[ANN] [MINT] Mintcoin (POS / 5%) [NO ICO] [Fair distro, community maintained] - page 232.

coolbeans94

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Mintcoin: Get some

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:18:23 PM

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 08:14:01 PM

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

So what will currently happen once 70b coins is reached? Just continue minting at 5% rate?

Yep.

If this is true, then it might actually be a good thing. As the actual increase in the total money supply will really be much less than 5% (like about 3.2%) and then you have your problem of lost coins and deflationary problems solved. If this is true, then Mintcoin might be perfect just the way it is and may never need to be tinkered with at all. The transaction fee would not need to be adjusted lower as frequently, if ever. Only time will tell. I say that for now, just leave the coin the way it is, and maybe a few years into the 5% rate check back and see if any tinkering may be needed. But don't be in a rush to change stuff, as this is the architecture of the coin itself. Mintcoin is really a solid coin, even if some investors don't realize it yet.

coolbeans94

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Activity: 613

Merit: 500

Mintcoin: Get some

Quote from: acceptance2 on July 30, 2014, 08:34:53 PM

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 08:24:06 PM

Quote from: acceptance2 on July 30, 2014, 07:49:32 PM

1. The high number of coins is not irrelevant. It's one of the first things any real potential investor looks at.
2. By your very argument, the high interest rate has not in fact incentivised people, this is reflected in the current price of the coin.
3. What makes the coin more rare is having less of it, not more. That's the very definition of rare - less of.

Banks are giving less than 2.4% for 72 month CDs. If our POS rate was 10% - 12% you're saying that's not attractive enough to attract some investment money? I think it is more than adequate.

Lowering the number of coins would only influence the unit price per per coin, not the market cap. Market cap is where the real value is. The number of coins has no bearing on the market capitalization. If you somehow were to divide the total amount of coins in existence in half, the market cap would be the exact same.
The high interest rate IS incentivising people..Mintcoin has a high active minting participation rate over 63% currently, and growing. This is good for security.
You can't create value out of nothing. Value comes from many places...such as the mathematical value in the protocol itself, utility of the coin. etc.

The number of coins has a very real effect on market cap when it prevents investors from coming on board. So by default, it has a very real indirect effect on market cap.

The unit price per coin can actually have a very real effect on market participants. Take Bitcoin for example. Once it hit the $100 level, the amount of participation among both media and participants increased dramatically. The majority of people would rather pay MORE for something than LESS. It's why early adopters always stand alone - the masses always come later. Price plays a very important psychological role - don't kid yourself.

I understand what you are saying but it is purely psychological. And that can go both ways...Now bitcoin is running into the problem that nobody wants to pay $600 for 1 coin. It is psychologically too expensive...nobody wants a fraction of a coin. So in this sense Mintcoin is at an advantage, as it has much greater upward price scalability.
21,000,000 coins is not the reason Bitcoin has all it's value. Bitcoin has all it's value for reason outside of the quantity of coins. If all that gave a coin it's value was how few of them there are then try making a crypto that only gives out 10 coins max... it will be worthless unless you can use it. A max of 10 coins does not have enough divisible units to make is liquid enough to be practical for use in exchange for goods or services, so it will be a worthless coin, no value. The fact that Mintcoin actually has a lot of units makes it more valuable because it gives greater opportunity for upward scalability. The fact that some "investors" out there, whoever they are, don't understand the value in coin liquidity yet, it is their problem. Look long-term, not just at what will pump the price short-term. Real actual value comes from a stable useable coin, not "just" rarity. If it is too rare, nobody can use it as a medium of exchange.

coolbeans94

hero member

Activity: 613

Merit: 500

Mintcoin: Get some

Quote from: DougB62 on July 30, 2014, 08:30:51 PM

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:59 PM

Are you serious? Huh

DO NOT CHANGE THE COIN!!!!

1. The high number of coins is irrelevant...More is actually better because it gives the the coin liquidity. 70,000,000,000 is good don't change it.
2. The current interest rate needs to be high somewhat high at first and is a good thing especially in the early years. POS is how the coin is secured, and so if the POS reward is not high enough, it will not incentivise people to hold their wallets open and do POS minting actively, so the security of the coin relies on this. Do not change this!
3. The coin cap is needed to make the coin rare, so keep it. Once the cap is reached only transaction fees will remain going to the POS minters, and if you are concerned about it becoming too expensive, the only change that we will ever have to do is lower the transaction fee form time to time.

