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Topic: [ANN] NeuCoin - Easy to use, free to try, focused on micropayments - Official - page 112. (Read 196221 times)

newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
[...]

As I said above, this is what keeps Neucoin decentralized.

[...]

Never ever use the word decentralized and Neucoin in the same sentence. They are direct opposites.

Excuse me? Care to refute any of my points?

well it's centrally planned, centrally premined, centrally issued and distributed, centrally pooled, centrally developed and advertised, centrally secured, etc.... but maybe that suits some people just fine.

Neucoin is nurturing the coin to maturity, rather than just releasing it and hoping it will survive on its own. This is necessary because of the current crowded environment of alt-coins.

The alt-coin ecosystem right now is like the old saying about a bunch of crabs in a bucket. As soon as one on top tries to escape, the crabs at the bottom pull it back down again.

If Neucoin was just released with no initial services (such as an online wallet and pool), no games fully integrated with it, no exchanges on board to trade it, it would be just like all the others and suffer the same fate.

So, initially centralized, yes, but as the Neucoin economy grows, less and less so.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
[...]

As I said above, this is what keeps Neucoin decentralized.

[...]

Never ever use the word decentralized and Neucoin in the same sentence. They are direct opposites.

Excuse me? Care to refute any of my points?

well it's centrally planned, centrally premined, centrally issued and distributed, centrally pooled, centrally developed and advertised, centrally secured, etc.... but maybe that suits some people just fine.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
First, lets be clear. Only the first year will users be making 100% interest. After that, it linearly reduces down to 6% after 10 years.
And I can tell you why: Because of the rich founders, the rich angel investors and the rich foundations.
Here is the real reason:
[....]

Wrong! Here ist the real alleged reason:

Rewards early NeuCoin investors

BTW: Presale buyers aren‘t early investors. Early investors paid much less than $0.01 per coin...
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
[...]

As I said above, this is what keeps Neucoin decentralized.

[...]

Never ever use the word decentralized and Neucoin in the same sentence. They are direct opposites.

Excuse me? Care to refute any of my points?

Excuse me as well? Care to share your definition of decentralized?
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
[...]

As I said above, this is what keeps Neucoin decentralized.

[...]

Never ever use the word decentralized and Neucoin in the same sentence. They are direct opposites.

Excuse me? Care to refute any of my points?
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
[...]

As I said above, this is what keeps Neucoin decentralized.

[...]

Never ever use the word decentralized and Neucoin in the same sentence. They are direct opposites.
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
First, lets be clear. Only the first year will users be making 100% interest. After that, it linearly reduces down to 6% after 10 years.

And I can tell you why: Because of the rich founders, the rich angel investors and the rich foundations.


Here is the real reason:

From page 20 of the Neucoin whitepaper:

One severe weakness of Peercoin is that it suffers from extremely low mining participation,
with typically less than 10% of the currency supply staked at any one time. This means that
an attack requiring control of 51% of the staked coins only requires control of 5.1% of the
total currency supply. There are several factors that contribute to the low mining rates in
Peercoin, but the principal one is miniscule rewards for mining: just a 1% annual return. The
small amount of mining that does take place in Peercoin is most likely driven more by selfless
efforts to support the currency than by the financial rewards of mining.
In contrast, NeuCoin provides very high compensation to miners, especially during the
early years following its launch. Specifically, NeuCoin’s coinstake rewards begin at a 100%
annual rate and decline in a linear fashion over ten years after which they reach a 6% annual
rate, where they remain indefinitely. These high reward rates will incentivize a large number of
miners to stake a large number of coins. In addition, these high reward rates create incentives
for cloud mining operators to provide services to NeuCoin holders not interested in mining
themselves, where both the mining operator and the NeuCoin holder can receive substantial
rewards.

Oh I forgot, everything that the Neucoin says is all lies, right? So you might as well just say "Neucoin is the devil incarnate" and leave it at that.



Second, simple algebra shows that regardless of the reward percentage, as long as users are mining, the Rich maintain the same, "purchasing power" as you called it, vs the poor. Let A be user A, B be user B, and p equal to the percentage earned. Then  A*(1+p)/ (B*(1+p)) = A/B.

