Topic: [ANN] SpreadCoin | True Decentralization (No Pools) | Testing New Masternodes - page 293. (Read 810099 times)

When deciding the max amount of MN we need to take into consideration the max amount of coins that will ever be mined: 20 million coins, because that's where we will naturally get the UPPER LIMIT for the max deposit per MN from. We don't have to set the max amount per deposit, much like we don't have to set a min amount per deposit. If we have 20 million coins, and 1000 MNs, this means the max will be 20k SPR.

Mr.Spread how accurate is the final coinsupply? Will it be "about" 20 million, maybe even 21?

Mr. Spread, have you decided on the masternode limit yet?

What georgem says is true, there will be not enough spreadcoins.

Do you afraid that someone will start tens of thousands of DarkCon masternodes to just outnumber everyone else and receive 90% of rewards? This is simply not possible because there are not enough darkcoins.

1.Good point, at some point they start eating each others lunch...

Greedy bastards.

Just kidding.

2. Totally true, they shoot themselves in the foot with this.

Haha, I'll take that as a compliment. Yep I enjoy this colorfull language!

I understand your viewpoint.
What I think the speciality about all this is that if you want your MN to be secured you will need to pay so much money for it, that you can't possibly (NOT WITH ALL THE SPR THAT EXISTS) fill all the available MN seats.
As a millionaire you can create a lot of MNs alright. And drive the price up, sure.
But securing all those MNs by moving them to the RIGHT SIDE of the SPREAD? (where they enter a state of untouchability.)

Impossible.

So you will have to endure the newcomers who will constantly try (and succeed) to take your seats away!

You guys are all forgetting that there is only around 1M spr in the wild. Which means having 1k masternodes means that (if all coins are used as DM's) they will all have 1k spr each.
It seems pretty fair to me.

I can see your cartoonist mind at work in every post (looking forward to seeing an animated rendition of the angry bear eating the slowest camper to explain SPR masternodes  )!

The problem is that whales aren't just a guy who can run a little faster than you - they have millions of dollars. They can fill up a thousand spots and easily keep the average guy from getting even a single seat at the table. If the Winklevoss twins find out about SPR, they aren't going to get in a bidding war against you 1 SPR at a time for a masternode. They will make sure out of the gate that you have no chance.

But hey, maybe that will work itself out... If it gets too expensive for an average guy to own a masternode, at least that means the SPR we do own will be worth a lot more. The downside is centralization for a few very rich MN owners; the upside is less network traffic and a very valuable coin.

Consider the following two situations:
1. You have started a DarkCoin masternode, there were 800 masternodes at that time so you were receiving reward every 500 blocks. After some time there are 1600 masternodes and you receive reward 2x less frequently, to receive the same income you will now need to start another masternode and invest another 1000 DRK. Other people starting masternodes will affect you even if there is no limit on number of masternodes.
2. Imagine DarkCoin has a limit of 2000 masternodes and market-determined deposit amount. You are afraid that this mechanism will make it too expensive to run a masternode but instead it would make it cheaper than 1000 DRK in current situation since there are only 1777 masternodes.

Not really, you first need a newcomer who tries to take the weakling out. With a little luck the weakling can survive long enough to make a small profit!

It's important to understand that there is a SPREAD.

It's not like everybody is bidding for the same auction and the highest bidder wins.
It's more like the strongest MN and the weakest MN decide what the SPREAD will be like (where all the rest of the MN will be located in ascending order, depending on the amount of SPR they have invested.)

The (not necessarily) constantly rising barrier is for one seat only! (it might go down, if e.g. someone cashes out his MN)
Also, you need to understand that there is not ONE barrier that changes, it is a SPREAD! (This is too beautiful to be true, man)

It's up to you to decide if you want to pay ALOT of SPR to completely secure your MN,
or pay a little less SPR and be in the middle range of the SPREAD.
You decide your degree of security (against losing your seat)

We need to consider the fact, that ONLY the weakest link will have a hard time.
The farther away from the weakest link you are in your ranking, the more you can start feeling like a DARKCOIN masternode owner, and chill.
But it's gonna cost ya!  


With deep pockets you can decide to play the game in one of two extremes (and everything in between):

1) Secure all your MNs with high amounts of SPR to make them virtually untouchable. You will make profit, but not as much as potentially possible. But you will be safe, making safe profit all day.
2) You have a lot of weakly backed MNs that create much profit, but are in such a low rank, that a more motivated MN owner might grab your "market share" away if you are not careful.

It will be like a spread.
To the right the secured expensive MNs.
To the left the constant dying and rebirthing of new MNs.
In the middle we have the MNs who are either on the way to become more secured, or more moving towards the meatgrinder because of GREED! It's their decision.

Stupid question but in the greater scheme does this mean - The highest bidder puts in his/her 10,000 SPR  Mega DM up, everyone in between is safe and the DM at the bottom with let's say 1 SPR is the only one left blockless?