Do not change the parameters! The parameters are what makes Mintcoin uniquely Mintcoin. Changing them would be making an entirely different coin.

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

I get it... there is nothing in the code to halt staking after 70B coins have been produced - i.e., runaway inflation.

How hard would it be to implement this feature? (At whatever level should be chosen as a market cap - say 20B)

If it were implemented, wouldn't it defeat the final ~1.5% interest to replace "lost" supply?

Wouldn't halting any interest dissuade investment? I know it seems like a positive aspect to me, as long as it isn't hyper-inflationary.

Or am I completely missing your point?

People are confusing the term inflation and using the term inflation incorrectly.

An increase in the money supply is not inflation.

Inflation is when you have more money needed to buy a good or service. (this can happen if you have too much of an increase in the money supply). But increase in the money supply itself is not inflation. Inflation of the money supply is an increase in the money supply....but inflation itself is not an increase in the money supply, get the difference?

In all reality, what we all need to be concerned about is net real "devaluation". Devaluation only comes if you are not minting.

With Mintcoin active POS minters are rewarded currently 20% per year, but since only about 63% of coins are actively minting, the overall increase in the money supply is currently less than 13% per year. So if you are a minter, then you have nothing to worry about... you are actually gaining value by the difference which is 7% per year. Right now, the only possible way that any of your money is being devalued is if you are not minting, and if that is the case your mintcoins are being devalued at less than 13% per year...and this will drop down to about 3.2% once we enter the 5% POS reward in a few years. If you are actively Minting your coins, you are gaining value of 7% overall right now.

acceptance2

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Activity: 453

Merit: 250

Quote from: DougB62 on July 30, 2014, 08:34:04 PM

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 08:24:06 PM

Quote from: acceptance2 on July 30, 2014, 07:49:32 PM

1. The high number of coins is not irrelevant. It's one of the first things any real potential investor looks at.
2. By your very argument, the high interest rate has not in fact incentivised people, this is reflected in the current price of the coin.
3. What makes the coin more rare is having less of it, not more. That's the very definition of rare - less of.

Banks are giving less than 2.4% for 72 month CDs. If our POS rate was 10% - 12% you're saying that's not attractive enough to attract some investment money? I think it is more than adequate.

Lowering the number of coins would only influence the unit price per per coin, not the market cap. Market cap is where the real value is. The number of coins has no bearing on the market capitalization. If you somehow were to divide the total amount of coins in existence in half, the market cap would be the exact same.
The high interest rate IS incentivising people..Mintcoin has a high active minting participation rate over 63% currently, and growing. This is good for security.
You can't create value out of nothing. Value comes from many places...such as the mathematical value in the protocol itself, utility of the coin. etc.

Good point on market cap - 500 tons of gold is worth 500 tons of gold, no matter how thinly you slice it.

But if nobody wants it, it's effectively worthless.

coolbeans94

hero member

Activity: 613

Merit: 500

Mintcoin: Get some

Quote from: acceptance2 on July 30, 2014, 08:19:44 PM

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:59 PM

Are you serious? Huh

DO NOT CHANGE THE COIN!!!!

1. The high number of coins is irrelevant...More is actually better because it gives the the coin liquidity. 70,000,000,000 is good don't change it.
2. The current interest rate needs to be high somewhat high at first and is a good thing especially in the early years. POS is how the coin is secured, and so if the POS reward is not high enough, it will not incentivise people to hold their wallets open and do POS minting actively, so the security of the coin relies on this. Do not change this!
3. The coin cap is needed to make the coin rare, so keep it. Once the cap is reached only transaction fees will remain going to the POS minters, and if you are concerned about it becoming too expensive, the only change that we will ever have to do is lower the transaction fee form time to time.

Do not change the parameters! The parameters are what makes Mintcoin uniquely Mintcoin. Changing them would be making an entirely different coin.

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

But should we continue on the path we're on there will effectively be 70 Billion issued over time correct?

Well, according to presstab, Mintcoin is similar to Peercoin in that it will have no cap, but will have limited increase in the money supply with a minting reward of ~5% per year indefinitely...which given the current POS participation rate of ~63% would be an increase in the money supply of about 3.2% per year every year forever. What this means is if you continue to be an active long-term minter, you would gain 5% per year in new coins, while the total money supply increased by 3.2% per year, putting you ahead by 1.8% every year. (5%-3.2%)=1.8%

acceptance2

sr. member

Activity: 453

Merit: 250

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 08:24:06 PM

Quote from: acceptance2 on July 30, 2014, 07:49:32 PM

1. The high number of coins is not irrelevant. It's one of the first things any real potential investor looks at.
2. By your very argument, the high interest rate has not in fact incentivised people, this is reflected in the current price of the coin.
3. What makes the coin more rare is having less of it, not more. That's the very definition of rare - less of.