Wrong! This formula ignores compounded interest! As shown in https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11775144 and as described in the whitepaper: Larger shareholders ""receive payments more frequently".

Let m be the number of Blocks solved by rich user A within a certain time frame and n the number of blocks solved by poor user B within the same timeftame. Then

A*(1+((p/m)/100%)^m)            the rich user’s share increases
while                                                                                                                       The rich get richer while the poor get poorer.
B*(1+((p/n)/100%)^n)             the poor user’s share decreases

The only way a poor user (or even a rich user who doesn't mint 24/7) can counteract this inequality is to send his coins to a pool. This will make him dependent on a third party which is the direct opposite of „decentralized“.


Did I ever say a "poor user" shouldn't use a pool? This is how the conversation started! I told you that decentralization comes in when users have around $1000 or so, and at that point the security risk of having someone else hold your coins outweighs the benefits of the additional compound interest. So, the decentralization works when users that have around $1K or so weigh the risks and make the decision to solo-mine.

So, if a "poor user" uses a pool then m=n, and therefore it *still* reduces to A/B.


It looks like this is the case (you need to DEPOSIT nokoins to use the pool),
but isn't that dumb?  What other coin requires you to
put your funds into a pool to use that pool?

Yes that's dumb.

As I said above, this is what keeps Neucoin decentralized. Replying with "it's dumb" is not a counterargument.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
As far as what we've been told, the foundation coins will not initially sell coins upon launch. I see no reason to waste their time to reconfirm it for you.

You'd have to ask the peercoiner that said that Sunny was looking into making the change. I'm not a techni.

where have we been told foundation koin will not initially sell koin upon launch? (and for the first month)

ok I guess it was the innovation, Dart and LOrrav just can't remember.


I'm sorry, but this is just pathetic.

It's like saying: "We believe Dan and the neucoin team when they say there's innovations.  
What those innovations are, we can't say and don't remember.  Maybe you can ask
on the peercoin forum."

WTF?

hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
First, lets be clear. Only the first year will users be making 100% interest. After that, it linearly reduces down to 6% after 10 years.

And I can tell you why: Because of the rich founders, the rich angel investors and the rich foundations.


Second, simple algebra shows that regardless of the reward percentage, as long as users are mining, the Rich maintain the same, "purchasing power" as you called it, vs the poor. Let A be user A, B be user B, and p equal to the percentage earned. Then  A*(1+p)/ (B*(1+p)) = A/B.

Wrong! This formula ignores compounded interest! As shown in https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11775144 and as described in the whitepaper: Larger shareholders ""receive payments more frequently".

Let m be the number of Blocks solved by rich user A within a certain time frame and n the number of blocks solved by poor user B within the same timeftame. Then

A*(1+((p/m)/100%)^m)            the rich user’s share increases
while                                                                                                                       The rich get richer while the poor get poorer.
B*(1+((p/n)/100%)^n)             the poor user’s share decreases

The only way a poor user (or even a rich user who doesn't mint 24/7) can counteract this inequality is to send his coins to a pool. This will make him dependent on a third party which is the direct opposite of „decentralized“.


It looks like this is the case (you need to DEPOSIT nokoins to use the pool),
but isn't that dumb?  What other coin requires you to
put your funds into a pool to use that pool?

Yes that's dumb.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
As far as what we've been told, the foundation coins will not initially sell coins upon launch. I see no reason to waste their time to reconfirm it for you.

You'd have to ask the peercoiner that said that Sunny was looking into making the change. I'm not a techni.

where have we been told foundation koin will not initially sell koin upon launch? (and for the first month)

ok I guess it was the innovation, Dart and LOrrav just can't remember.

Its update day!

edit- to save you time Dart,
http://forum.neucoin.org/t/currency-exchange-rate/72/5
post 5 Sandrine says
"Thus at launch, the only coins that will be available to trade on exchanges (the ”available supply”) are the 100M coins that will have been sold in the presale. At a price of $0.01 per coin, Coinmarketcap.com will list NeuCoin's market cap at $1M ($.01 * 100M "available" supply), not $30M."

