Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11 - page 377. (Read 583123 times)

I have supported both from the beginning. Please refer to my history

With that being said, I do not support a move to anything that has not been well-researched.

You mistake my not wanting to rush into something with not wanting to do it at all. And that is missing the point.

There are 3 arguments, if you will:

1) PoW is better, leave it alone!
2) PoS is better, do it now!
3) PoS could be better, let's research it more and see how it would benefit our security and economy

Yes, I have shot down arguments for #2. But my position is #3 (obviously). And #1 is foolish, too.

Would you like to share how you think the announcement could have been made? (Besides the obvious, "We're moving to PoS!")

Let's work together on this. It's the only way to move forward.

Both Minting and Mining have the same purpose and effect - to secure the block chain and distribute new coins in exchange for this service.

"print more money i.e. steal it from other people" - Ok, now you are talking in pure hyperbole. Mining introduces new coins in just the same way as minting does - neither are stealing from anyone, why you made that statement I have no idea.

Mining - In order to mine you require specialist hardware that costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars (depending on how much you want to mine), those with the fiat to invest in hardware are able to mine the most coins and end up dumping large chunks to pay for electricity. Those with SCRYPT asics can hit Karma and mine hundreds of millions and dump them on the exchanges and earn a tidy profit no matter how low they crash the price. The effect of the SCRYPT asic reality is that as demand for KARMA goes up, the price will be pushed down. There is no overwhelming buy support to counter this at present and there sure as well wont be any when the asic miners start hitting us.

Minting - In order to mint new coins you must purchase coins from the exchanges. You can buy as many or as few as you like. Those with fiat to invest in buying coins from the marketplace are able to a mint a fixed percentage of their untouched stake per year - obviously this will result in more coins for those who have invested more BTC into a currency as is the way things should be. Unlike Mining where SCRYPT asic users can mine hundreds of millions of coins and then dump them at little expense, minting FORCES them to either NOT dump their coins if they want to earn any interest, or buy up more coins on the market which forces the price up as any increase in demand for a product should.

There are three major benefits that minting has over the current POW:

1. You dont need to spend absurd amounts of electricity mining coins that are barely profitable (karma is one of those if you take into account the     electricity usage of most GPUs)

2. You don't need to dump your coins to recoup the money spent on electricity.

3. There is a clear incentive to take your coins of the exchange and hold them in your wallet.


Just as certain people call those of us who support POS "greedy" I call you people bending over backwards to hold onto the antiquated POW "greedy" - It's a reasonable assumption that the most vocal of POW supporters are those operating large GPU or ASIC mining rigs who want to keep riding the gravy train because if you people were truly invested in KARMA and holding what you would deem as "enough" KARMA you would not be advocating for a distribution method that, with the introduction of SCRYPT asics, will only serve to drive the price further down.

Each has its merits, to be sure. But I don't recall anyone mentioning that in Peercoin's whitepaper it was said that PoS makes their network less secure in some ways.

Regardless, you guys can debate this all you want I'm focused on adding actual value to Karma and Karmashares right now and have nothing else to say on it until there is something productive to say. I'm am neither pro-PoS nor pro-PoW. We are a community and team of many. But it does bother me to read the pro-PoS stance that does not allow for any other way.

We talk about technical innovation but no one has mentioned creating a variable PoS system that gives interest based on how many nodes are needed. Technical "innovation" does not mean riding a shiny new toy off the cliff, either.

If the PoW folks are saying that PoS is interesting and further research is needed then it sounds much more reasonable than people saying "PoS is the way to go! A shift to PoS worked for some other unknown coin that has been around for 2 weeks and has no economy! Implement it now!"

Perhaps an open mind is best. Especially when we are talking about things that are untested for any good length of time as far as security or economy goes. (What security would there be with PoS if the code has bugs or unforeseen effects? How many people would keep their wallets open if such problems occur, and the price drops into the abyss because of it?)

It is our responsibility to make sure that the coin is secure by its network and economy. Neither will be ignored for the other. Both can be healthy, and surely we are discovering the path to great health in both ways.

It can also be considered that a coin with a healthy economy will also have a secure network. But a coin with a secure network does not imply a healthy economy (or an economy at all).

Cryptocurrency does not dictate patience. But surely we can choose to not be foolish and make impulse moves.