Banks are giving less than 2.4% for 72 month CDs. If our POS rate was 10% - 12% you're saying that's not attractive enough to attract some investment money? I think it is more than adequate.

Lowering the number of coins would only influence the unit price per per coin, not the market cap. Market cap is where the real value is. The number of coins has no bearing on the market capitalization. If you somehow were to divide the total amount of coins in existence in half, the market cap would be the exact same.
The high interest rate IS incentivising people..Mintcoin has a high active minting participation rate over 63% currently, and growing. This is good for security.
You can't create value out of nothing. Value comes from many places...such as the mathematical value in the protocol itself, utility of the coin. etc.

The number of coins has a very real effect on market cap when it prevents investors from coming on board. So by default, it has a very real indirect effect on market cap.

The unit price per coin can actually have a very real effect on market participants. Take Bitcoin for example. Once it hit the $100 level, the amount of participation among both media and participants increased dramatically. The majority of people would rather pay MORE for something than LESS. It's why early adopters always stand alone - the masses always come later. Price plays a very important psychological role - don't kid yourself.

DougB62

hero member

Activity: 672

Merit: 500

Banned: For Your Protection

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 08:24:06 PM

Quote from: acceptance2 on July 30, 2014, 07:49:32 PM

1. The high number of coins is not irrelevant. It's one of the first things any real potential investor looks at.
2. By your very argument, the high interest rate has not in fact incentivised people, this is reflected in the current price of the coin.
3. What makes the coin more rare is having less of it, not more. That's the very definition of rare - less of.

Banks are giving less than 2.4% for 72 month CDs. If our POS rate was 10% - 12% you're saying that's not attractive enough to attract some investment money? I think it is more than adequate.

Lowering the number of coins would only influence the unit price per per coin, not the market cap. Market cap is where the real value is. The number of coins has no bearing on the market capitalization. If you somehow were to divide the total amount of coins in existence in half, the market cap would be the exact same.
The high interest rate IS incentivising people..Mintcoin has a high active minting participation rate over 63% currently, and growing. This is good for security.
You can't create value out of nothing. Value comes from many places...such as the mathematical value in the protocol itself, utility of the coin. etc.

Good point on market cap - 500 tons of gold is worth 500 tons of gold, no matter how thinly you slice it.

mgburks77

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

I thought there wasn't going to be a hard fork, now you guys are talking about changes that require a hard fork

DougB62

hero member

Activity: 672

Merit: 500

Banned: For Your Protection

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:59 PM

Are you serious? Huh

DO NOT CHANGE THE COIN!!!!

1. The high number of coins is irrelevant...More is actually better because it gives the the coin liquidity. 70,000,000,000 is good don't change it.
2. The current interest rate needs to be high somewhat high at first and is a good thing especially in the early years. POS is how the coin is secured, and so if the POS reward is not high enough, it will not incentivise people to hold their wallets open and do POS minting actively, so the security of the coin relies on this. Do not change this!
3. The coin cap is needed to make the coin rare, so keep it. Once the cap is reached only transaction fees will remain going to the POS minters, and if you are concerned about it becoming too expensive, the only change that we will ever have to do is lower the transaction fee form time to time.

Do not change the parameters! The parameters are what makes Mintcoin uniquely Mintcoin. Changing them would be making an entirely different coin.

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

I get it... there is nothing in the code to halt staking after 70B coins have been produced - i.e., runaway inflation.

How hard would it be to implement this feature? (At whatever level should be chosen as a market cap - say 20B)

If it were implemented, wouldn't it defeat the final ~1.5% interest to replace "lost" supply?

Wouldn't halting any interest dissuade investment? I know it seems like a positive aspect to me, as long as it isn't hyper-inflationary.

Or am I completely missing your point?

coolbeans94

hero member

Activity: 613

Merit: 500

Mintcoin: Get some

Quote from: acceptance2 on July 30, 2014, 07:49:32 PM

1. The high number of coins is not irrelevant. It's one of the first things any real potential investor looks at.
2. By your very argument, the high interest rate has not in fact incentivised people, this is reflected in the current price of the coin.
3. What makes the coin more rare is having less of it, not more. That's the very definition of rare - less of.