It does not say foundation koin will not be sold 5 min after launch,
It simply explains the launch mcap
Also sale restricted koin. start, middle, end of month? Nothing specific.
Typical nokoin vagueness.

newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
As far as what we've been told, the foundation coins will not initially sell coins upon launch. I see no reason to waste their time to reconfirm it for you.

You'd have to ask the peercoiner that said that Sunny was looking into making the change. I'm not a techni.

The coin will start off at 100% and decrease the entire year down to 80% by the end of year one.Month 2's interest will be 98% and month 3's will be about 96.

The returns and lock up period have not been announced, I imagine it would depend on the systems holdings and how often it mines, such information isn't yet available.


Mining will start when the coin launches. Sometime before September 30 this year
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
When will the Mining start?

Thanks!
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
I don't believe Neucoin will have the centralization problems that Bitcoin has.

Neither do I. It’s worse already. http://i.imgur.com/jvo1jBw.jpg


As I've said before, in order for Neucoin to follow their strategic plan, they need these coins to distribute to others in compensation for helping to strengthen it. The presale is just a small part of this. If they sold a large amount during the presale, then users would mostly consist of people who just sit on their hands and pray the price goes up (like with most other coins).  


Unless I'm mistaken, in a PoS coin, like Neucoin, you have to transfer your balance to the pool in order for it to mine for you.

And that is a problem. Centralized hot wallets are a real gold mine for hackers. That’s why exchanges usually keep most of their customer's coins in cold storage. But this isn’t possible for a PoS minting Pool, because PoS coins must always stay online in order to mint. Furthermore, if huge amounts of PoS coins get stolen, it will not only harm the people who got stolen. It will potentially also harm the security of the whole network. Ever heard about the Vericoin/MintPal hack? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/

Legitimate crypto communities always invoice people to not hold their coins in centralized hot wallets (and exchanges as well of course). But NoKoin’s hyperinflation even encourages people to permanently do so. NoKoin retards even believe it‘s „absolutely necessary for mainstream adoption“. Once people lose their coins they might even leave cryto as a whole telling others about all the scams and how risky crypto is . This is rather going to hurt mainstream adoption than to help it.


Yes, that is the drawback. Hopefully it will help with the dismal security practises currently used in the industry.  But preventing centralization is an important goal.

For someone with $100, this isn't such a big deal, but someone with $10K would have to worry about the security implications of doing this. So, the little guy trades security for earning a lot of extra compounded interest by joining the pool.  However, the whales, and I use that term loosely, holding more than around $1K, would rationally keep their coins under their own control, since they can earn almost the maximum compounded interest by themselves and the risk of losing their coins in someone else's hands isn't worth it.

So, then, the number of holders of $1K or more independently mining will keep centralization from happening.

I disagree. First up, $100 might not be „such a big deal“ for you. But it certainly is a big deal for others.


Yea, well, the world is an imperfect place. There is a trade-off with everything. If they didn't incentivize solo mining, then centralization would be an issue.


Second point is, there is only „extra compounded interest“ for people who receive a higher compunded interest rate than the overall inflation rate. In order to achieve this using solo-minting, you must not only have enough coins. Even more importantly you must mint A LOT. Let’s take the number from NoKoin example: 80% of all coins are minting all the time (on the basis of the shareholder structure it will probably even be more in the beginning). This means even someone holding coins worth of $10,000 or $100,000 has to mint around 19 hours every day just to obtain purchasing power. If he’s too comfortable doing that, he will probably join the minting pool. Pool or depreciation.


I'm guessing you meant "maintain" rather than "obtain", and "not too comfortable" rather than "too comfortable". Maintaining purchase power (aka. making a profit), depends also on the growth of the economy using the coin, and that won't grow unless people are keeping it secure. Heck, Bitcoiner's currently suffer from around 10% inflation per year, and can do nothing about this (Bitcoins can't be staked) and they don't seem to concerned about it.

And the fact that a miner has to choose between a pool, depreciation, or single-mining, and the system is designed so his rational choice aligns with keeping the market decentralized and secure is actually a really good design decision.


