[ANN][MOTO] Motocoin - page 62. | Bitcointalksearch.org

wilppuse

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Quote from: Acidyo on June 11, 2014, 05:02:15 PM

Quote from: HunterMinerCrafter on June 11, 2014, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Acidyo on June 11, 2014, 04:24:41 PM

Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. Cheesy

I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it.

This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.)

What simple games are out there that are cheat-proof? Do any of those exist?

I would guess GO, if startup scenario is randomised. Humans are still generally better than computers at it.

Acidyo

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Will Bitcoin Rise Again to $60,000?

Quote from: HunterMinerCrafter on June 11, 2014, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Acidyo on June 11, 2014, 04:24:41 PM

Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. Cheesy

I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it.

This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.)

What simple games are out there that are cheat-proof? Do any of those exist?

wilppuse

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Activity: 11

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Quote from: HunterMinerCrafter on June 11, 2014, 04:56:43 PM

Quote from: wilppuse on June 11, 2014, 04:51:36 PM

Im just throwing stuff in the wind here.. but what if there would be a way to extrapolate information from each block and with that adding slight changes to game physics? like each level gravity could fluctuate between 0.9994-1.0006? Impossible?

Sure, this is possible, but what would it accomplish?

It would be harder to add random set of rules to bots code each level? Or would it be just easy for them to analyze slightly randomized game physics as it is to anlalyze level layout as it is?

EDIT: or lets say random gravity fluctuation would accur mid-level, when there is 1/2 time left so it would hinder bots pathfinding?

HunterMinerCrafter

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Activity: 434

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Quote from: wilppuse on June 11, 2014, 04:51:36 PM

Im just throwing stuff in the wind here.. but what if there would be a way to extrapolate information from each block and with that adding slight changes to game physics? like each level gravity could fluctuate between 0.9994-1.0006? Impossible?

Sure, this is possible, but what would it accomplish?

wilppuse

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Activity: 11

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Im just throwing stuff in the wind here.. but what if there would be a way to extrapolate information from each block and with that adding slight changes to game physics? like each level gravity could fluctuate between 0.9994-1.0006? Impossible?

HunterMinerCrafter

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: minim1ner on June 11, 2014, 04:23:19 PM

Quote

What do you mean?

I mean that there is not really big crowd of people with bots for now.

Ah, yes. From what I can tell your bots and my bots together make up the bulk of the hash rate.... I'm actually working on something similar to the graphs WilliamLie produced earlier, but with points colored by which bot is which.

Quote

Why on earth would you sell discounted coins to the devs to replace the coins they sold themselves??? It is not like they didn't get btc for their coins...

Coin needs support form devs, and if they made a mistake selling all coins in panic, comunity may restore part of this loss. Or maybe we could promote another bounties for coin improvement, as we definately need it.

Devs should support their coin whether they panic sold their stake or not. The community paying them for their mistake seems silly to me, particularly considering they already "took" the remaining bounty and giveaway coins from that community.

I'm all for the idea of offering up bounties to the community at large, however. Whatever gets the problems fixed fastest, we should do that. (We can't really know what that is, though, until the devs state their intents.)

HunterMinerCrafter

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: Acidyo on June 11, 2014, 04:24:41 PM

Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. Cheesy

I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it.

This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.)

Acidyo

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 500

Will Bitcoin Rise Again to $60,000?

Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. Cheesy

minim1ner

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Activity: 20

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Quote

What do you mean?

I mean that there is not really big crowd of people with bots for now.

Quote

Why on earth would you sell discounted coins to the devs to replace the coins they sold themselves??? It is not like they didn't get btc for their coins...

Coin needs support form devs, and if they made a mistake selling all coins in panic, comunity may restore part of this loss. Or maybe we could promote another bounties for coin improvement, as we definately need it.

HunterMinerCrafter

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: minim1ner on June 11, 2014, 01:57:50 PM

I am mining almost alone now.

What do you mean?

Quote

There is not really much of coins I've got, just 70k. If you solve this bot issue, I will sell most coins I've mined to devs for price that they dumped, and hope other guys will support me.

Why on earth would you sell discounted coins to the devs to replace the coins they sold themselves??? It is not like they didn't get btc for their coins...

minim1ner

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Activity: 20

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Quote

There are lots of reasons to send money to yourself. Not the least of which, in this context, would be to simply cast doubt as to whether or not you still held it. We know that the origination address was owned by the dev, but we can't say yet for certain who owns the MoLn address. (Perhaps c-cex could state if it is/isn't one of theirs?)

If it were a c-cex address I'd expect to see the coins move again at least once, to be consolidated into their backend wallets and/or portioned between hot/cold wallets. It is unusual for coins sent to an exchange to sit indefinitely at their deposit address.

Any way I think that making this coin bot resistant is pretty difficult task and it deserves bounty whether from devs, and in case if devs have no more coins, then from community.

HunterMinerCrafter

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Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: minim1ner on June 11, 2014, 02:35:45 PM

Quote

If devs sold all of their coins how can you explain this http://moto-explorer.fvds.ru/address.php?address=MoLnCJGJXBGLkPjFfJ9sRXVv7nEvwwEuZck. There is one transaction from address, which received 150k in #0 block http://moto-explorer.fvds.ru/transaction.php?transaction=a05b6e6a99468edf9f4b3833b63857e686e2d55de3239cd3e05a783a2defacb8. Only one transaction for this address, and it is 150k. It seems transaction to yourself. There is something unclear here...

