Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11 - page 102. (Read 583254 times)

I can point explorer.karmacoin.me to the alternate block explorer. No one has asked since the main one has been down, but it can be done. I just need the address and a yes/no from the current team.

now that is funny    yeah 0 problems, nice design stable blockchain working pools

my dilemma you see is that I have one set of hardware and so many coins (I am speaking here for thousands like me for sure), so I scan for coins that can increase in value over time believe you can

if you get in at the bottom you are bound to have more good luck 

I couldn't agree more. lets be as open as we can.

mined good chunk of karma and holding, it actually brings good luck kidding you not

Alphi, it's in our interest to make it as easy and secure as possible for everyone in the world to use Karma and create products and services for and/or with Karma without being forced to pay any royalities to an "owner" company / organisation. This is the only way to be interesting for a potential investor. We will set up such a letter and publish it on our homepage. It's easy to find out that - in addition to our own local company - I'm working for a NYSE listed wordwide billion dollar software company as a Legal Counsel and I cannot afford to speard lies or bullshit around the internet. But what I can do is present good ideas to the senior management should we manage to make the turnaround here.

I agree with you there. Pretty much everything Karma has could be run from one server (except maybe lil)

if you are willing to provide an open letter to the community and give a commitment that you will not sue anyone who uses the Karma trademarks without license then at least that issue of control can be put to rest.
Just like you, I don't want to be building products and services and then have someone try to sue me because I used a trademark (or logo) that was created by the community and for the community.

You have put your money where your mouth is and invested in the coin already... this will go a long way towards gaining community confidence in your proposal.

I can only speak for myself.. but I like to make a lot of noise to protect those people who may not have voice lol.

I am more than happy to work with anyone who wants to further the growth of this community.

I went throught all you replies and first of all I want to make sure to avoid any misunderstandings: We do not want to own Karma or any parts of. We just consider it to be a bad idea to split it into small pieces and give it to some anonymous voluntary individuals so that important stuff can be shot down because somebody couldn't afford to pay a 5$ bill. That's why we understand us as the "godfathers" of Karma and we don't want to create any products / services for Karma and invest money and risk our reputation towards existing and potential partners as long as Karma itself can dissapear at any time just because a "kid" lost interest in Karma and decides to shoot something down.

So let's be clear: People need security, reliability and stability. We would legally oblige ourselves to keep everything existing running and online at our costs and should any of the products made availabe to us generate a profit, it would be used only to cover the costs and constitute reserves. Should we not keep our promises: anyone could sue our company, the competent court would be District Court Hochdorf

http://www.gerichte.lu.ch/index/organisation/o_bezirksgerichte/o_bz_ho_bezirksrichter.htm

We were with Karma since the very beginning and we kept running at least 200 mHash of our asics during the Scrypt phase, in between we were almost the only miner. We wouldn't propose such an aproach if we wouldn't consider that the taken course could probably mean the kiss of death for Karma.

I understand the concerns but to be honest, Karma's now worth almost nothing and so are the related products and websites and from my viewpoint, the latest dumps must have been executed by the inner circle. Others did sell; we did not even a single Karma and we can prove it.

We will contact Kosmost to hear his standpoint on that.

Btw: feel free to drop us a message here or in skype (pekomajstor) or have a talk. We're ready to answer any questions. André is online with "scryptminerch".

yeah with any new website you will always have to find people willing to pay for it and keep it running.. thats why I am more interested in blockchain based solutions. we cant really ditch bitcointalk completely simply because it is the port of call for all new community members. trello is ok for organizing work groups but I think announcements should still be made here..

