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Topic: [ANN] NeuCoin - Easy to use, free to try, focused on micropayments - Official - page 113. (Read 196191 times)

newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
The WP says,
"in abandoning time-weight, NeuCoin chose the benefit of higher security at a cost
of creating small advantages for large miners over smaller miners,"

How does this compounding effect play out, over say 5yrs

Compound interest is the rich NoKoiner's best friend, and the poor NoKoiner's worst enemy. But you don't have to take my word for it:

"Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it … he who doesn’t … pays it." [Albert Einstein]


As the whale gets proportionally richer than the minnow, does that in itself make it even harder for said minnow to stake?

Yes.


The $100 guy can always join a mining pool, which would even out his percentage a lot

... which will result in some of the same issues that Bitcoin PoW mining has:

Quote from: NoKoin Strategic Plan
A second, widely recognized drawback of PoW mining is its tendency to become centralized. In Bitcoin’s early years, when Bitcoins had little value, mining was highly decentralized among tens of thousands of individuals using consumer-grade computers - and this true peer-to-peer nature was considered one of Bitcoin’s core benefits. Today, this is changing.

First came mining pools, in which large numbers of miners combine resources and share mining awards in order to receive frequent, predictable payments rather than waiting and hoping for a single large award. The largest pools have already breached the point of having a majority of the network’s computing power, where they would have the capability of seriously harming the network. Second, hobbyist and small-scale miners have been getting knocked out of business, pool or no pool.
...
Centralization of PoW mining is problematic for several reasons. First, centralization of mining power represents a severe security risk. Any entity (or entities working together) that controls 51% or more of the network’s computing power can seriously harm the network. Second, when there are only a few, highly-capitalized entities that control the network, the entire network becomes susceptible to government control and regulation of these few entities.

NoKoin is the combination of PoW disadvantages and PoS disadvantages.

I don't believe Neucoin will have the centralization problems that Bitcoin has. Unless I'm mistaken, in a PoS coin, like Neucoin, you have to transfer your balance to the pool in order for it to mine for you. For someone with $100, this isn't such a big deal, but someone with $10K would have to worry about the security implications of doing this. It would be akin to leaving your balance "on the exchange", which many people have been burned by.

So, the little guy trades security for earning a lot of extra compounded interest by joining the pool.  However, the whales, and I use that term loosely, holding more than around $1K, would rationally keep their coins under their own control, since they can earn almost the maximum compounded interest by themselves and the risk of losing their coins in someone else's hands isn't worth it.

So, then, the number of holders of $1K or more independently mining will keep centralization from happening.

Compare this against the huge centralization flaw that bitcoin has right now, where only 3 miners are necessary to collude to run a 51% attack! (From here you can see that it would only take 3 of the biggest miners to collude to reach 51%: https://blockchain.info/pools). Due to economies of scale, this can and will eventually occur with any PoW coin that currently exists, and is the reason the future of PoW is not too bright right now.

---

BTW, what is the problem with coinage the way Neucoin implements it? I have no idea why it is, according to jonald, "broken".
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
BTC > etc
funny quotes from this kid:

Quote
stop doubting the NeuCoin team - it isn't a scam - if it was, the whole thing would be down by now cos the feds would somehow get involved

Quote
That's why I don't have 0.1 BTC to invest - I have recently put a relatively large deposit (0.01 BTC) in to the faucet

and this kid is a nokoin forum moderator  Huh
this shitcoin turns into a bigger joke by the day
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Economics lessons from 13 year olds (who had their lunch money stolen by DanK):

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/break-down-of-greece-banking-system-and-co-relations-to-neucoin/1290

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/the-neucoin-presale-is-over-thank-you/870/8

Ahhhh @gekko4631 - that's where you're wrong - I may be a minor, but I've done my research.

I found scraps of it on the web from trustworthy sites, and the rest of it I learned whilst studying Business, Business Economics and Law in school.

Finally @gekko4631, the investments that people make on this site are not "dodgy", but if you think that, you shouldn't be on these forums - they were made for people who own, care about, and want to help NeuCoin GROW AND EVOLVE. I get the impression that you are not here to do that, but rather to put people off NeuCoin, and I would appreciate it if you kept thoughts about the fact that you think NeuCoin is a scam to yourself. Thank you.

