote from: ph4nt0m on July 15, 2016, 07:08:46 AM

Quote from: d57heinz on July 15, 2016, 06:11:32 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on July 15, 2016, 03:54:01 AM

Yes I have noticed there is already a wave of buying going on right now. It looks like the people are having confidence in buying again.

Those are the losers.
It is obvious now that profiting from a smart contract on the eth network is a risky business as it will be hardforked if the majority of losers decide you're too profitable.

I doubt that a hard fork will just happen because people think it is too profitable.

It is happening right in front of our eyes. Majority of losers voted to confiscate the wealth of a single person because smart contract he signed on ethereum network is too profitable.

Becoin little word of advice. This is a decentralized p2p network. If you don't like the direction the majority goes start your own fork, coin etc. buy some mining hw put your money where your mouth is and redirect the network if you can. Otherwise suck it up. You look like the hacker or are good buddies with him. Just saying. And in case you haven't noticed every time you fud up this thread price rises.

Best Regards
d57heinz

What if some folks continue mining and using the original Ethereum? For whatever reasons. We'll have two coins under the same name.

It wouldn't matter so much if two coins have the same name. If/when enough mining power supports one of the two forks then that side becomes the winner. Those who stayed on the wrong side of the fork, eg continue to use an old wallet/daemon and continue PoW on another branch would just be orphaned on the main chain. So, in effect, staying on the wrong side of the fork becomes a waste.

ph4nt0m

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Activity: 591

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Scavenger of Crypto Sorrow

Quote from: d57heinz on July 15, 2016, 06:11:32 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on July 15, 2016, 03:54:01 AM

Yes I have noticed there is already a wave of buying going on right now. It looks like the people are having confidence in buying again.

Those are the losers.
It is obvious now that profiting from a smart contract on the eth network is a risky business as it will be hardforked if the majority of losers decide you're too profitable.

I doubt that a hard fork will just happen because people think it is too profitable.

It is happening right in front of our eyes. Majority of losers voted to confiscate the wealth of a single person because smart contract he signed on ethereum network is too profitable.

Becoin little word of advice. This is a decentralized p2p network. If you don't like the direction the majority goes start your own fork, coin etc. buy some mining hw put your money where your mouth is and redirect the network if you can. Otherwise suck it up. You look like the hacker or are good buddies with him. Just saying. And in case you haven't noticed every time you fud up this thread price rises.

Best Regards
d57heinz

What if some folks continue mining and using the original Ethereum? For whatever reasons. We'll have two coins under the same name.

d57heinz

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