I think you missed my point about not wanting to be associated with Karmashares.. I wont join a website that has Karmashares in its name and I wouldn't expect anyone else to either. Unfortunately when Kosmost took Karmashares and gave himself complete and absolute control over it,  that is when I completely lost interest in that project.

alphi.

you are correct that we are scattered. Believe me man. As i been fighting to keep karma going. This thread here is poisonous. This is the main source of traders. they come here for that sweet or bitter news to trade off. tthe moment we got the new help offer price jumped 10 litoshi and all the sell walls went down. look at 39 litoshi and up...  I saw the mintpal tab blink. i check it and saw the spike. was wondering that the deal was. then i came and read the post of second offer. Everything that is said here is used to trade for profit. So of course there will be tons of angry investors coming here playing the blaming game. they will never let us have healthy convos.

We knew we had to move out of here. The final place was suppose to be Karma forum but i dont know what its fate will be now. That is why Trello was chosen. Unfortunately , we need a place to be more organized.

as for karma share. It takes two minutes to sign up for it and a day or two to get used to it. Just like you are used to come here to check on altcoin so will you get used to go there. We need to have it . We can not depend on this thread to be used as go to for question. things get buried fast. For example the block explore that you mention. there has been many post in here about it. but it has been buried. Everything get buried here fast.  Thats why we need forums because it has categories and not every topic in on one thread. it helps thinning out the categories. also topic are harder to get buried giving people more time to see them.

Edit: I was very excited when Jason lunched karmawire.net be cause it was suppose to be focused on karma events and would be an easy source to keep track of.  too bad he could work on it anymore. it was the perfect solution. it would have taken anyone 5 minutes to up to date with karma

My dear friend Alphi, while you and I do not frequently understand one another or agree on all points, you must know that I respect your opinion.

I have no interest in "controlling" the source code -- I do not pretend for a second that I am the "smartest guy in the room" (a reference to the Enron scandal and movie made about it)

I merely want to establish the Trademark rights within the USA for Karma as a crypto currency within the authority of "Strength in Numbers Foundation" such that we may collectively utilize it free and clear for purposes of Internet Reputation. 

If you have not spent anytime looking at the patents or trademarks filed by the likes of Yahoo! then I would encourage you to do so.  If you think I'm a threat to Karma, you have NO IDEA what deep pockets lay waiting to pounce to subvert it for their greedy profits.

We need to find a purpose for this coinbase.  And here is a very unpopular position that I am certain will draw all the early pre and early mine investors out of the woodwork:

We need to do a "reverse-split" of the total shares and crush the potential 92B tokens down to a number that is more sensicial.  For example most studies suggest that there will be 12B people on the planet by 2100.  That is a rational number.

-dvd

I must openly agree with you because it it just and right -- we cannot let a tyranny of the minority choose for the silent majority.  A sample size of 20 is small even for a "small sample size" -- I would not feel right directing development with so few members weighing in!


It does not have to come down to an "either-or" -- I'm not suggesting that it does!  Life is not so simple?

One of my favorite quotes comes from the Canadian rock band "Rush" where in the song "Free Will" singer Geddy Lee sings:

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!"

That means "silence is compliance" - it also means that every decision has three possible outcomes.  Think about it...

I would tentatively propose that the the Swiss firm handle the "for profit" side of Karma while the USA based non-profit focus on the community and development of the blockchain for a purpose viz the "Internet Reputation"

Clearly the Swiss firm has an investment in the coinbase that I'm certain that they would like to monetize -- hopefully not at your expense!

Whereas the the USA non-profit has no financial stake in the coinbase and is thus more pure of motive.

It's a "YES IF" pattern solution!

Would you agree?

-dvd

I agree but the decision to hold voting on the karmashares forums is also the reason why you are getting such a small amount of votes... if people weren't a part of Karmashares before it collapsed they are hardly likely to join the site now.