Banks are giving less than 2.4% for 72 month CDs. If our POS rate was 10% - 12% you're saying that's not attractive enough to attract some investment money? I think it is more than adequate.

Lowering the number of coins would only influence the unit price per per coin, not the market cap. Market cap is where the real value is. The number of coins has no bearing on the market capitalization. If you somehow were to divide the total amount of coins in existence in half, the market cap would be the exact same.
The high interest rate IS incentivising people..Mintcoin has a high active minting participation rate over 63% currently, and growing. This is good for security.
You can't create value out of nothing. Value comes from many places...such as the mathematical value in the protocol itself, utility of the coin. etc.

acceptance2

sr. member

Activity: 453

Merit: 250

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:59 PM

Are you serious? Huh

DO NOT CHANGE THE COIN!!!!

1. The high number of coins is irrelevant...More is actually better because it gives the the coin liquidity. 70,000,000,000 is good don't change it.
2. The current interest rate needs to be high somewhat high at first and is a good thing especially in the early years. POS is how the coin is secured, and so if the POS reward is not high enough, it will not incentivise people to hold their wallets open and do POS minting actively, so the security of the coin relies on this. Do not change this!
3. The coin cap is needed to make the coin rare, so keep it. Once the cap is reached only transaction fees will remain going to the POS minters, and if you are concerned about it becoming too expensive, the only change that we will ever have to do is lower the transaction fee form time to time.

Do not change the parameters! The parameters are what makes Mintcoin uniquely Mintcoin. Changing them would be making an entirely different coin.

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

But should we continue on the path we're on there will effectively be 70 Billion issued over time correct?

presstab

legendary

Activity: 1330

Merit: 1000

Blockchain Developer

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 08:14:01 PM

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

So what will currently happen once 70b coins is reached? Just continue minting at 5% rate?

Yep.

coolbeans94

hero member

Activity: 613

Merit: 500

Mintcoin: Get some

Quote from: presstab on July 30, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

So what will currently happen once 70b coins is reached? Just continue minting at 5% rate?

presstab

legendary

Activity: 1330

Merit: 1000

Blockchain Developer

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:59 PM

Are you serious? Huh

DO NOT CHANGE THE COIN!!!!

1. The high number of coins is irrelevant...More is actually better because it gives the the coin liquidity. 70,000,000,000 is good don't change it.
2. The current interest rate needs to be high somewhat high at first and is a good thing especially in the early years. POS is how the coin is secured, and so if the POS reward is not high enough, it will not incentivise people to hold their wallets open and do POS minting actively, so the security of the coin relies on this. Do not change this!
3. The coin cap is needed to make the coin rare, so keep it. Once the cap is reached only transaction fees will remain going to the POS minters, and if you are concerned about it becoming too expensive, the only change that we will ever have to do is lower the transaction fee form time to time.

Do not change the parameters! The parameters are what makes Mintcoin uniquely Mintcoin. Changing them would be making an entirely different coin.

I am not quite sure how to get this across to the Mintcoin community... There is no 70b max coins limit in existence right now. Please read through the code.

acceptance2

sr. member

Activity: 453

Merit: 250

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:59 PM

Are you serious? Huh

DO NOT CHANGE THE COIN!!!!

1. The high number of coins is irrelevant...More is actually better because it gives the the coin liquidity. 70,000,000,000 is good don't change it.
2. The current interest rate needs to be high somewhat high at first and is a good thing especially in the early years. POS is how the coin is secured, and so if the POS reward is not high enough, it will not incentivise people to hold their wallets open and do POS minting actively, so the security of the coin relies on this. Do not change this!
3. The coin cap is needed to make the coin rare, so keep it. Once the cap is reached only transaction fees will remain going to the POS minters, and if you are concerned about it becoming too expensive, the only change that we will ever have to do is lower the transaction fee form time to time.

The only change that we should ever do, is lower the transaction fee from time to time (probably many years away from now).

P.S.
I have a lot staked in this coin and love everything about this coin. The type of changes some of you are talking about would destroy and deform Mintcoin so badly it would suck! I understand how POS works, I also know economics, et al. ( I have a finance degree, and work in the finance industry. I have experience, with economics and financial analysis work, I just want you to know that I know what I'm talking about. Mintcoin is very very good. Please don't change it! If you want it to grow more, then focus on developing it's usefulness, Android, Merchants, etc., not changing the parameters of the coin.)

Do not change the parameters! The parameters are what makes Mintcoin uniquely Mintcoin. Changing them would be making an entirely different coin.