From BTC2YouDank4Free


funny quotes from this kid:


Stop desperately hoping that you can be an early adopter in a massively rising successful altcoin, it isn't going to happen.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
Economics lessons from 13 year olds (who had their lunch money stolen by DanK):

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/break-down-of-greece-banking-system-and-co-relations-to-neucoin/1290

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/the-neucoin-presale-is-over-thank-you/870/8

Ahhhh @gekko4631 - that's where you're wrong - I may be a minor, but I've done my research.

I found scraps of it on the web from trustworthy sites, and the rest of it I learned whilst studying Business, Business Economics and Law in school.

Finally @gekko4631, the investments that people make on this site are not "dodgy", but if you think that, you shouldn't be on these forums - they were made for people who own, care about, and want to help NeuCoin GROW AND EVOLVE. I get the impression that you are not here to do that, but rather to put people off NeuCoin, and I would appreciate it if you kept thoughts about the fact that you think NeuCoin is a scam to yourself. Thank you.

From BTC2YouDank4Free
hero member
Activity: 545
Merit: 500
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
The WP says,
"in abandoning time-weight, NeuCoin chose the benefit of higher security at a cost
of creating small advantages for large miners over smaller miners,"

How does this compounding effect play out, over say 5yrs

Compound interest is the rich NoKoiner's best friend, and the poor NoKoiner's worst enemy. But you don't have to take my word for it:

"Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it … he who doesn’t … pays it." [Albert Einstein]


As the whale gets proportionally richer than the minnow, does that in itself make it even harder for said minnow to stake?

Yes.


The $100 guy can always join a mining pool, which would even out his percentage a lot

... which will result in some of the same issues that Bitcoin PoW mining has:

Quote from: NoKoin Strategic Plan
A second, widely recognized drawback of PoW mining is its tendency to become centralized. In Bitcoin’s early years, when Bitcoins had little value, mining was highly decentralized among tens of thousands of individuals using consumer-grade computers - and this true peer-to-peer nature was considered one of Bitcoin’s core benefits. Today, this is changing.

First came mining pools, in which large numbers of miners combine resources and share mining awards in order to receive frequent, predictable payments rather than waiting and hoping for a single large award. The largest pools have already breached the point of having a majority of the network’s computing power, where they would have the capability of seriously harming the network. Second, hobbyist and small-scale miners have been getting knocked out of business, pool or no pool.
...
Centralization of PoW mining is problematic for several reasons. First, centralization of mining power represents a severe security risk. Any entity (or entities working together) that controls 51% or more of the network’s computing power can seriously harm the network. Second, when there are only a few, highly-capitalized entities that control the network, the entire network becomes susceptible to government control and regulation of these few entities.

NoKoin is the combination of PoW disadvantages and PoS disadvantages.
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please, Smiley

Initial capital                                 Final capital (after 1 year)                                       Effective annual interest rate
100 $                                              196.86                                                                        109.36 %
1,000 $                                           2321.41                                                                      144.65 %
10,000 $                                         23723.42                                                                    149.74 %
100,000 $                                       237766.63                                                                  150.28 %
1,000,000 $                                    2378201.11                                                                150.33 %
The $100 guy can always join a mining pool, which would even out his percentage a lot
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
Is that because ONE million into HALF million doesn't go? Huh

It's because a limited number of blocks would be spread over a vast number of users.

hey scam,
You just answered me with 16 words when, I think, 1 would have done?- YES  Shocked
(I expected 1! Have you been reading too much nokoin jargon lately?)

Thanks for the figures, they're about the best we got.

The WP says,
"in abandoning time-weight, NeuCoin chose the benefit of higher security at a cost
of creating small advantages for large miners over smaller miners,"

How does this compounding effect play out, over say 5yrs
As the whale gets proportionally richer than the minnow, does that in itself make it even harder for said minnow to stake?
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
Is that because ONE million into HALF million doesn't go? Huh

It's because a limited number of blocks would be spread over a vast number of users.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
also if there were 1m nokoin users, with 500k blocks per/yr, would that make it harder for minnows to stake?

Yes.

Is that because ONE million into HALF million doesn't go? Huh
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
also if there were 1m nokoin users, with 500k blocks per/yr, would that make it harder for minnows to stake?

