Topic: [ANN] SpreadCoin | True Decentralization (No Pools) | Testing New Masternodes - page 196. (Read 810085 times)
January 29, 2015, 12:28:37 AM
Troll Challenge: start an open SPR pool so we can all see how long it takes one person to sweep all the mined coins and run off.
January 29, 2015, 12:28:24 AM
And just so that everyone understand:
1- are pools possible? YES
2- are there already any pools? YES, private ones, at least one
3- are big pools possible? Maybe, but they are not economical.
4- Why? because anyone can steal the block found, so in practice, it is equivalent to solo mining.
5- since the restriction are economical and not technical, isn't there an economical work around for making pools possible? maybe, but no one has thought of them yet.
6- what happens if someone think of them? We, as a community, and Mr. Spread as the main dev will have to outsmart them and come up with new economical restrictions to pooling.
1- are pools possible? YES
2- are there already any pools? YES, private ones, at least one
3- are big pools possible? Maybe, but they are not economical.
4- Why? because anyone can steal the block found, so in practice, it is equivalent to solo mining.
5- since the restriction are economical and not technical, isn't there an economical work around for making pools possible? maybe, but no one has thought of them yet.
6- what happens if someone think of them? We, as a community, and Mr. Spread as the main dev will have to outsmart them and come up with new economical restrictions to pooling.
I am cool with that #6 - nothing lasts forever.
My personal opinion, and i make it clear here that this is an opinion, not a fact, is that we will never see an workaround for the economical restrictions for two main reasons:
1- no one fucking cares
2- they are based in very strong and longly established game theory concepts (mainly, iterated prisoner's dilema)
January 29, 2015, 12:23:29 AM
And just so that everyone understand:
1- are pools possible? YES
2- are there already any pools? YES, private ones, at least one
3- are big pools possible? Maybe, but they are not economical.
4- Why? because anyone can steal the block found, so in practice, it is equivalent to solo mining.
5- since the restriction are economical and not technical, isn't there an economical work around for making pools possible? maybe, but no one has thought of them yet.
6- what happens if someone think of them? We, as a community, and Mr. Spread as the main dev will have to outsmart them and come up with new economical restrictions to pooling.
1- are pools possible? YES
2- are there already any pools? YES, private ones, at least one
3- are big pools possible? Maybe, but they are not economical.
4- Why? because anyone can steal the block found, so in practice, it is equivalent to solo mining.
5- since the restriction are economical and not technical, isn't there an economical work around for making pools possible? maybe, but no one has thought of them yet.
6- what happens if someone think of them? We, as a community, and Mr. Spread as the main dev will have to outsmart them and come up with new economical restrictions to pooling.
I am cool with that #6 - nothing lasts forever.
January 29, 2015, 12:08:10 AM
And just so that everyone understand:
1- are pools possible? YES
2- are there already any pools? YES, private ones, at least one
3- are big pools possible? Maybe, but they are not economical.
4- Why? because anyone can steal the block found, so in practice, it is equivalent to solo mining.
5- since the restriction are economical and not technical, isn't there an economical work around for making pools possible? maybe, but no one has thought of them yet.
6- what happens if someone think of them? We, as a community, and Mr. Spread as the main dev will have to outsmart them and come up with new economical restrictions to pooling.
1- are pools possible? YES
2- are there already any pools? YES, private ones, at least one
3- are big pools possible? Maybe, but they are not economical.
4- Why? because anyone can steal the block found, so in practice, it is equivalent to solo mining.
5- since the restriction are economical and not technical, isn't there an economical work around for making pools possible? maybe, but no one has thought of them yet.
6- what happens if someone think of them? We, as a community, and Mr. Spread as the main dev will have to outsmart them and come up with new economical restrictions to pooling.
January 29, 2015, 12:03:28 AM
Hey guys, I think we can fix pool mining!!
I just need to know how the hashing works (like, what gets hashed and in which order). Can someone please tell me?
Bump.I just need to know how the hashing works (like, what gets hashed and in which order). Can someone please tell me?
you should take a look at the code, but it goes roughly like this:
1- the whole block is hashed with double sha2.
2- the header, except for the hash above is signed with the private key and the least significant 5 bits of the nonce
3- results from 1 and 2 are appended to the header
4- the header is hashed with X11
5- compare with target, publish if it was reached, start again if not.