I am working on an block-chain based technology to further democratize crypto coins that does not involve signing up to yet another website.. but too early yet to give any details.
I agree the way things are done now is not adequate nor representative of the entire community's wishes.


its not that nobody cared it is because there is information scattered across so many different places that it is hard for people (who often hold more than 5 different coins) to check up on every thread at every website. Further scattering information by getting people to sign up to even more websites is not going to help solve this problem.


we have two block explorers.. this is the first I've heard of it. I don't sit on the thread 24 hours a day but at least the important announcements should be made here or in one central location.


yep when people care enough.. even if they have to go out of their way.. they will make the effort lol


yes it is difficult but it is where most of the people go for their information.
this is also why we should probably hold off making any big decisions until we have a proper inclusive decision making process in place.

by big decision I mean, who controls the trademarks and major structural changes to the network like algo changes or change in coin supply etc. everything else, i.e. who controls which websites is really not that big of a deal and can be negotiated directly with Kosmost and other people who control those sites.

I think some people will be angry of Kosmost tries to sell Lil.com and pocket the money for himself but since I was not involved in that project it really is none of my business.. Ultimately the people who should decide the fate of LIL are the people who were directly involved in creating it i.e. Kosmost and whoever helped him to design and code the site.

to be honest with you.. I think what is really going on here is that some entities really want to control the Trademarks, the source code, and LIL.com. If all 3 get given to the same person with complete control and they mess it up then this community will cease to exist.. end of story.. no more rising from the ashes, no more rebuild..

people are only still here because they believed that Karmashares was a community project and community owned. if Karmashares was completely self interested and privately owned then I can guarantee you that most of the community members would have left a long time ago and the only person talking in this forum would be Kosmost and a few trolls... yes I know it looks like that now but a lot of the old guard are still here... and we ARE working on karma related projects.

I have been buying up lots of coins lately and working on my own projects and quite frankly if someone comes along and decides to exclude me from the network either by determining where I can use my coins or telling me that I can no longer use the logos which I helped to create then that will be enough to force me leave the community and not look back.

to be honest all this power struggle and control issues BS is what got us into this mess in the first place.. we should all be able to work together to make Karma a better economy for all of us.. not trying to carve up our own little kingdoms from the remnants of a once great crypto coin.

lets not forget that Karma was once one of the highest volume traded coins on mintpal one of the most successful crypto exchanges... our strength came from our sense of loyalty to the community and not from karmashares (which we all thought was community owned anyways) lets not sell ourselves short and throw the baby out with the bath water.

so to sum up.. generally I do agree with your sentiments and thinking.. I just haven't given up on the community spirit yet..  

Sorry for taking this long.I wanted to give everyone else a read before i posted my opinions



impressive. Great job!  

just like DVD , both you could help Karma community with you skills. If you really love karma as much as all of us i urge you to join trello and telegram so we can chat free from distractions. Also to avoid anyone trying to use this to profit in trades. 10 minutes ofter you made your post. there was a buy spike and 300 mills were remove from sell walls.  BTT here is funny!

i will post here openly this one time and break down your post and ask questions. Then i will wish we continue this conversation away from this thread. I tried to do keep the conversation here it with DVD but every time he responded he got few responses with negative content from others.




I am glad you've decided to get involved now. Better late then never!


Karmashare is scraped. here are services that Kosmost is looking to hand over:

1) explorer.karmacoin.me block explorer (on digitalocean)
2) karmacoin.me website
3) karmacoin.me domain
4) karma forums
5) trademarks
6) checkpointing server (currently hosted in linode.com)
7) seed node

Explorer , website and Domain
Since we spent a lot of times asking services like pools, exchanges, faucets , Coinmarketcap  etc. The block explorer must be in the same place as it is now. Under explorer.karmacoin.me. therefore it is important that we get the website and the domain back online. My point it that they need to redirect back to the same place.
Thank you for offering your help for these but i believe we have some one in mind already and maybe the steps are already being taken. But this person will help us safegurd these services and will not have time to work on them. I will PM you so we can talk and perhaps you can help us up keeping them.

Karma Forums:
i think the same person will take these over. We will be looking to find new admin for these forums. you're more then welcome to help us out.