Ok, let us defend PoS  for a change :
PoW: I have to buy mining equipment to mine a coin, thereby securing the network
PoS: I can just buy the coins directly and secure the network by keeping my wallet open (note that a short minting time will be needed to make people keep their wallets open)

Buying mining equipment is definitely more diverse, you can mine different coins as you please. PoS has the advantage of being energy efficient, safer (no need to pool for instance) and cheaper. Both of them give a reward for securing the network, with PoS being a clear winner in this department in terms of network security. PoW being more fair or giving a better distribution is nonsense in our case when the PoW has been going on for 5 months, in the case of a shift to PoS in July.

Why do people keep burying their head in the sand when our network security is at stake? Are you guys really so naïve to think attacks and blackmailing won’t happen? By the end of June asics will be here and our block reward will be down to 35k. Our network hashrate will drop to 100-150 and anyone with for example a knc titan will act like a sword of Damocles dangling over our Karma network.
A shift to a different algorithm would just postpone a decision. Merged mining could be a long-term solution and so can PoS. I personally would go for a shift to PoS, but I would applaud a merged mining solution as well. I don’t give a ^%$$ about a higher price right now, our network and all the great projects are depending on decisive action. People are worried and careful when discussing a change, and rightfully so. I’m much more worried about not changing. Our price could soar and asics could be a blessing for our network but I’m hoping we will not take that chance. 

Any Linux user that had been experiencing problems before, please note that I just uploaded some fixes to http://karmacoin.me/wallets/linux-wallet

Karms, because we are ''officially'' karms.

Nice illustration.

However, PoS cannot be compared with interest-based systems. Banks pay you interest to use your money as they see fit.

PoS would be more of a bounty for securing the network. Unlike a bank, we would be unable to use the coins that a user "deposits".

Agreed. It's one of the main reasons I do not hold shares of Karmashares (other than what I have purchased from those who wanted to return their coins. But this will be donated to Karmafund if accountancy will allow it).

because in order to PAY interest for no work being done they have to print more money i.e. steal it from other people.
This is called inflation.

here's a simple example for you..


I have 100 coins.. I implement my new PoS system. It generates 10% interest every year.

In the first year I have 110 coins.. YAY awesome, GO ME!

In that same year no work is done so the economy doesn't grow.

So after one year I have 110 coins but because the size of the economy didn't grow.. my 110 coins are only worth 100 original coins.

OK so I want to grow my economy so I give 10 coins to my mate Jimmy..

We wait one more year...
I get another 10 coins so now I am 110 coins again.

Jimmy gets 1 coin because he only had 10 coins..

Yay im rich I did nothing... awesome!.

Jimmy looks at his 1 measly coin interest and then thinks... "He gets more coins because he got there first and now if I want more coins I have to buy them from him...." screw that...

Jimmy leaves and dumps his 11 coins in the toilet.

I have 110 coins but now the spending power is less than the original 100 coins because Jimmy left and my economy is shrinking..


THE END.....

and the moral of this story is...... Read up on Inflation and Hyper Inflation and see how it has destroyed many nations/kingdoms/economies in the past...

PoS = POS.

I agree... PoW is essentially: You do some work you get coins. PoS is essentially: you do nothing, if you have coins you get more coins.

and this is why I have such a fundamental problem with PoS because it guarantees that people will get something for nothing.
Not only does that break the laws of economics but it also breaks the laws of physics.

to put it another way in laymans terms.. Quite simply PoS is the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Landowners reaping all the rewards while the peasants  who work the land get very little.

that system of serfdom was flawed in Medieval times and it is just as flawed today.
This is why I have a philosophical problem with PoS.

And no that doesn't make me a communist just because I believe that people should be rewarded fairly and equaly for their work. PoW is exactly how a free market system should work. If you subscribe to free market principles then you should believe that everyone has a free and equal chance to generate wealth purely on the basis of how much work they are able to do and how efficiently they can do it. this is the Proof of work system.

the problem with today generation is (and I'm not even that old), that they have a sense of entitlement that everything should be handed to them based on who got there first. this is PoS which I like to call POS.   "My grand daddy found this land and stole it from Injuns so everything you dig up on this land is MINE..." lolz



this also goes back to free market principles and creating a level playing field for all participants, be they miners, traders or users.
the reason why I bring up the question of legality here is because most of us (and I do acknowledge not all of us) live within the Anglo Sphere or what some people might call "The West" and by living where we do, most of us unfortunately are forced to abide by rules and laws which are mostly dictated by the USA. (you can read up on how the US uses trade pacts to push their laws onto other countries, but that's how it is)

with that being said.. I cant comment on Nautiluscoin because I don't know about it.. but I can say this much.
Funds themselves aren't illegal. It is how they are used that determines whether they are legal or not. Holding Karma the way Karma Shares does and investing it into projects to build products and services which grow the Karma economy clearly is not illegal. However if someone at KarmaShares for example was using those funds to trade on open markets and try and game the system by selling when he puts out fake positive news and then buying when he puts out fake negative news then he could potentially get himself into some very serious legal problems.. (and i'm not saying that would happen this is just an example)