January 29, 2015, 12:01:33 AM
1) Private pools are not open pools, they will not let anyone join. Because every miner needs the privkey to mine, anyone untrusted will steal the mined coins. So real pools and multipools, never.
2) If you check the updated Network Hashrate from the OP, then you will see the biggest miner is 5%, not 25% (address SkRo). The largest portion on that chart (78%) is hundreds of small addresses all mining, the very essence of decentralization. The chart at the very bottom is historical (not current), and the largest address only mined for a month last year when the diff was lower.
3) Not even close, please do better research.
[/quote]
+1
January 28, 2015, 11:55:54 PM
Hey guys, I think we can fix pool mining!!
I just need to know how the hashing works (like, what gets hashed and in which order). Can someone please tell me?
Bump. I just need to know how the hashing works (like, what gets hashed and in which order). Can someone please tell me?
January 28, 2015, 11:54:56 PM
I think that many of us need to stop mining tspr. Unless you are setting up nodes we might as well stop. Let those working towards creating more nodes get tspr.
I need a few more tSpr so I can setup a couple more nodes. I posted my address in the giveaway thread on spreadcointalk. No coins received yet.
send me the link and I will give you 80 tspr
http://spreadcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40.msg682#msg682
January 28, 2015, 11:53:05 PM
I'm sure this won't make any difference, some folks only read what they want to.
Do we have a pool? Yes.
It's merely a pool server we setup to solo mine to nothing more, we just so happened to let a couple of other small hashrate users in to help out a bit. Is it a risk? Of course it is.
Mr. Spread has done quite a good job at keeping this coin a solo mineable, that doesn't mean that it will always be that way, there a lot of smart folks around here and if there is enough $ involved then one should expect that there will be others trying to get in on the action in some form or another.
Do we have a pool? Yes.
It's merely a pool server we setup to solo mine to nothing more, we just so happened to let a couple of other small hashrate users in to help out a bit. Is it a risk? Of course it is.
Mr. Spread has done quite a good job at keeping this coin a solo mineable, that doesn't mean that it will always be that way, there a lot of smart folks around here and if there is enough $ involved then one should expect that there will be others trying to get in on the action in some form or another.
I hear you.
Your arguments were always reasonable.
We will see what the markets will tell and what the programmers will innovate.
true, i was looking for the "like" button, to like his comment, but it was not available
January 28, 2015, 11:52:59 PM
I think that many of us need to stop mining tspr. Unless you are setting up nodes we might as well stop. Let those working towards creating more nodes get tspr.
I need a few more tSpr so I can setup a couple more nodes. I posted my address in the giveaway thread on spreadcointalk. No coins received yet.
send me the link and I will give you 80 tspr
January 28, 2015, 11:52:23 PM
I think that many of us need to stop mining tspr. Unless you are setting up nodes we might as well stop. Let those working towards creating more nodes get tspr.
Well, it doesn't really matter if you mine or if you ask for coins from those who mine, there needs to be a constant mining in the testnet so that we can keep the testnet alive for the masternodes. No need to use big hashrates, though. a single core from your VPS or home computer will suffice.
January 28, 2015, 11:50:33 PM
I think that many of us need to stop mining tspr. Unless you are setting up nodes we might as well stop. Let those working towards creating more nodes get tspr.
I need a few more tSpr so I can setup a couple more nodes. I posted my address in the giveaway thread on spreadcointalk. No coins received yet.
January 28, 2015, 11:50:19 PM
I'm sure this won't make any difference, some folks only read what they want to.
Do we have a pool? Yes.
It's merely a pool server we setup to solo mine to nothing more, we just so happened to let a couple of other small hashrate users in to help out a bit. Is it a risk? Of course it is.
Mr. Spread has done quite a good job at keeping this coin a solo mineable, that doesn't mean that it will always be that way, there a lot of smart folks around here and if there is enough $ involved then one should expect that there will be others trying to get in on the action in some form or another.
Do we have a pool? Yes.
It's merely a pool server we setup to solo mine to nothing more, we just so happened to let a couple of other small hashrate users in to help out a bit. Is it a risk? Of course it is.
Mr. Spread has done quite a good job at keeping this coin a solo mineable, that doesn't mean that it will always be that way, there a lot of smart folks around here and if there is enough $ involved then one should expect that there will be others trying to get in on the action in some form or another.
I hear you.
Your arguments were always reasonable.
We will see what the markets will tell and what the programmers will innovate.
