I'm not seeing any advantage to having a dynamic MN collateral requirement.
I can tell you right now what will happen: the biggest holders will monoplise the MN 'allowance' and lock everyone else out.
Plus it adds code overhead to monitor and enforce the whole thing.
Just call it 1000SPR and have done with it, let market forces sort the rest out without things being weighted massively in favour of whoever holds the most SPR, which is all that a dynamic requirement is going to achieve.
A 1000SPR collateral would give a maximum theoretical number right now of 1500 MNs, which we know from DRK is not too many.
If decentralisation is the goal, implement some code to reject new MN's from certain IP ranges beyond a set % to prevent 75% of people just using Amazon, Vultr, OVH... or even better, come up with a way of allowing MNs to have dynamic IPs so people can run them on their home connections too.
Topic: [ANN] SpreadCoin | True Decentralization (No Pools) | Testing New Masternodes - page 297. (Read 810099 times)
January 08, 2015, 04:18:43 PM
January 08, 2015, 04:15:28 PM
There is another consequence which shows the brilliance of DM (decentralized masternodes):
Since DMs with different amounts of SPR deposited STILL earn the same amount of SPR, a very competition encouraging effect emerges:
Suppose I own 10k SPR.
I now have two options:
1) Either I create 1 DM only and put all my 10k SPR in it, making it a STRONG DM, a practically indestructible DM. Nobody can challenge it. Not even in the year 2106.
2) or I can create 10 DMs with only 1000 SPR each, making them WEAK DMs, but since every DM earns the same amount of SPR I will be possibly earning 10 Times the amount of SPR compared to the strong DM I could have installed instead.
BUT HERE'S THE CATCH:
Those WEAK DMs run the constant risk of being shut down by someone else who is happy to invest just 1 SPR more than you.
HAHA, this is sooo brilliant.
Everybody:
YES, WEAK DMs (backed by little SPR) can be shut down any moment, but you have the incentive of running MANY OF THEM, because you can potentially earn MORE SPR than a strong DM, and be it only temporarily.
This is brilliance in the making.
Since DMs with different amounts of SPR deposited STILL earn the same amount of SPR, a very competition encouraging effect emerges:
Suppose I own 10k SPR.
I now have two options:
1) Either I create 1 DM only and put all my 10k SPR in it, making it a STRONG DM, a practically indestructible DM. Nobody can challenge it. Not even in the year 2106.
2) or I can create 10 DMs with only 1000 SPR each, making them WEAK DMs, but since every DM earns the same amount of SPR I will be possibly earning 10 Times the amount of SPR compared to the strong DM I could have installed instead.
BUT HERE'S THE CATCH:
Those WEAK DMs run the constant risk of being shut down by someone else who is happy to invest just 1 SPR more than you.
HAHA, this is sooo brilliant.
Everybody:
YES, WEAK DMs (backed by little SPR) can be shut down any moment, but you have the incentive of running MANY OF THEM, because you can potentially earn MORE SPR than a strong DM, and be it only temporarily.
This is brilliance in the making.
January 08, 2015, 04:06:47 PM
The next question regarding DM has to be: will a DM with more SPR in it earn MORE SPR than a DM with fewer SPR?
To stay on the decentralized I would have to assume: NO!
It can't be that way, since it would destroy the competition principle and more or less go back to how darkcoin handles it.
DM owners will just constantly put their earnings back into their DM, earning more and more all the time, until they have a quasi monopoly over everything.
Therefor: a DM with 1000 SPR will earn exactly as much SPR as a DM with 10k SPR.
How will it destroy the competition? The lower ranked MN's will be kicked off the list.To stay on the decentralized I would have to assume: NO!
It can't be that way, since it would destroy the competition principle and more or less go back to how darkcoin handles it.
DM owners will just constantly put their earnings back into their DM, earning more and more all the time, until they have a quasi monopoly over everything.
Therefor: a DM with 1000 SPR will earn exactly as much SPR as a DM with 10k SPR.
And what does DM stand for?
DM - Decentralized Masternodes (spreadcoin)
MN - MasterNodes (darkcoin)
We have to use different names, we can't just call them both masternodes or it will cause confusion.
January 08, 2015, 03:53:02 PM
No one block per 24 hours.
1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
Variance is horrible when you have so little of the total hashrate (10.85/3780=0.29%). I have only 24 MH and can go 12 hours without a block. And the network almost doubled in the last 24 hours, so patience is needed. Over a week's (or more) time, it should even out somewhat. Your setup seems fine, you can always play with clock speeds and overclock to 1100/1500 or whatever your card will handle and get 2.00 MH out of each card.
Code:
sgminer -o 127.0.0.1:41677 -u xxxxxx -p xxxxxxx --thread-concurrency 8192 --lookup-gap 2 --worksize 256 -I 19 --gpu-fan 45 --gpu-engine 1050 --gpu memclock 1250 -g 2
January 08, 2015, 03:44:01 PM
No one block per 24 hours.