1. The high number of coins is not irrelevant. It's one of the first things any real potential investor looks at.
2. By your very argument, the high interest rate has not in fact incentivised people, this is reflected in the current price of the coin.
3. What makes the coin more rare is having less of it, not more. That's the very definition of rare - less of.

Banks are giving less than 2.4% for 72 month CDs. If our POS rate was 10% - 12% you're saying that's not attractive enough to attract some investment money? I think it is more than adequate.

MarSas

hero member

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

19,523,102,829.84704208 coins generated. So we go straight to 1,5 %?

cryptomommy

sr. member

Activity: 425

Merit: 250

Quote from: TookDk on July 30, 2014, 06:06:36 PM

Quote from: cryptomommy on July 30, 2014, 05:47:05 PM

This is simply a discussion point - I have been working with several investors in different communities asking what would it take for them to invest in Mintcoin. This was a very BIG issue across everyone I asked; which is why I am bringing it back to the community for an open discussion. Please send the survey to as many mintcoin community members as you can as I am trying to get solid data point which I will openly share with the community and discuss next steps on the discussion (if any).

I can tell you so far out of 20 people only 4 agree with the current market cap for what it's worth.

It is good to have it discussed. And doing nothing can also kill the coin.

It also appears as though although people want to decrease the coin target from 70 Billion to 20 Billion they want to keep the current rewards system and add the 1.5% continual staking reward indefinitely after the target is reached to replace lost or destroyed coins along the way.

TookDk

legendary

Activity: 1960

Merit: 1062

One coin to rule them all

Quote from: cryptomommy on July 30, 2014, 05:47:05 PM

This is simply a discussion point - I have been working with several investors in different communities asking what would it take for them to invest in Mintcoin. This was a very BIG issue across everyone I asked; which is why I am bringing it back to the community for an open discussion. Please send the survey to as many mintcoin community members as you can as I am trying to get solid data point which I will openly share with the community and discuss next steps on the discussion (if any).

I can tell you so far out of 20 people only 4 agree with the current market cap for what it's worth.

It is good to have it discussed. And doing nothing can also kill the coin.

cryptomommy

sr. member

Activity: 425

Merit: 250

This is simply a discussion point - I have been working with several investors in different communities asking what would it take for them to invest in Mintcoin. This was a very BIG issue across everyone I asked; which is why I am bringing it back to the community for an open discussion. Please send the survey to as many mintcoin community members as you can as I am trying to get solid data point which I will openly share with the community and discuss next steps on the discussion (if any).

I can tell you so far out of 20 people only 4 agree with the current market cap for what it's worth.

TookDk

legendary

Activity: 1960

Merit: 1062

One coin to rule them all

I agree with coolbeans94 in pretty much everything he said.

The only real advantage of changing the parameters (slightly) is the advertising effect of changing the coin - so we can re-launch the coin and attract new people.

Quote from: coolbeans94 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:59 PM

Are you serious? Huh

DO NOT CHANGE THE COIN!!!!

1. The high number of coins is irrelevant...More is actually better because it gives the the coin liquidity. 70,000,000,000 is good don't change it.
2. The current interest rate needs to be high somewhat high at first and is a good thing especially in the early years. POS is how the coin is secured, and so if the POS reward is not high enough, it will not incentivise people to hold their wallets open and do POS minting actively, so the security of the coin relies on this. Do not change this!
3. The coin cap is needed to make the coin rare, so keep it. Once the cap is reached only transaction fees will remain going to the POS minters, and if you are concerned about it becoming too expensive, the only change that we will ever have to do is lower the transaction fee form time to time.

The only change that we should ever do, is lower the transaction fee from time to time (probably many years away from now).

P.S.
I have a lot staked in this coin and love everything about this coin. The type of changes some of you are talking about would destroy and deform Mintcoin so badly it would suck! I understand how POS works, I also know economics, et al. ( I have a finance degree, and work in the finance industry. I have experience, with economics and financial analysis work, I just want you to know that I know what I'm talking about. Mintcoin is very very good. Please don't change it! If you want it to grow more, then focus on developing it's usefulness, Android, Merchants, etc., not changing the parameters of the coin.)

Do not change the parameters! The parameters are what makes Mintcoin uniquely Mintcoin. Changing them would be making an entirely different coin.

Topic: [ANN] [MINT] Mintcoin (POS / 5%) [NO ICO] [Fair distro, community maintained] - page 232. (Read 1369778 times)