A legitimate PoS coin would never utilize a 100% reward per year. PoS generally suffers from „the rich get richer“ bias: https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/421635550911934465

Peercoiners call it a „myth“ which I believe is credible since the reward is only 1% per year, also because of the minimum coin age (one transaction can mint 12 times a year at the most) and due to predictability. Compounded interest rate differences in Peercoin are almost nothing. Blackcoin has a much lower minimum coin age and no predictability in the fairly long term (such as NoKoin) but only a 2% anually reward, still somewhat negligible.

NoKoin 100% reward is deeply unfair and was probably just chosen to get angle investors on board of this scam train.
First, lets be clear. Only the first year will users be making 100% interest. After that, it linearly reduces down to 6% after 10 years.

Second, simple algebra shows that regardless of the reward percentage, as long as users are mining, the Rich maintain the same, "purchasing power" as you called it, vs the poor. Let A be user A, B be user B, and p equal to the percentage earned. Then  A*(1+p)/ (B*(1+p)) = A/B.

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
unanswered questions, Dart/LOrrav

Was the floating stake modifier the innovation LOrrev/Dart?
Will foundations sell koin from day 1 Dart?
What are likely returns and lock up period on growth account?
                    -------------------------------------------
nokoin, transparent, easy to use?

Kahir, Mar 22nd
"as it say on their forum ... the launch should be in March ... so it gotta be in the next week i guess"
Kahir, Apr 12th
"any news"
Kahir, Jun 30th
"when is launch / listing on exchange"
Rizz, Jul 1st
"Torrgeek, Kahir posted to ask when is launch / listing on exchange"
Rizz, Jul1st
"Kahir still waiting for reply"

No reply,
BS marketing experts.
                     -------------------------------------------
I thought LOrrav joined nokoin forum to find out some answers, i.e. ask some questions,or do some reading. NOT SO.
Its been over a week now, no questions, no reading to speak of.
Compare LOrrav's first week with Gekko's (note the reading/research)

              likes           likes       topics      replies     (threads)       read       visits        time              
              received    given      (started)                  entered                                         read

LOrrav        0                 1              0              0              3                18            4            4m

Gekko        1                 19            0              1 *            89              1.6k         11          12h               *  1 reply left out of 12 or so, others deleted,

So why wont LOrrav ask any questions on nokoin forum, what is he scared of? (questions equal ban?)

BTW it's Bi-weekly update day tomorrow!
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
s.c:  thanks for clarifying about peercoin.

It looks like this is the case (you need to DEPOSIT nokoins to use the pool),
but isn't that dumb?  What other coin requires you to
put your funds into a pool to use that pool?
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
Nxt uses leased forging so you don't have to give up your currency, and i thought peercoin's issuance is based on PoW so you don't send your coins to the pool there either.

NoKoiners mess up with the word "mining". Sometimes they distinguish between PoW mining and PoS mining. Sometimes they even call "mining" "minting":

If that is true, then this just another face palm for nokoin.

Well, how do you understand the following?

Quote from: Sandrine
MyNeuCoin.com
Reminder: MyNeuCoin is an online wallet where you can store, send and receive your NeuCoins. A lot of effort has been put into making sure that it’s as consumer-friendly and easy-to-use as the leading Bitcoin wallets Circle and Coinbase. This is a major project and we believe it will be a huge differentiator from other altcoins, and absolutely necessary for mainstream adoption.

Here are MyNeuCoin features:
- MyNeuCoin is a Blockchain.info type of wallet with regards to the management of private keys. They are never accessible by the online wallet, only by the wallet users (as opposed to Coinbase for example), which is very important from a security, anonymity and regulatory perspective.
- A user interface adapted to non-crypto people.
- A consumer facing Proof-of-stake cloud mining service called “growth accounts”, where users can leave a deposit for a fixed term and seamlessly earn proof-of-stake mining rewards (without even needing know what “mining” or even “cryptocurrencies” mean).

Current focus:
- UX/UI and design: testing and adjustments
- Finalizing scope and parameters of referral programs
- Special focus on the UX of the growth accounts
http://forum.neucoin.org/t/pre-launch-updates/1268
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

In Neucoin, you'd have to send your coins to the pool. How else are they going to mine with them? I know that in Bitcoin it doesn't work that way.