1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
ah yea what is ur catalyst version1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
January 08, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
The next question regarding DM has to be: will a DM with more SPR in it earn MORE SPR than a DM with fewer SPR?
To stay on the decentralized I would have to assume: NO!
It can't be that way, since it would destroy the competition principle and more or less go back to how darkcoin handles it.
DM owners will just constantly put their earnings back into their DM, earning more and more all the time, until they have a quasi monopoly over everything.
Therefor: a DM with 1000 SPR will earn exactly as much SPR as a DM with 10k SPR.
How will it destroy the competition? The lower ranked MN's will be kicked off the list.To stay on the decentralized I would have to assume: NO!
It can't be that way, since it would destroy the competition principle and more or less go back to how darkcoin handles it.
DM owners will just constantly put their earnings back into their DM, earning more and more all the time, until they have a quasi monopoly over everything.
Therefor: a DM with 1000 SPR will earn exactly as much SPR as a DM with 10k SPR.
And what does DM stand for?
January 08, 2015, 03:28:21 PM
The next question regarding DM has to be: will a DM with more SPR in it earn MORE SPR than a DM with fewer SPR?
To stay on the decentralized I would have to assume: NO!
It can't be that way, since it would destroy the competition principle and more or less go back to how darkcoin handles it.
DM owners will just constantly put their earnings back into their DM, earning more and more all the time, until they have a quasi monopoly over everything.
Therefor: a DM with 1000 SPR will earn exactly as much SPR as a DM with 10k SPR.
To stay on the decentralized I would have to assume: NO!
It can't be that way, since it would destroy the competition principle and more or less go back to how darkcoin handles it.
DM owners will just constantly put their earnings back into their DM, earning more and more all the time, until they have a quasi monopoly over everything.
Therefor: a DM with 1000 SPR will earn exactly as much SPR as a DM with 10k SPR.
January 08, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
Sorry for the noobie question, cannot solo mine this coin, getting 500 Internal Server error on tsiv nvidia miner...
Any ideas?
spreadcoin.conf used:
rpcuser=jpouza
rpcpassword=cash
rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
rpcallowip=192.168.1.*
rpcport=41677
port=41678
gen=0
server=1
Miner:
spreadminer -o http://127.0.0.1:41677 -u jpouza -p cash
Never solo mined before, my network internal IP range is 192.168.1.x, Wallet full syncronized and open...
Any ideas?
spreadcoin.conf used:
rpcuser=jpouza
rpcpassword=cash
rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
rpcallowip=192.168.1.*
rpcport=41677
port=41678
gen=0
server=1
Miner:
spreadminer -o http://127.0.0.1:41677 -u jpouza -p cash
Never solo mined before, my network internal IP range is 192.168.1.x, Wallet full syncronized and open...
Fixed! The only way to unlock the wallet is mining with the CPU?
Just pointed 1 core to the cpu mining and GPU miner is now allowed.
Cheers
January 08, 2015, 03:25:21 PM
Some Darkcoiners were kind enough to engage me in a debate about the dynamic market pricing of Spread Masternodes. While I was initially sold on the idea, they did bring up some good points and now I'm not quite so sold. I tried to play devils advocate and counter their arguments, but I did actually agree with some of them. Mr. Spread, you may want to read the debate starting here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.78200 before making your final decision.
I saw nothing there to persuade me that static master nodes are better than dynamic matter nodes. I think we will just have to see for ourselves how well this works out in a live environment and stop all this hypothetical 'if-then' stuff.
JL
I'm certainly not against it, just not 100% for it anymore. I just wanted Mr. Spread to take the other insight into account before he makes his decision. Whatever decision he goes with, I'll support at that point.
I hope dynamic masternodes will not require more technical knowledge or time to operate than the static ones. People who are busy with their daily work/responsibilities will not like the idea of constantly checking to see if their SPR masternodes are in the list or not. That might greatly discourage investment.
January 08, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
No one block per 24 hours.
1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
ah yea what is ur catalyst version 1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
January 08, 2015, 03:20:56 PM
Some Darkcoiners were kind enough to engage me in a debate about the dynamic market pricing of Spread Masternodes. While I was initially sold on the idea, they did bring up some good points and now I'm not quite so sold. I tried to play devils advocate and counter their arguments, but I did actually agree with some of them. Mr. Spread, you may want to read the debate starting here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.78200 before making your final decision.
I saw nothing there to persuade me that static master nodes are better than dynamic matter nodes. I think we will just have to see for ourselves how well this works out in a live environment and stop all this hypothetical 'if-then' stuff.
JL
I'm certainly not against it, just not 100% for it anymore. I just wanted Mr. Spread to take the other insight into account before he makes his decision. Whatever decision he goes with, I'll support at that point.