Yes.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please, Smiley

Initial capital                                 Final capital (after 1 year)                                       Effective annual interest rate
100 $                                              196.86                                                                        109.36 %
1,000 $                                           2321.41                                                                      144.65 %
10,000 $                                         23723.42                                                                    149.74 %
100,000 $                                       237766.63                                                                  150.28 %
1,000,000 $                                    2378201.11                                                                150.33 %

So the minnows will get 30% less than the whale!

also if there were 1m nokoin users, with 500k blocks per/yr, would that make it harder for minnows to stake?

(edited for clarity)
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please, Smiley

Initial capital                                 Final capital (after 1 year)                                       Effective annual interest rate
100 $                                              196.86                                                                        109.36 %
1,000 $                                           2321.41                                                                      144.65 %
10,000 $                                         23723.42                                                                    149.74 %
100,000 $                                       237766.63                                                                  150.28 %
1,000,000 $                                    2378201.11                                                                150.33 %
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please, Smiley

Jonald
I thought they might actually be hoping to create nokoin off the back of intelligent responses!

I got bored waiting for replies so, (edit- to such things as WAS THAT THE INNOVATION, Dart?, LOrrev?)

No info/answers forthcoming from nokoin/nokoiners, nothing new there then,
BUT, a great new feature in the nokoin forum user lists!
(discorse have been tinkering lately)

A new column (all time list only) is "Time Read".
http://forum.neucoin.org/users?period=all
It helps to identify a different breed of ZOMBIE users!
(anyone want's to see this, click on "visits", then click again to start from the least)

Different from my previous ZOMBIE lists because these newly identifiable zombies are "SHILL ZOMBIES"
They have been active for MINUTES (rather than never, such as eviltrout)

I have suspected for a while that some "users" were just SHILL ZOMBIES
What would motivate someone to register, maybe placing a personal avatar, only to "read" for 5 minutes or less, then never return, multiplied by hundreds of "users"?
You needn't join the forum to brouse through. There has always been a continual flow of these shills.

Some figures from the all time user list-
825 all time "users" (including banned)
125 read >1 minute
58   read 1 minute
147 read <1minute, >5 minute

so 330 read >5 minute (nearly 40%)
also 297 "users" visited 1 time (or less) never to return. That is over 30% of "users"

BTW, even now, after 2 months ban and only a week on nokoin forum, only 29 "users" are listed with more "time read" than Gekko!.  NomadBR joint5th, gerkin joint 2nd!, but they were "allowed" to stay a little longer than Gekko.
gerkin is still 13th on all time "likes received" list, NomadBR 17th, so no change there in 6 weeks, even though the mods are now liking every post going! The problem is the handful of people left were already above gerkin & NomadBR, no new "real" users are coming through, as I said weeks ago. ("lost" somewhere in these 30 pages)

This is why NomadBR is also still 13th on the "likes given" list, gerkin 19th

THE NOKOIN FORUM IS DEAD

(re-edit- this could be funny, http://forum.neucoin.org/t/any-feedback-from-friends-and-family-who-are-die-hard-alt-coin-lovers/1298)
and again- The 29 "users with more time read than Gekko include mods/team, about 10-12 people!
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

The following is dishonest:

Quote from: NoKoin website
The NeuCoin whitepaper addresses all the cryptocommunity's 'nothing at stake' objections to proof-of-stake and demonstrates mathematically how NeuCoin's design - with improved security over previous proof-of-stake implementations - foils all attack vectors.



Agree.  And it is and was one of the main things on their homepage used
to convince people to invest.  Even more deceptive is the fact that
they asked for feedback and offered bounties on feedback (which
by the way are only redeemable in neucoin and haven't actually been paid).
This gives the impression the paper is being heavily scrutinized or is
peer reviewed.  

There has been no peer review other from a handle of forum people
such as myself and Ray Dillinger, who also didn't seem impressed,
and we heard second hand that Sunny King looked at the paper
and said it was "about 80% accurate" but there is no one credible
who is confirming neucoin's wild claims.

hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
Did the math:

Assumptions: 100 % of all NoKoiners are staking (actually it will be less)
Reward: 100 % per year
3,000,000,000 premined NoKoins
Block time: 1 minute --> 525,960 blocks per year --> 600,000 blocks in 416.47 days
Presale price: 0.01 $ (actually angle investors paid less, founders paid nothing)
Price will not change over time (actually it will decrease of course)

Person A invested 100 $ in the presale and received 10,000 NoKoins
Person B invested 1000 $ in the presale and received 100,000 NoKoins

Person A has a 0.00033333 % share in the premine. Person A will stake at an average of 1.7532 times a year. In other words: Person A will stake at an average of 2 times in 416.47 days.