Trademarks
the trademarks are a critical point. How does a whole community own the trademark? I mean technically there has to be an "owner" so this still need to be resolved. But at this time i personally dont feel comfortable neither you or DVD to have them unless you can legally prove that you are only safe guarding them and they belong to all of us. At this time we do not have any one for this.

Check point and Seed nodes
I believe these should go all together in the same servers as the first three. We should keep all under one roof. You're more then welcome to help us run these properly as i am sure we will be needing the professional help.

As you can see. We just want to get the services back up online as soon as possible. We appriciate all the offers from anyone but have to be very caution on who has full access to them. Will we get hurt if some one take them over and abuses the power? no we will just build new ones and hopefully the community will use the new ones. So they are not critical(except trademarks). But tons of effort was put on those and it will be easier to continue from them.



Perica. i am glad to see you showing interest and willing to help. You both seem to have some good skills that Karma can use at this moment. As mentioned to DVD you are urged to implement karma in you project. Pm me so i can get you on trello and telegram so we can talk. i got so many question and its hard to have them here.

One question i do want to ask here:

Do you think you and your partner will still want to collaborate and implement karma in your plans even if you are not chosen as the candidate to control the services kosmost is looking to hand out? or you will only help if you get  total control?
 
To me it seems like you want to start implementing Karma and since we need help your willing to offer help by taking over of them. help me out understand this better.

Cheers

Who

I'm really glad about how things seems to be developing at the moment. This might be a rough ride, but if we group up we can make this possible. Now, I know that as a  translator I can't do very much, nor even promoting in light of the recent events, but hey, i just wanted to say that you guys have a lot of silent supporters that sometimes can't really be very active.  I understand every point of view, and as the chinese story tells, you all have the reason!
Here comes, indeed, the group hug

^^^ this goes with out saying in general. It is the community who decides the overall vibe. But the question is who are these people who make this community? 

Some one need to have control of the services access. Source code github account, reddit mods, facebook admins , twitter accounts , website admins, etc. these are all services that do have to have some kind of "authoritarian" control. While Karma is open source, its source code does need to be in the hands of trusted party. Like an email. there needs one person to open them first and then this person shares the info with selective few. These few people safe guard the safety of current services. From these basic steps we already see a special "class" of people. Therefore there needs to be some kind of different groups.

Especially with our community here. Since we are made most of miners and investors, we are more then likely to go in circles when we have to decide something. Even dogecoin, the "nicest" community finally realized that they can not get anywhere fast while the community goes around in circles instead of finding a fast solution. After being idle for over 3 months they decided to create a special group that focuses on making decisions. It took them less then a months to come up with AuxPOW. Something that they wanted to do ever since they got the idea from Charley Lee of litecoin. They declined litecoin offer and wanted to do it their own way. Before they create the group and tried to get the community choose , they were met with a community who spend time speculating against it or for it. Dogeteam went in circles because they tried to get all of the shibes on board. After wasting a long time and seeing their hasharate drop they decided its not possible to wait for all community to be %100 on it.

Being here with Karma for more then 7 months  i can tell you that it will be inevitable for such groups to form.This community will turn into two groups. One that does nothing but talk and the other who are active and willing to participate. Eventually the second group will become the ones who call the shot because they are the only ones with a voice/vote.

For example there has been less then 20 people who have voted between DVD and ROY to take over. I repeat. Important services of Karma have been voted by less then 20 people. I had to personally ask Komost to give us more time as i didnt think enough people have spoken. Say what you want , but technically these 20 are calling the shot on your beloved Karma right now. Eventually it will be those kind of active people who will become the new "karma team"  .... its inevitable.

We have seen it play out before. We needed Karma decision to be made and every time we brought them up here no one cared. Only some active 20 or so karmanians.  Eventually they were the only ones replying and voting but most importantly tried to help by doing tasks that needed to be done.