January 08, 2015, 03:19:38 PM
Sorry for the noobie question, cannot solo mine this coin, getting 500 Internal Server error on tsiv nvidia miner...
Any ideas?
spreadcoin.conf used:
rpcuser=jpouza
rpcpassword=cash
rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
rpcallowip=192.168.1.*
rpcport=41677
port=41678
gen=0
server=1
Miner:
spreadminer -o http://127.0.0.1:41677 -u jpouza -p cash
Never solo mined before, my network internal IP range is 192.168.1.x, Wallet full syncronized and open...
Any ideas?
spreadcoin.conf used:
rpcuser=jpouza
rpcpassword=cash
rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
rpcallowip=192.168.1.*
rpcport=41677
port=41678
gen=0
server=1
Miner:
spreadminer -o http://127.0.0.1:41677 -u jpouza -p cash
Never solo mined before, my network internal IP range is 192.168.1.x, Wallet full syncronized and open...
January 08, 2015, 03:19:29 PM
Also, there is a fascinating possibility.
One generous guy could grab 100k SPR and put them in his DM.
Now he can himself "master of the universe" if he wants.
AND: all the other 999 DMs below him have a much easier job to keep their DM (using the formula I gave before), since the generous guy took all those coins off the market and basically reduced the amount of available coins for everybody else, ergo making it easier for them to stay on the safe side.
BUT: ofcourse that means that the 999 DMs are at the mercy of the generous guy, who one day could simply decide: Meh, fu** that shit, I am going to take 90k SPR out of the DM, and have an endless party with bikini girls on some private island.
There is no thing for sure in the DM world, people will not be able to relax and chill, they will have to constantly WATCH THEIR BACK!
One generous guy could grab 100k SPR and put them in his DM.
Now he can himself "master of the universe" if he wants.
AND: all the other 999 DMs below him have a much easier job to keep their DM (using the formula I gave before), since the generous guy took all those coins off the market and basically reduced the amount of available coins for everybody else, ergo making it easier for them to stay on the safe side.
BUT: ofcourse that means that the 999 DMs are at the mercy of the generous guy, who one day could simply decide: Meh, fu** that shit, I am going to take 90k SPR out of the DM, and have an endless party with bikini girls on some private island.
There is no thing for sure in the DM world, people will not be able to relax and chill, they will have to constantly WATCH THEIR BACK!
January 08, 2015, 03:18:46 PM
Some Darkcoiners were kind enough to engage me in a debate about the dynamic market pricing of Spread Masternodes. While I was initially sold on the idea, they did bring up some good points and now I'm not quite so sold. I tried to play devils advocate and counter their arguments, but I did actually agree with some of them. Mr. Spread, you may want to read the debate starting here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.78200 before making your final decision.
Before making his final decision?
But Mr.Spread has already made his final decision when he started this project: Decentralization and decentralization ONLY.
Masternodes will only be implemented if they can be made into truly decentralized masternodes, there is NO compromise possible whatsoever. No tradeoffs of ANY kind.
Everything I have seen Mr.Spread do is pointing towards more decentralization (and consequently more competition).
Therefor you will not see Mr.Spread release "closed source code" EVER,
you will not see him implement enforcement switches only he has the keys to,
you will not see him talk about the need for a Spread Foundation etc.
He will always stay close to satoshis principles, like he is his disciple or something.
One thing I learned after reading this whole thread is: Mr. Spread is a principled guy.
But he is definitely determined to make SpreadCoin a totally decentralized coin and he has made that clear time and time again Cheers January 08, 2015, 03:14:08 PM
I think there is a formula for how much SPR your DM has got to have to be on the safe side of things.
You take the amount of available coins, say 1.5 million SPR.
Then you take the amount of maximum DM possible, let's make that 1000 DM for now.
If you now have 1500 SPR in your DM, there is NO way whatsoever that anyone can throw you out of the game, right?
Since it would mean that all the other 999 DM owners would need to have atleast 1500 + 1 SPR in their masternode,
which is MORE than the available amount of coins at that moment.
So the formula is simple:
You want to hold on to your DM?
Then the amount of SPR in your DM should be (All Available SPR) / (Max DM count) .
Ofcourse you have to up that constantly, since the amount of All Available SPR increases over time, but since it increases with the same tempo we know from BTC, that's not THAT fast.
Sure it is fast in the first few years, but after that, after we have entered a coin supply of 10 Million SPR, and an active flurishing SPR economy, there is no way someone is going to be able to take your DM away when you have 10k SPR in it, not even in the year 2106.
You take the amount of available coins, say 1.5 million SPR.
Then you take the amount of maximum DM possible, let's make that 1000 DM for now.
If you now have 1500 SPR in your DM, there is NO way whatsoever that anyone can throw you out of the game, right?