If that is true, then this just another face palm for nokoin.

Nxt uses leased forging so you don't have to give up your currency, and i thought peercoin's issuance is based on PoW so you don't send your coins to the pool there either. not 100% sure on that , but I do think having to send your currency to a pool is a fail.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
I don't believe Neucoin will have the centralization problems that Bitcoin has.

Neither do I. It’s worse already. http://i.imgur.com/jvo1jBw.jpg


Unless I'm mistaken, in a PoS coin, like Neucoin, you have to transfer your balance to the pool in order for it to mine for you.

And that is a problem. Centralized hot wallets are a real gold mine for hackers. That’s why exchanges usually keep most of their customer's coins in cold storage. But this isn’t possible for a PoS minting Pool, because PoS coins must always stay online in order to mint. Furthermore, if huge amounts of PoS coins get stolen, it will not only harm the people who got stolen. It will potentially also harm the security of the whole network. Ever heard about the Vericoin/MintPal hack? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/

Legitimate crypto communities always invoice people to not hold their coins in centralized hot wallets (and exchanges as well of course). But NoKoin’s hyperinflation even encourages people to permanently do so. NoKoin retards even believe it‘s „absolutely necessary for mainstream adoption“. Once people lose their coins they might even leave cryto as a whole telling others about all the scams and how risky crypto is . This is rather going to hurt mainstream adoption than to help it.


For someone with $100, this isn't such a big deal, but someone with $10K would have to worry about the security implications of doing this. So, the little guy trades security for earning a lot of extra compounded interest by joining the pool.  However, the whales, and I use that term loosely, holding more than around $1K, would rationally keep their coins under their own control, since they can earn almost the maximum compounded interest by themselves and the risk of losing their coins in someone else's hands isn't worth it.

So, then, the number of holders of $1K or more independently mining will keep centralization from happening.

I disagree. First up, $100 might not be „such a big deal“ for you. But it certainly is a big deal for others.

Second point is, there is only „extra compounded interest“ for people who receive a higher compunded interest rate than the overall inflation rate. In order to achieve this using solo-minting, you must not only have enough coins. Even more importantly you must mint A LOT. Let’s take the number from NoKoin example: 80% of all coins are minting all the time (on the basis of the shareholder structure it will probably even be more in the beginning). This means even someone holding coins worth of $10,000 or $100,000 has to mint around 19 hours every day just to obtain purchasing power. If he’s too comfortable doing that, he will probably join the minting pool. Pool or depreciation.

A legitimate PoS coin would never utilize a 100% reward per year. PoS generally suffers from „the rich get richer“ bias: https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/421635550911934465

Peercoiners call it a „myth“ which I believe is credible since the reward is only 1% per year, also because of the minimum coin age (one transaction can mint 12 times a year at the most) and due to predictability. Compounded interest rate differences in Peercoin are almost nothing. Blackcoin has a much lower minimum coin age and no predictability in the fairly long term (such as NoKoin) but only a 2% anually reward, still somewhat negligible.

NoKoin 100% reward is deeply unfair and was probably just chosen to get angle investors on board of this scam train.
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
confusion abounds.

lorrav, you're confused/misinformed on almost every point here.

Pool participants never send their funds to pools and  Bitcoin pools are less centralized than they were a year ago.  

Coinage as used by peercoin is a broken idea because if you're trying to attack the network by broadcasting your own chain and your chain isn't accepted, the next time you try, you'll have even more chances to succeed because now your coins got older.  Plus it makes long range attacks easier. As far as I know, neucoin isn't going to go that route.  

In Neucoin, you'd have to send your coins to the pool. How else are they going to mine with them? I know that in Bitcoin it doesn't work that way.

You didn't really refute any of my points, here.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
confusion abounds.

lorrav, you're confused/misinformed on almost every point here.

Pool participants never send their funds to pools and  Bitcoin pools are less centralized than they were a year ago.  

Coinage as used by peercoin is a broken idea because if you're trying to attack the network by broadcasting your own chain and your chain isn't accepted, the next time you try, you'll have even more chances to succeed because now your coins got older.  Plus it makes long range attacks easier. As far as I know, neucoin isn't going to go that route.  
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