Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11 - page 376. (Read 583123 times)

lets accumulate some good karma such we will be secure in the future. Everything will work out. Lets try to support Kosmost. He is really working so hard for us....

Very few of us are talking about how to add value to Karma.

But, for anyone wondering, it's what I am working on. I'll remain quiet while some of you run around in circles with this.

So, for people who forgot that there are other things in world than PoS  ( ) I am proud to announce you something big.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KarmaTeam/comments/25g5s1/karma_will_participate_to_next_ecofriendly_car/

We are going to participate to the 2015 edition of ''4l Trophy''.

What is it? http://www.4ltrophy.com/cat/presentation-en?lang=en

I will lead this project, we will provide a nice web page for our KARMA car and we will do a big fundraising for our KARMA Trophy Team !
We need to raise between 5000 and 7000$ in the next 8 months. It could be our next KARMAFUND.ME act, what are you thoughts ?

LETS DO IT !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM1dQk9XwBM
More details later.

Very few of us are talking about how to add value to Karma.

But, for anyone wondering, it's what I am working on. I'll remain quiet while some of you run around in circles with this.

nice signature


I do own some NXT too but it has done nothing but lose value since I bought it.. when are you going to make me rich? 

Haven´t heard so much bullshit at all.

POS means rich get richer and POW the opposite. That´s just a lie, and only an idiot would believe it.
You buy mining equipment for way more money than others will invest, and therefore you want to have more money?

And you do something for the money?? Yeah wasting energy and hardware for absolute nothing, and therefore you get incentives??

There is a reason that POW is dying.

***NXT*** launches asset exchange
Countdown on http://www.nxtcommunity.org/

Please switch it NOW.

I agree... PoW is essentially: You do some work you get coins. PoS is essentially: you do nothing, if you have coins you get more coins.

and this is why I have such a fundamental problem with PoS because it guarantees that people will get something for nothing.
Not only does that break the laws of economics but it also breaks the laws of physics.

to put it another way in laymans terms.. Quite simply PoS is the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Landowners reaping all the rewards while the peasants  who work the land get very little.

that system of serfdom was flawed in Medieval times and it is just as flawed today.
This is why I have a philosophical problem with PoS.

And no that doesn't make me a communist just because I believe that people should be rewarded fairly and equaly for their work. PoW is exactly how a free market system should work. If you subscribe to free market principles then you should believe that everyone has a free and equal chance to generate wealth purely on the basis of how much work they are able to do and how efficiently they can do it. this is the Proof of work system.

the problem with today generation is (and I'm not even that old), that they have a sense of entitlement that everything should be handed to them based on who got there first. this is PoS which I like to call POS.   "My grand daddy found this land and stole it from Injuns so everything you dig up on this land is MINE..." lolz



this also goes back to free market principles and creating a level playing field for all participants, be they miners, traders or users.
the reason why I bring up the question of legality here is because most of us (and I do acknowledge not all of us) live within the Anglo Sphere or what some people might call "The West" and by living where we do, most of us unfortunately are forced to abide by rules and laws which are mostly dictated by the USA. (you can read up on how the US uses trade pacts to push their laws onto other countries, but that's how it is)

with that being said.. I cant comment on Nautiluscoin because I don't know about it.. but I can say this much.
Funds themselves aren't illegal. It is how they are used that determines whether they are legal or not. Holding Karma the way Karma Shares does and investing it into projects to build products and services which grow the Karma economy clearly is not illegal. However if someone at KarmaShares for example was using those funds to trade on open markets and try and game the system by selling when he puts out fake positive news and then buying when he puts out fake negative news then he could potentially get himself into some very serious legal problems.. (and i'm not saying that would happen this is just an example)

Fake buy walls and sell walls are essentially the same thing as putting out fake news and that's what makes them illegal

you can read more about market manipulation here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/manipulation.asp

and yes I know people may argue that these rules only govern SEC registered securities.. but no they actually don't.
The SEC covers both Securities and Investments. Investments being anything that people put their money into in the hopes of getting a financial return. So it doesn't matter whether its Cryptocoins, trading cards, or apple trees, if people put hard earned money into a scheme like Karma expecting to get some kind of return and then end up losing a bunch of it due to the being ripped off in some way.. then the SEC can and probably will get involved.

(It's the SEC in the USA but every country in the Anglo-sphere I mentioned has similar governing bodies. Also the US authorities get involved wherever enough US citizens have been ripped off regardless of what country the investment scheme is located in)

Anyways sorry for the long post I might read up on nautilus later on and see what they are actually doing before I comment more as Market stabilization is not the same thing as Price Manipulation/Fixing. I usually just post the kind of advisories that I do because I've been investing for many years and I don't want to see people going to jail for doing stupid things and thinking that they are operating in a legal grey area outside the laws of their country.


It think with Karma we need to be more ethical and keep our noses cleaner than most..  because without this unique selling point and community there really is little difference between Karma and all the other Me2 litecoin clones out there.