Since it would mean that all the other 999 DM owners would need to have atleast 1500 + 1 SPR in their masternode,
which is MORE than the available amount of coins at that moment.
So the formula is simple:
You want to hold on to your DM?
Then the amount of SPR in your DM should be (All Available SPR) / (Max DM count) .
Ofcourse you have to up that constantly, since the amount of All Available SPR increases over time, but since it increases with the same tempo we know from BTC, that's not THAT fast.
Sure it is fast in the first few years, but after that, after we have entered a coin supply of 10 Million SPR, and an active flurishing SPR economy, there is no way someone is going to be able to take your DM away when you have 10k SPR in it, not even in the year 2106.
January 08, 2015, 03:00:35 PM
Some Darkcoiners were kind enough to engage me in a debate about the dynamic market pricing of Spread Masternodes. While I was initially sold on the idea, they did bring up some good points and now I'm not quite so sold. I tried to play devils advocate and counter their arguments, but I did actually agree with some of them. Mr. Spread, you may want to read the debate starting here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.78200 before making your final decision.
Well I am not into the technical side at all. But I think a MasterNode, let say 1000 SPR, should stay 1000 SPR.
If it's dynamic, you can loose your MasterNode.
But again I'm not fully aware of the potential benefits of dynamic MasterNodes
That's the point, it is good that people can lose their decentralized masternode.
It keeps them alert.
It keeps them upping their game, not just stand there like some entitled people, expecting rewards and honours.
NO, they have to constantly prove that they EARN IT from now on.
Decentralized masternodes introduce free market competition.
1000% agree here.
January 08, 2015, 02:59:50 PM
Some Darkcoiners were kind enough to engage me in a debate about the dynamic market pricing of Spread Masternodes. While I was initially sold on the idea, they did bring up some good points and now I'm not quite so sold. I tried to play devils advocate and counter their arguments, but I did actually agree with some of them. Mr. Spread, you may want to read the debate starting here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.78200 before making your final decision.
I saw nothing there to persuade me that static master nodes are better than dynamic matter nodes. I think we will just have to see for ourselves how well this works out in a live environment and stop all this hypothetical 'if-then' stuff.
JL
January 08, 2015, 02:55:33 PM
Some Darkcoiners were kind enough to engage me in a debate about the dynamic market pricing of Spread Masternodes. While I was initially sold on the idea, they did bring up some good points and now I'm not quite so sold. I tried to play devils advocate and counter their arguments, but I did actually agree with some of them. Mr. Spread, you may want to read the debate starting here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.78200 before making your final decision.
Well I am not into the technical side at all. But I think a MasterNode, let say 1000 SPR, should stay 1000 SPR.
If it's dynamic, you can loose your MasterNode.
But again I'm not fully aware of the potential benefits of dynamic MasterNodes
That's the point, it is good that people can lose their decentralized masternode.
It keeps them alert.
It keeps them upping their game, not just stand there like some entitled people, expecting rewards and honours.
NO, they have to constantly prove that they EARN IT from now on.
Decentralized masternodes introduce free market competition.
I say let DM have no minimum SPR requirement whatsoever. Let people install a DM for even 1 SPR, who cares.
The free market mechanism will simply shut them off in no time, that's the brilliance of it.
A maximum SPR requirement is ALSO not necessary, since the maximum DM count will probably be in the thousands, and we ONLY have a maximum amount of coins of 20 Million.
This means that with 1000 DMs we can't have more than 20k SPR per DM anyway, even if all available coins were locked in DMs, which ofcourse will never happen anyway.
January 08, 2015, 02:50:26 PM
No one block per 24 hours.
1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
1.81 Mh/s x 6 280x ~ 10.85 Mh/s
sgminer -I 19 -w 256 --thread-concurrency 8192 -g 2
Anybody know better config?
January 08, 2015, 02:46:50 PM
Some Darkcoiners were kind enough to engage me in a debate about the dynamic market pricing of Spread Masternodes. While I was initially sold on the idea, they did bring up some good points and now I'm not quite so sold. I tried to play devils advocate and counter their arguments, but I did actually agree with some of them. Mr. Spread, you may want to read the debate starting here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.78200 before making your final decision.
Before making his final decision?
But Mr.Spread has already made his final decision when he started this project: Decentralization and decentralization ONLY.
Masternodes will only be implemented if they can be made into truly decentralized masternodes, there is NO compromise possible whatsoever. No tradeoffs of ANY kind.
Everything I have seen Mr.Spread do is pointing towards more decentralization (and consequently more competition).
Therefor you will not see Mr.Spread release "closed source code" EVER,
you will not see him implement enforcement switches only he has the keys to,
you will not see him talk about the need for a Spread Foundation etc.
He will always stay close to satoshis principles, like he is his disciple or something.
One thing I learned after reading this whole thread is: Mr. Spread is a principled guy.
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