Person B has a 0.0033333 % share in the premine. Person B will stake at an average of 17.532 times a year. In other words: Person B will stake at an average of 20 times in 416.47 days.

After 416.47 days, Person A has a total of 100 $ * (1 + 100 % / 2 / 100 %)^2 = 225.00 $, rendering an effective annual interest rate of 109.36 %.

After 416.47 days, Person B has a total of 1000 $ * (1 + 100 % / 20 / 100 %)^20 = 2563.30 $, rendering an effective annual interest rate of 144.65 %.

The larger 1000 $ holder has a 32 % higher effective annual interest rate than the smaller 100 $ holder.
Small holders do not stake 24/7, which will result in an even larger difference or they have to pay a fee for 24/7 staking in the "growth account".
If small 100 $ holders stake less than 6 hours per day, they will most probably do not even stake at all in 416.47 days.
1000 $ is still very very very poor in relation to angle investor's and founder's investment.


TL;DR: NoKoin - The rich get richer and the poor get poorer!
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
So the small holder is still contributing to security, albeit less than continuously contributing.
So 12 small holders doing this will contribute as much to security as foundations running 1 node?
(even though foundations hold 10000x more coin of those 12 small holders?)
Is this correct?

No one other than the central foundations banks are significantly contributing to security! But actually they do not contribute: They dictate!

The only infuence ordinary NoKoiners have is to partially obtain purchasing power.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
coin age is a broken idea too.

I don't deny it. Sunny King is well aware of it's problems:

Quote from: Peercoin whitepaper
"One  of  the  disadvantages  of  using  total  consumed  coin  age  to determine  main  chain  is that it lowers the cost of attack on the entire block chain of history." ... "Another  concern  is  that  the  cost  of  double-spending  attack  may  have  been  lowered  as well,  as  attacker  may  just  need  to  accumulate  certain amount  of  coin  age  and  force reorganization of the block chain. To make commerce practical under such a system, we decided to  introduce an additional  form of checkpoints that are broadcasted centrally, at much  shorter  intervals  such  as  a  few  times  daily,  to serve  to  freeze  block  chain  and finalize transactions." ... "Although  the  broadcasted  checkpointing  mechanism  is  a form of centralization, we consider it acceptable before a distributed solution is available."


Blackcoin doesn't have a solution but a different approach (changing stake modifier) which might improve security:

Quote from: Blackcoin whitepaper
The proposed changes are intended to improve security in BlackCoin’s  PoS  protocol  and  were  made  with  optimization in  mind.  With  the  new  protocol  possible  attack  vectors  are reduced to a minimum and the incentive to support the network by having a full node running continuously is clearly increased.


The following is dishonest:

Quote from: NoKoin website
The NeuCoin whitepaper addresses all the cryptocommunity's 'nothing at stake' objections to proof-of-stake and demonstrates mathematically how NeuCoin's design - with improved security over previous proof-of-stake implementations - foils all attack vectors.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

Compound interest is necessary in order to prevent miners from staying offline most of the time:

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/51

Agreed. But 100% isn't necessary. It's an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!

Disagree. We REALLY need Kourosh to explain the different reward rates more clearly (for large and small holders) and the outcome of this.
(I agree with the theory, not the practice)
Consider a small holder (30,000nokoin) wanting to stake once a year, instead of running his node 24/7.
Firstly he will have to not move/use his coin in that time period to keep his days idle, then he will attempt to stake?
Now he will have to keep trying for an unknown time also?

He will not be able to just turn on his laptop and mint the next block?
If he would mint on average once a month, then it will still, on average, take a month?
If he is lucky it will be sooner, if unlucky longer.

So the small holder is still contributing to security, albeit less than continuously contributing.
So 12 small holders doing this will contribute as much to security as foundations running 1 node?
(even though foundations hold 10000x more coin of those 12 small holders?)
Is this correct?

We also need an idea of the "growth account" costs and lock up period.
James thinks it will be free, baby mod hopes it will cost less than the reward!

BTW, still no answer if stake modifier was the innovation?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

coin age is a broken idea too.
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