To be clear then - Are you saying that the POS transition to occur at a certain block, on an estimated day, is infact subject to your approval when that time comes depending on the price?

sure feel free to chime in...

nobody is burying their head in the sand regarding security... PoS is not more secure than PoW. All you are doing is swapping one problem (centralized workers ) for another (centralized coin supply) and then introducing a whole bunch of other technical problems while you transition from PoW to PoS...

take a coin like NXT or Ripple for example... if one of the founders of those coins had a gun put to their head or their computer hacked for the keys to their wallet what do you think that would do to the network?

Remember when Gox collapsed and a whole bunch of coins got stolen? mt gox lost 400,000 bitcoins.. that's out of about 11 million or so total coins..
so potentially 3.6% of the entire coins in circulation got stolen.. as a direct result of that, the price of Bitcon dropped 23% which wiped billions of dollars off the Bitcoin Market cap.
the price still has not recovered...

now the reason I am boring you with statistics.. is the simple fact that PoS encourages centralization of coin supply and slows down distribution.

could you imagine if Ripple or NXT founder wallets got hacked and even 50% of their coins got stolen.. that kind of event would destroy the coins economy completely.
and don't say that it couldn't happen.. because it could.. no matter how sophisticated you make security systems and how many layers you put on top of them any wallet, or persons controlling the wallet, can be compromised and by putting control of the coin supply into fewer hands all you are doing is increasing the honey pot for thieves, hackers or rogue agencies/governments.

Granted switching Karma to PoS is not quite as centralized as coins that started their life as PoS... so the effects would not be so bad in the case of Karma

In some ways Karma Shares is a lot like PoS while keeping the PoW part open so that coins can be still be generated even if the Karma Shares holdings are stolen or destroyed.
This threat alone is the reason why I'm glad that KarmaShares doesn't soak up more of the coin supply... because while people may trust Kosmost... nobody can trust what he might do if someone put a gun to his head etc...

Now when you compare that kind of risk to either a 51% attack which only allows a double spend for a few blocks.. or a time-warp attack which only allows attackers to spend newly mined coins for a few hours.. Centralized coin supply is by far the greater risk to both the trust in the network AND its future longevity.

the other thing to consider also is the problems it will cause with exchanges... Hard forks can and do result in transactions and coins being lost especially with such a large portion of Karma being held on exchanges.

Anways... just food for thought to those who think PoS is more secure...

I personally would like to see merge mining or a change to the proof of work happen with PoS being last on my list....

Proof of coin is pretty much PoS anyways just without structural changes to the Karma network and codebase, so I don't think doing essentially the same thing twice is going to help the coin price in any way or make it more secure in the long run.

#1 is foolish
#2 is foolish
#3 makes sense

Ok, let us defend PoS  for a change :
PoW: I have to buy mining equipment to mine a coin, thereby securing the network
PoS: I can just buy the coins directly and secure the network by keeping my wallet open (note that a short minting time will be needed to make people keep their wallets open)

Buying mining equipment is definitely more diverse, you can mine different coins as you please. PoS has the advantage of being energy efficient, safer (no need to pool for instance) and cheaper. Both of them give a reward for securing the network, with PoS being a clear winner in this department in terms of network security. PoW being more fair or giving a better distribution is nonsense in our case when the PoW has been going on for 5 months, in the case of a shift to PoS in July.

Why do people keep burying their head in the sand when our network security is at stake? Are you guys really so naïve to think attacks and blackmailing won’t happen? By the end of June asics will be here and our block reward will be down to 35k. Our network hashrate will drop to 100-150 and anyone with for example a knc titan will act like a sword of Damocles dangling over our Karma network.
A shift to a different algorithm would just postpone a decision. Merged mining could be a long-term solution and so can PoS. I personally would go for a shift to PoS, but I would applaud a merged mining solution as well. I don’t give a ^%$$ about a higher price right now, our network and all the great projects are depending on decisive action. People are worried and careful when discussing a change, and rightfully so. I’m much more worried about not changing. Our price could soar and asics could be a blessing for our network but I’m hoping we will not take that chance.  

Again.. my position and the position of our entire team (from what I can tell)

#1 is foolish
#2 is foolish
#3 makes sense

It would seem that some (outspoken) people see us doing #3 and think "Oh.. they don't want to do it. They don't want to decide now"

but that's missing the point.

I posted that while you were writing your post above explaining more clearly your position - Since seeing that I immediately edited the post to remove the section you quoted as is the right thing to do.

I have supported both from the beginning. Please refer to my history

With that being said, I do not support a move to anything that has not been well-researched.

You mistake my not wanting to rush into something with not wanting to do it at all. And that is missing the point.

There are 3 teams, if you will:

1) PoW is better, leave it alone!
2) PoS is better, do it now!
3) PoS could be better, let's research it more and see how it would benefit our security and economy

Yes, I have shot down arguments for #2. But my position is #3 (obviously)

It would be more productive to work together on this, wouldn't you agree?