Nothing except a constantly rising barrier. 


The only competition is whoever has the deepest pockets.

But nothing is more restrictive than a fixed barrier to entry, don't you agree?
Nothing fuels the competition more than having the amount of AVAILABLE SEATS restricted.

Let me make an analogy:
Imagine a small village with two bakeries. Obviously the amount of breads that will be consumed by this village is limited.
Those two bakeries are already in competition, but they are lazy. Now if a new bakery enters the village and does a better job than the others, then this bakery will steal a big chunk of the market share of the competition.
And he deserves it. And atleast one of the other bakeries will have to close down, or what is this, charity? Do the taxpayers need to keep the lazy bakery alive or what?
But why does darkcoin think it's a good idea to open 1000s (unlimited amounts) of bakeries in this village? That does NOTHING for competition.
It's like letting everyone open a bakery (without reservation) and have the taxpayer pay for them, it's ridiculous!
Yes, everyone is allowed to start as a bakery, but the market will quickly and fiercely tell you if a) you are doing a good job, and b) if you are even NEEDED.

Again, we don't know yet what the best MAX AMOUNT of masternodes for Spreadcoin is going to be. (for this we will also need to know all the services that Spreadcoin is going to offer in the future)
But the premise of having masternodes fight it out among themselves regarding how much they are willing to pay for a seat is BRILLIANT.  

It always boggled my mind that with darkcoin you just make an initial investment, and can then see how your money grows. What is this wallstreet?

You're nuts.

With rising prices and dwindling supply that 1 extra SPR is going to cost you ever more dearly. Dynamic pricing is going to restrict newcomers entering the market, that's all it's going to achieve - the opposite of your stated goal of decentralisation.

Regular folk will take one look at how Spread's dynamic MN pricing favours the rich and walk away laughing. After all the hard work done so far to get the only truly decentralised PoW currency up and running you want to throw it away by handing half the block reward to the whales on a plate.

Guess what, you can cut a pretty good deal with a provider if you want to rent 100 VPS instances...

It's a vicious feedback loop for the small guy and the small guy is going to take his money elsewhere.

Still waiting for an answer to, "what advantages does this bring?" that doesn't involve nebulous blather about free markets...

Introducing another mechanism for the rich to profit at the expense of the poor is not a cunning plan for Spread. But if I haven't convinced anyone yet I'm never going to...

Now you guys are being daft. This is silly. It can be just as restrictive, likely even more, than having a fixed barrier to entry.

You also say that to be safe, you could just buy up (total supply / #of allowed nodes). You think it's reasonable for a "newcomer" to acquire between 1/3000th and 1/1000th of the total/current supply of a currency? Hint: it's not.

So far, I've not been convinced of much relative benefit of one system compared to the other, except for a variable system requiring more coding (whether that's a meaningful difference or not, I don't know).

It's simply the difference between choosing a max # of nodes and letting the market decide the barrier to entry, and choosing the barrier to entry and letting the market decide the max number or nodes. It's really not very different from my perspective.

There is a famous saying:

If you are camping and a bear attacks the camp, you don't have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than the slowest camper.

The slowest camper is the weakest MN.
The bear is the newcomer.
All the other campers stay in the game, to see another day of profits.

Let that sink in for a second, because that's the basic principle why it will always be easy to secure your MN if you aren't greedy and have foresight.
And it will always be possible for newcomers to enter the market, because there will always be a slow greedy camper who ate too many sausages. ;-)
In this case it's in our favour that we are a greedy species, lol!

https://www.vultr.com/pricing/

Click pricing -> monthly.
The 5$ one is more than enough.

But try to avoid Vultr and amazon server when you come to build a MN.
Be creative, dig deep to find a more independent VPS.
Most MN will be hosted on amazon and vultr=not good for decentralisation.

the spread is looking good

Exactly! Deffo on the same page here...

MrSpread, are we anywhere close to correct here? Is what georgem and I are insinuating or are we completely off?

I think you might have this backwards my friend. Having a fixed limit on MNs will ensure that only the richest can play. With DRK, sure the price isn't cheap - at today's prices it's about $1,680 for a MN - but you don't have to be continuously richer and richer to compete. Once you're in, you're in.

With 1000 fixed SPR MNs, you can bet a few rich people will own the majority. And once they're entrenched, they will be harder to dislodge, because they will keep receiving more MN income than anyone. Plus, if I'm right about the price, SPR in 6 months will be worth a lot more than it is today, and it will be even harder to get a spot in the top 1000 with each passing day, heavily favoring early adopters.

Having said all of that, I don't think anyone can know for sure what will happen. A part of me wants to see the variable price / fixed number MN system in the wild, despite my misgivings. I might just invest in 1 MN and make sure its balance stays high enough to stay in the game.