January 28, 2015, 11:48:16 PM
I think that many of us need to stop mining tspr. Unless you are setting up nodes we might as well stop. Let those working towards creating more nodes get tspr.
January 28, 2015, 11:47:59 PM
Trolls are annoying as hell. My Ignore button will be used alot in the next few weeks.
January 28, 2015, 11:47:49 PM
Yea rite.. I looked the other day and a single spread address controlled over 25% of the network, get your facts straight.
Wether it's pools or single miners, I tend to think the latter is worse. At least pools have accountability in which they have to obey to the network policies up to some point to ensure their miners get paid. I'd rather have 25% of a network in the hand of a pool op having 500 users behind vs a single farmer.
Do you have a way to disprove my opinon? How can mine be fud and your's not?
Edit; also large pools is just a question of time as the "solo" edge of Spreadcoin has been flawed, hence I saw it had it's purpose beaten.
Wether it's pools or single miners, I tend to think the latter is worse. At least pools have accountability in which they have to obey to the network policies up to some point to ensure their miners get paid. I'd rather have 25% of a network in the hand of a pool op having 500 users behind vs a single farmer.
Do you have a way to disprove my opinon? How can mine be fud and your's not?
Edit; also large pools is just a question of time as the "solo" edge of Spreadcoin has been flawed, hence I saw it had it's purpose beaten.
Large pools are not a question of time, the larger the pool, the easier it is for miners to steal from it, so pools, if they ever arise (aside from individuals testing by themselves), will keep small, within a group of trusted friends. Unless you come with a way to avoid the stealing of coins (and no one has yet), you opinion is flawed.
About being FUD, think of it: you are a pool owner, posting in an announcement thread for a coin that avoids pooling by enabling users to steal from them, quoting spammers that write in big red letters in an aggressive, accusatory tone, based on non existent facts and made up data. Well, you might call it opinion, but that's a hell of a misplaced opinion.
Last time I checked I didn't own any pool anymore.. what's you point..
Is there pools on spreadcoin? Yes
Is there mining centralization? Yes
Is Spreadcoin's purpose totally flawed at the moment? Yes
My point is totally valid.
1) Private pools are not open pools, they will not let anyone join. Because every miner needs the privkey to mine, anyone untrusted will steal the mined coins. So real pools and multipools, never.
2) If you check the updated Network Hashrate from the OP, then you will see the biggest miner is 5%, not 25% (address SkRo). The largest portion on that chart (78%) is hundreds of small addresses all mining, the very essence of decentralization. The chart at the very bottom is historical (not current), and the largest address only mined for a month last year when the diff was lower.
3) Not even close, please do better research.
January 28, 2015, 11:46:18 PM
(...)
Well, if Mr. Spread wasn't banned, maybe he could change it. Ever thought about that?bitman008 is a troll, please ignore him. We can address real issues with real people and leave the trolls talking alone...
January 28, 2015, 11:45:38 PM
(...)
Well, if Mr. Spread wasn't banned, maybe he could change it. Ever thought about that?bitman008 is a troll, please ignore him. We can address real issues with real people and leave the trolls talking alone...
January 28, 2015, 11:44:47 PM
As already explained, several time, the feature of "no pools" does not mean that it is impossible to maintain a pool, but rather that they are not economically viable, since anyone can steal the coins form them [...]
Would be somewhat easy to secure by moving coins to a separate wallet as soon as they confirm and make the payouts from there. The only problem I'd see is if a miner would move the coins before the pool does.
that's an arm race, with a 50-50 chance for each one to win, so the pool owner can make it profitable by rising the fees and paying the other users from his revenue, but then... it is risky...
another solution might be that the pool owner charges a "deposit" from the miners, and if the miner steals something, the deposit is held and the miner banned. But i don't see this growing into large scale. Thats an experiment worth making.
January 28, 2015, 11:44:29 PM
nonce pool was a test pool to see if it would be possible to mine. But it didn't work because anyone in the pool could run a way with the coins because the private keys are visible. So the pool was a fail. It was posted many times already. So there can be no large pools. The only way you could make a pool would be to make a private pool with trust worthy people you know and hang around with in real life to make sure no one steals the coins. But even a close friend could get greedy and steal the coins. So it's still a no large pool coin. Another scenario is a multi-pool that mines other coins and buys spr off the open market but that would only help increase the value of it, because the people mining other coins to get spr would be the people wanting to hold and not sell, and even that still wouldn't be an official pool.
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