Topic: [ANN] Spondoolies-Tech - carrier grade, data center ready mining rigs - page 546. (Read 1260354 times)

Collider, let me help you think about this more clearly.

If you have some fiat to spend, you can buy a miner, buy BTC or do something else with it.
We are interested in comparing the first two options.

So lets say you have enough fiat to buy a SP30, which for purposes of this exercise costs (say) $5000 or 9 BTC. These numbers are only approximate and don't really matter for this example.

Now, if you buy a SP30 and you mine only 6 BTC, then you have effectively purchased 6 BTC for $5000 (plus hosting costs)

But if you buy BTC with your fiat you have 9 BTC. And you have it all in hand up front and you have some flexibility deciding when and if you want to convert it back to fiat, whereas when you mine BTC you don't have so much flexibility because you only earn BTC a bit at a time, and you are exposed to risk coming from changing network difficulty.

So, which would you rather do ?

Hint #1: the answer depends on how many BTC you think a SP30 will mine.
Hint #2: no body can predict with absolute certainty what future network difficulty will be, but we can all probably agree that it isn't going to get lower any time soon and there is a good chance it will go ballistic over the next 4-6 weeks of diff changes.

You have to mine more BTC with an SP30 (or any other miner) than it costs in BTC if you want to recover the cost of your 'investment'. It doesn't matter whether you calculate this in fiat or BTC.

Obviously, if you don't care whether you recover your costs, then all this doesn't matter.

What I am saying...OPEN your mind, buddy...

If the milk price tanks though, I can still eat my cow.

The cow doesn´t compete for a fixed, newly generated portion of the global milk production though, does it?
Does your cow produce more milk when other farmers kill their cows?

Could you make you cow produce a different milk-like substance, which shares the basic formular of milk but works in a different manner?

Do you pay for your cow with milk? (Most people don´t.) If you get less different goods for your produced milk, but still produce more milk than you payed for it, would you consider it as a positive ROI?
(If you weren´t able to drink your milk because of lactose intollerance, as obviously you cannot eat BTC).

Historically cows are farmed because of their MILK...not the meat in pounds...MILK (BTC)...buddy...

Think about it...before posting back...

EDIT...:

Hundreds of years already...MILK (BTC) ...Capisco...


$ is doomed...BTC not...

$$$ = COLORED PRINTED PAPER...OK...Who is the printer...?...in control...? ...Think again...

BTC printing...

no-one big enough to step up and give advisory as to why?
doesn't surprise me.

Bad example, I could also slaughter the cow for meat, hold the cow for amusement or transportation, work on the field, or research purposes (or to annoy my neighbour by having it poop on his lawn).

All these actions, goods or services can be priced in a common form of value.

After all, you don´t necessarily hold the cow for milk, you could also hold it for profit on the sold milk (fiat or goods) or because you are speculating that livestock will be worth more in a year, due to livestock shortage.

Let's do this...

The cow have been around long enough...RIGHT...

People buy cows because they are producing MILK...

Cows need to eat...


ETC...replace cow with mining  gear...Milk with BTC...

Capisco...

ZiG

No, buying miners is a hedged investment in Bitcoin, not simply "buying bitcoin", allowing for lower risk.

It could also be argued that it is an investment in any sha-256 currency. There goes your bitcoin out of the door.


The argument "if you had bought bitcoin at the time Z" and comparing it to a different investment is a fallacy, as it comes with different risks and possible rewards.

ROI has to be calculated in some common and comparably stable form of value, which bitcoin isn´t yet.
If you get more bitcoins out of mining because bitcoin has tanked to 50$ and competition has therefore lowered, I would like to see you claim positive ROI.

As i ultimately use fiat to purchase miners that are priced in fiat (mostly), I will however calculate my ROI in fiat. If you want to, you can calculate your ROI in bananas, as for all I care.

might someone be so kind to advise why my posts regarding my Israel p2pool node (which was set up to benefit Spondoolies datacentre miners) have been deleted?

whoever is having a jolly time deleting posts should realise that the OP of this thread had encouraged the community here to work together.
we are not here to succumb to dictatorship, we are here to help one another.

methinks someone has their megalomaniac 'i must delete all posts' hat on today 

That's miner's fallacy

You buy miners that produce BTC, if the miner that you buy produces less BTC than its cost in BTC you're better off buying BTC instead of miners and the more BTC's value goes up the more you're better off buying BTC directly not to mention the case when you buy them paying in BTC.

spiccioli

Lets make everything simple.

You give me 9 BTC now and I will give you 6 BTC on Jan. 1 2015. Escrow is ok.

No hosting cost, no shipping cost, no downtime. Takers ?

Nearly every hardware manufacturer calculates hardware cost in fiat (because parts are bought in $ equivalent) and as such hardware price is also calculated in fiat.

This remains as long as fiat is the reference of value for goods.

As long as fiat is the reference of value, gained mining value (and hence ROI) should be calculated in $/€.


You can always repurchase your spent Bitcoins, so you allow for a fiat valuation of every "only bitcoin" product.

PS: There is a difference between cost and price 

..."Hardware cost is traditionally calculated in $..." , until the innovation of Bitcoin...specially of BTC mining gear...

Cheers,

ZiG

No, it really shouldn't.

(New fw version awailible for download.)

With new friends:

Yingfei Li, Bitmain
Xiang Liao ("Jack"), lightningasic CEO
Alex Kampl, Allied Control

Not in the picture:
David Fan, Bitquan ("AM") General Manager
Rock Xie and Alex Lam of RockMiner

Had a great time.

Guy

Hardware cost is traditionally calculated in $, and ROI should also be calculated as such.

Mining is a hedged Bitcoin investment, with lower rewards at a rising bitcoin price but also lower risk.

For existing orders, just the opposite is true. What matters most is how many BTC the SP30 generates. If the exchange rate goes up, and the network hashrate also goes up, then the SP30 will mine fewer BTC.

A high exchange rate will make future SP30 purchases more profitable, since fewer BTC will be spent purchasing the SP30 and thus the BTC mined to break even will be lower.

But every hardware manufacturer has some fixed costs which can't go down no matter how cheap is the chip. PSUs, cases, fans, heatsinks etc so the price can't be extremely low. It would be interesting to hear some numbers for the fixed costs per GH/s. I'm thinking that they are around 0.1-0.3$/GH/s for a full system without the chips.

Correct, hashrate follows price (atleast till the next block halving ) with some lag (3-6 months, barring btc price explosion) under "ideal" circumstances.

In the end, mining income will only be electricity price + small "bonus", as seen several times during the GPU era (before the massive price increases).

Power consumption of 0.2 should be achievable by mid to late 2015, when 16/14nm designs become available, maybe earlier if there is some more potential for improvement on 28nm.