Topic: [ANN] NeuCoin - Easy to use, free to try, focused on micropayments - Official - page 114. (Read 196191 times)

Agreed. But 100% isn't necessary. It's an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!

Compound interest is necessary in order to prevent miners from staying offline most of the time:

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/51

Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

ok, so you don't know for sure, so you imagine. (not really what I asked)
Wont the team communicate? (we know they wont)
So is there any point in asking? (anything)

BTW, was the stake modifier the innovation you were trying to remember? (or can't you remember)
Kahir still waiting for reply.

Did the foundations already determine the final price they will dictate the market?

Since the price will be predetermined by the foundations for several years they wont run into prize level problems. But what about missing volume: Imagine almost no third party demand for neucoin. The foundations would probably create some to pump it, but what if this was not enough? What if they won't be able to sell enough (= convert to real value) to cover next year expenses? How will the resulting downward spiral be broken?

Who tracks the bonuses the almighty foundations give away? All centrally planned economies open the floodgates to corruption and favoritism.
How is it handled?

I would imagine that after the first month the foundation will sell off some into spikes but the at launch we want day traders to jump in and give it some volume and have it get a bit of press and I think if the foundation could sell it's coins from the get go it would keep many traders from joining in on this coin.

The foundation wants to be the primary holder the first five years and will be giving away tons of coins to major websites as an adoption bonus and as a freemium. So they won't be selling too many coins unless we come into spikes often. The coin has a year to sell off coins to cover the following years expenses,

I thought that would be a job of foundations to control pumps, and profit from it for the greater good, not founders personal profiteering?
I would like to know for sure that founders coin is released at month end, not beginning.
I would expect foundation coin to be sold immediately.

could you find out for sure?
(or maybe the team wont communicate)

BTW, was the stake modifier the innovation you were trying to remember?

edit- Kahir still waiting for reply

By buying some of the presale coins they can keep the pump from getting to out of hand. All coins that get attention get hit by pump crews, the founders having coins would mean they could try to lessen the blow and they'd make some profit. So it's a win - win - win

Just because I believe in neucoins future doesn't mean I won't sell a bunch if the price get really high to buy it back when it drops back off. These are businessmen not Blind fools, they know how crypto works.

Now why would anyone who truly believes in nokoin's future and is in for the long haul want unrestricted coins if not for PnD?

If I understand correctly the first month only the presale coins and the 5 million PoW coins will be available. After that point I've no clue how many coins they intend to let into circulation from the foundation, it is apparent that it will vary according to what the price is at and how many coins they need to sell in order to pay for coding upgrades and the like for the following year. The angels/investors/founders won't get their coins until the end of every month, so none of those coins will be used. But I didn't see anywhere saying that the angels/investors/ and founders couldn't take part in the presale. So I believe a number of the big buyers were them so that they could have a nice stack of unrestricted coins. All survey rewards and coins of that likeness will be given out at the end of the first month. They intend for the foundations to be the majority holder for the first five years. I think they will be waiting until January when the release of the first platform will give it a boost in usage is when they intend to give away and sell the most to keep the price from becoming to volatile.

I never said neucoin won't "work" (it might work as well as another poS coin such as blackcoin), I'm just saying they haven't presented any innovations.

I happen to think ALL PoS coins suffer from the fundamental costless simulation flaw.  What's interesting is that neucoin marketing seems to acknowledge these PoS problems exist and claims they will solve them with their innovations. (they specifically mention "nothing at stake" which is another phrase to describe 'costless simulation'). But upon close examination, they don't really have a solution, or at the very least they don't have anything new that hasn't been done/tried before. 

The fundamental attack which I think is possible on any PoS system is known as "grinding".  Very simply, it involves building an alternate chain longer than the main chain by computing different
permutations of transactions and blocks.  This is nothing new, its been written about and debated endlessly in the cryptocurrency world for the last several years.

The neucoin white paper is very jargony and seems confused. It doesn't make too much sense to me as far as its organization and conclusions.  Personally I think Sunny King was being very generous and polite when he said its 80% right.  It's obviously not his style to get into a flame war.  My hats off to him. But rather than arguing whether it is 'correct', I simply ask: what is the innovation?  And the best answer anyone can give is 'floating stake modifier' which is not an innovation since Blackcoin did it first and really doesn't solve much as it is simply a method for stochastically choosing who mints the next block (which is also accomplished by existing cryptocurrencies like Nxt in their own implementations.)

I hope my position is clear now.

You gave me a link of about 100 posts. Which, if any, can I pin you down on as saying this is the attack that will prevent Neucoin from working?

You argue like a politician.

It's unclear.  Until we see a statement from Sunny its all just forum yakking.

Integrate what?

Lorrav,

I think the relevant piece of info when I
follow your link is:

scam_confirm conveniently chopped off part of my message:

Guess we'll have to wait till Torrgeek/Dart comfirm/deny this is the innovation.
on the same lines, why cant Torrgeek/dart remember this innovation?

edit- Torrgeek, Kahir posted to ask "when is launch / listing on exchange"
(I understand 30 pages is a lot so I give you a clue, it's on this page)

So the "floating stake modifier" (which Blackcoin already did at least 6-12 months ago) is their big innovation.  

(I don't think it really counts as an innovation if someone else did it prior.)

And if the Neucoin team never heard about it before as they claim, how big of an innovation is
it really?  Why wasn't there a clamouring celebration in the crypto community when Blackcoin
first published this "innovation"?

I'll tell you why.

Because its really just another method of choosing who gets to forge the next block.
How's is it fundamentally any different from, say, Nxt's generation signature parameter?
Doesn't that also solve any precomputation issues?   Isn't it basically the same thing?

Certainly it doesn't "stop all attack vectors" as the basic stake grinding is still
possible even if precomputations aren't.

EDIT:

The NXT Whitepaper says this:


It seems the implementations are different, but the result is the same.  You won't be able to "precompute" anything longer than 1 block.   

I THINK the innovation Dart/Torrgeek mean is the "floating" stake modifier,
http://forum.neucoin.org/t/a-reply-to-the-neucoin-white-paper/356

bigredmachine ( a member of the development team for another coin utilizing a variant of Proof of Stake) says,
"First and foremost, the attribute that most troubles me about this paper is that you have either failed to fully grasp BlackCoin's Proof of Stake 2.0 implementation from last summer, or otherwise are trying to take credit away from BlackCoin's developers."

Dart says,
"I'm don't know much at all about NXT/Blackcoin so I don't know when it did the things you're referring to but this coin has been in works for over a year so it is possible that they came up with the idea before or about the same time, but simply didn't publish it."

Kourosh says,
"The reason behind this is that we arrived at the same conclusions than BlackCoin on our own (especially concerning the modification of the stake modifier). It's only after we had decided to have it "floating" that I actually realized this was one of the modifications BlackCoin had made in its previous update."

HOWEVER, the nokoin WP (full version) now allocate this innovation to Blackcoin,
"3.2/5 Stake  modifier: NeuCoin  chose  to  adapt  BlackCoin's stake  modifier, which floats over time,"
 
BTW Dart, you seem to think there will only be 100m nokoin on the market at release, (the presale coins)
do you think there will also be foundation coins available for purchase from day 1, (unlimited amount)
also angel/team coins available for purchase from day 1 (all be it a restricted amount)

Will these extra coins flood the market and overshadow the presale investor coins?

(Jonald, thanks for previous answer)

I think someone from peercoin may have said neucoin team should help peercoin instead of starting their own coin,
but I haven't seen any innovations that originated out of the neucoin whitepaper. 

Perhaps I'm wrong and someone can point it out for me.