There is no reason to send money to yourself, more likely it is c-cex address

There are lots of reasons to send money to yourself. Not the least of which, in this context, would be to simply cast doubt as to whether or not you still held it. We know that the origination address was owned by the dev, but we can't say yet for certain who owns the MoLn address. (Perhaps c-cex could state if it is/isn't one of theirs?)

If it were a c-cex address I'd expect to see the coins move again at least once, to be consolidated into their backend wallets and/or portioned between hot/cold wallets. It is unusual for coins sent to an exchange to sit indefinitely at their deposit address.

minim1ner

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Activity: 20

Merit: 0

Quote

If devs sold all of their coins how can you explain this http://moto-explorer.fvds.ru/address.php?address=MoLnCJGJXBGLkPjFfJ9sRXVv7nEvwwEuZck. There is one transaction from address, which received 150k in #0 block http://moto-explorer.fvds.ru/transaction.php?transaction=a05b6e6a99468edf9f4b3833b63857e686e2d55de3239cd3e05a783a2defacb8. Only one transaction for this address, and it is 150k. It seems transaction to yourself. There is something unclear here...

There is no reason to send money to yourself, more likely it is c-cex address

coelto

newbie

Activity: 15

Merit: 0

If devs sold all of their coins how can you explain this http://moto-explorer.fvds.ru/address.php?address=MoLnCJGJXBGLkPjFfJ9sRXVv7nEvwwEuZck. There is one transaction from address, which received 150k in #0 block http://moto-explorer.fvds.ru/transaction.php?transaction=a05b6e6a99468edf9f4b3833b63857e686e2d55de3239cd3e05a783a2defacb8. Only one transaction for this address, and it is 150k. It seems transaction to yourself. There is something unclear here...

HunterMinerCrafter

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: DeepCryptoanalist3 on June 11, 2014, 01:35:10 PM

But something should be done. While we a talking bot owners are mining. I am not very satisfied with the fact that we discussing the ways how to save the coin while bots are mining. It appears that we are now working to protect their wealth. This is not a normal situation.

Ironically, I very much agree!! This is why I'm pressing our friend Bill to at least communicate to us their intents. We at least need an immediate resolution to the difficulty-warp attack. Multiple approaches to mitigation of this vector have been proposed, discussed, and even mostly agreed upon. (Does anyone still *not* think that we should constrain timestamp and return to a traditional difficulty retarget with an upward pressure to ensure blocks can eventually be mined? (regardless of the timestamp bias arguments...)) Why we're sitting here arguing over my "N-heads" patch instead of rushing out a hotfix and hard fork for what is unquestionably the greatest risk to this coin is beyond me.

I just ran some quick numbers on what it would cost me, in terms of both time and energy spend, to fork the network back to block 1. You don't even want to know the results. Suffice to say that this is a critical issue and everything else should come second to it!

HunterMinerCrafter

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: DeepCryptoanalist3 on June 11, 2014, 01:31:16 PM

On long term sha512 hash function is breakable. Enlarging map in 2 4 finally ten times will make generation of easy maps is not possible. The complexity of finding an easy map shall be bigger than enumerating 2^128.

But keep telling that this is not viable. Yep...

You mistook me. I mean that increasing map size will only impact the current generation of bots, which "lean" very heavily on map search. While increasing map size may decrease effectiveness of the naive bots, which are currently "winning," it would do basically nothing to deter bots that learn to traverse a single map. (These "smart" bots are present already but don't currently represent much of hash rate because "why bother?") Even if you made one shared global-map-per-block the map could be 80x80 or 8000x8000 and the bots will still outperform humans by proportionally the same amount.

minim1ner

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Activity: 20

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Quote

But something should be done. While we a talking bot owners are mining. I am not very satisfied with the fact that we discussing the ways how to save the coin while bots are mining. It appears that we are now working to protect their wealth. This is not a normal situation.

I am mining almost alone now. There is not really much of coins I've got, just 70k. If you solve this bot issue, I will sell most coins I've mined to devs for price that they dumped, and hope other guys will support me.

DeepCryptoanalist3

member

Activity: 81

Merit: 10

Quote from: WilliamLie2 on June 11, 2014, 12:33:29 PM

I'm not working on anything. Many proposals (including your proposal that we were discussing here) are flawed because people don't understand how it works.
Here are some good proposals that are at least possible but it is not clear how well will they protect us from bots:
1. Increase map size.
2. Add computational difficulty.
3. Add several coins to collect.
4. Change map generation algorithm to prevent fall-thru maps.

But something should be done. While we a talking bot owners are mining. I am not very satisfied with the fact that we discussing the ways how to save the coin while bots are mining. It appears that we are now working to protect their wealth. This is not a normal situation.

DeepCryptoanalist3

member

Activity: 81

Merit: 10

Quote from: HunterMinerCrafter on June 11, 2014, 12:50:03 PM

Quote

Here are some good proposals that are at least possible but it is not clear how well will they protect us from bots:
1. Increase map size.

We've already established that this will cut out the current generation of bots, but will do little/nothing in the long term.

On long term sha512 hash function is breakable. Enlarging map in 2 4 finally ten times will make generation of easy maps is not possible. The complexity of finding an easy map shall be bigger than enumerating 2^128.

But keep telling that this is not viable. Yep...

HunterMinerCrafter

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Fifa Worldcup 2014 game

You know that if you record the phrase "Spamitty spam" and play it backwards, you hear "Maps, eat em up!" Funny, considering how the current bots operate!

Anyway, reported as spam.

Topic: [ANN][MOTO] Motocoin - page 62. (Read 178225 times)