Here is an other example : Our main explorer went offline for days now. The ones we spend days asking services like Mintpal to use. I only saw a certain few people trying to find solutions to this. this is the kind of response the general community gives us.

here is an example that got a lot more people involved : The motion to remove POC. Not trying to open this can of warms but it was amazing how many prideful karmanians became active to this request. 

Also it is difficult to keep a focused discussions here due to so many people going off topic or trolling. Slowly sites like Trello and telegram and hopefully karma forums will be the main places important question will be asked. And most likely those active group of people will be the only ones sharing their insight and votes. So again it will be inevitable that these certain group will be the one answering and pretty much voting on any decision making solutions.

I have been trying hard to get as many of you on board of those sites so more of you can start getting involved and have your opinion heard.

Again there is an old solution when you're stuck with two kind of groups. That solution is : one party brings in the options and the other chooses the solution. This helps keeping balance between them. If party one creates on option to benefit them then the second party will not choose it. Also the first party will try to create options that the second party will not be able to profit anymore then everyone else.


So it will be invertible that certain "groups" of people will be formed because some solution are timely mater and like any big community it will be hard to wait for everyone decisions. 

greetings Perhan and welcome to the discussion.

I hope you are aware that nobody has exclusive world wide rights over Karma. the Karma "trademarks" were only registered in America and this was a measure only to protect them from abuse by other companies not to exclude anyone from using them.

as for the other "services" and karma related assets.. you are most welcome to negotiate with Kosmost directly.

you are free to use the Karma logos, trademarks, names etc for any purpose you like as long as you do not try to exclude others form using them or use them to cause harm to the community. This has always been the case since the creation of this coin and I hope that everyone will continue to respect this into the future.

I know that some people have a hangup about having to own trademarks because that is the traditional business practice.. but in reality nobody owns the logos of the Bitcoin, Litecoin or the USD and that is what allows every company in the world to use them without hindrance or restriction.

EDIT: There are registered trademarks for Bitcoin, but that was done to stop opportunists from registering and abusing it.

you are more than welcome to build new services features and updates for the Karma network and related software.
Once built, it is the individuals who decide whether to use them or not.. this is a key principle of the free market and of any crypto coin..
All you have to do is make good products and services and people will naturally start using them.

So please do start making good products and services.. the I am sure that community will welcome you. I am also equally sure that nobody will try to sue you or try to hinder your business.

Alphi

My dear friend, I don't want to control Karma...

I want to set it free!

I have no interest in buying and rewarding bad behavior.  I will not enrich others in this manner.

My value is in the idea execution for a Karma that has a purpose closer aligned to its marketing hype ;-)

A promise fulfilled...

Influence sure but ultimately control belongs to the people who own the coins. because the people who own the coins are the people who own Karma and the network. in any network these are the people who decide by consensus which way the network will go.

people assume that Developers make all the decisions but in reality updating your wallet is completely voluntary so a community can reject any changes simply by not updating their wallets.

of course in the situation of a small coin, exchanges have the most power because that's where most of the coins are so they control most of the coins.

I agree with you that nothing stops these people from getting involved except for their own desire to have control first. to those people I would say... if you want control then buy become the largest stakeholder first then you have control.. if not then your idea of control is just an illusion.

Ahhh thanks p4r4m0un7 -- I almost feel a "group hug" coming on - LOL

Please do not misunderstand my seemingly lack of passion for Karma -- I'm not happy with where it is today but I am VERY excited about what it could be, with some fixes AND a sense of purpose and some semblance of accountability.

I'm totally open to the idea of a "community edition" of a purely transactional coin if that's what you guys want to keep doing.  I just do not think that a "miner & investor" centric value proposition is either compelling nor sustainable.

You're going to get tired of me saying this, but the coinbase must solve a problem that consumers readily acknowledge.

There are only so many VEBLEN GOODS in the world -- things that people value and hold because of the name -- even a Rolex watch offers utility.

-dvd