Fake buy walls and sell walls are essentially the same thing as putting out fake news and that's what makes them illegal

you can read more about market manipulation here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/manipulation.asp

and yes I know people may argue that these rules only govern SEC registered securities.. but no they actually don't.
The SEC covers both Securities and Investments. Investments being anything that people put their money into in the hopes of getting a financial return. So it doesn't matter whether its Cryptocoins, trading cards, or apple trees, if people put hard earned money into a scheme like Karma expecting to get some kind of return and then end up losing a bunch of it due to the being ripped off in some way.. then the SEC can and probably will get involved.

(It's the SEC in the USA but every country in the Anglo-sphere I mentioned has similar governing bodies. Also the US authorities get involved wherever enough US citizens have been ripped off regardless of what country the investment scheme is located in)

Anyways sorry for the long post I might read up on nautilus later on and see what they are actually doing before I comment more as Market stabilization is not the same thing as Price Manipulation/Fixing. I usually just post the kind of advisories that I do because I've been investing for many years and I don't want to see people going to jail for doing stupid things and thinking that they are operating in a legal grey area outside the laws of their country.


It think with Karma we need to be more ethical and keep our noses cleaner than most..  because without this unique selling point and community there really is little difference between Karma and all the other Me2 litecoin clones out there.

That is EXACTLY how PANDA came about haha Sevoque and the others recruited Wolong to market manipulate the coin to keep it goijng up, they gave him 15% of all the coins that would ever exist premined and let him have at it - Before you know he dumps the premine to 1 Satoshi and scams us all. Stay well away from anything even remotely similar. Its one thing to publically try and pump up a coin, its another to do it all behind closed doors under the guise of being a 'financial expert' as would be the case with Nautiluscoin.

just leaving this here.. a project that shares ownership with another entity would not be a Karmashares project.

Karmashares would own each project 100%

Profits would go to Karmashares to be distributed to owners (members) of the LLC

(Projects themselves would not distribute profits.)

It's not the only reason, but certainly the most popular one. The IMO most important and legitimate reason (network security) could also be achieved in different ways (algo-switch, merged-mining). I've said it before and will do so again. PoS is a fundamentally different paradigm to PoW. It is currently en vogue among the get rich quick kids, but ´that's just the current trend, like country coins before it. PoS is less of a currency, but more of a collectible. Less real people, more speculators. Not very Karma IMO. But I get the feeling we'll either switch to PoS or stay as we are.

OT: Alphi, as you have argued several times against any sort of price manipulation, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Nautiluscoin. Seems a big part of their plan is a fund to stabilize the market value and the coin is founded by a financial expert with lots of experience in the field. Do you also think their plan is illegal?

I mean you could think of different degrees of benefits for the Karma comunity. E.g. Kosmost is giving everything. The first three projects will not even be paid by Karmashares but out of his own pocket. Not everybody has to do this though. You could do essentially two things:

1. allways buy Karmashares also with the btc payouts from quarterly profits. Just like a public thing. Nobody would "own" those shares....

2. buy Karmashares with the fees and keep the btc payouts from quarterly profits yourself. Also good, better than selling them on the exchange...

To clarify this to make sure I understand correctly, what you're asking is to change from:

(Now): fees are in Karmacoin and can be sold for BTC

to

(New): fees are converted to Karmashares, which then give dividends to the pool owner

Right? Such that the owner still gets BTC, just as part of the Karmashare dividends instead of having to liquidate the Karmacoins.

Fees can be higher if this a non-profit thing for the owner. If the owner keeps a % for himself, he must be transparant with this. However, I am sure that generosity will result in good Karma rewards

that is the ONLY reason PoS is being pushed at all,  because greedy impatient people don't want to wait for real growth.

they just want the price to go back up so they can dump their coins and not feel so bad about their failed investment decisions.

the price has stabilized.. messing with the coins core code now would only be asking for more problems and volatility.

It's being voted on right now and wouldn't happen for a while anyways. I do hope it ends up going through though. I just don't like it being based on the value of the coin (the decision I mean).

Selecao: Brazil. The passion summer