[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 250.

porqupine

full member

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Quote from: davethetrousers on June 20, 2014, 02:27:17 PM

If attacking the NXT chain is really so unfathomably easy as is stated by some dudes, then they should just go ahead and make it big. Cash out some millions of NXT and crash the system right after. Because, why not? Nothing's at stake, amirite?

Feel free to come at us...

Honestly, it seems to be nothing more than childish disregard of a promising technology (no offence to XCPers in general, just the FUDdy PoW acolytes)

PoS implementations have a lot of issues and as far as I am given to understand NXT has not solved these in a strong way - if at some point these issues are resolved (by NXT or any other crypto/developer) it would doubtlessly be a very useful achievement. The NXT ipo on the other hand was basically ridiculous and it's limited nature combined with Proof of Stake will probably doom NXT as an alternative currency, which is not to say, ample technological gains/ideas might not come from NXT having existed as a project.

edit: removed gif from quote

PhantomPhreak

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Activity: 476

Merit: 300

Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder

Quote from: Bitcoin++ on June 20, 2014, 12:55:54 PM

Quote from: thermal sun on June 20, 2014, 06:20:08 AM

Hi guys,

I need some help trading on the dex.

I have just made an order to buy xcp with btc but it says i have to wait 45 minutes...

can i just transfer btc somewhere and get xcp?

i am very confused.

Same problem here. Questions to developers:

1. What is the "BTC Fee Provided" / "BTC Fee Required"? Who pays the fee and who receives it? What purpose has it? Is it for every order or just matched ones?
2. Why are bids and asks overlapping in the order book?
3. My orders got filled but I never received BTC (though I got XCP refunded, no loss). Is it so that the other trader must be online to send the BTC, so if he is not, the order rather expires?
4. Will Vennd improve this?
5. As I understand, XCP and assets issued by counterparty can be traded perfectly. It's only BTC that suffers from this because it cannot be escrowed.

1) It's an anti-trolling fee just for orders involving BTC. The user buying a Counterparty asset for Bitcoin pays the fee to the user receiving the Bitcoin. In order to match, the requested fee must be less than the provided fee.
2) This is because not all orders are matched will all others all of the time. This situation should be dramatically improved with block 310000.
3) Yep.
4) It will provide users with other ways of buying XCP and other Counterparty assets, so indirectly yes.
5) That's correct.

davethetrousers

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

If attacking the NXT chain is really so unfathomably easy as is stated by some dudes, then they should just go ahead and make it big. Cash out some millions of NXT and crash the system right after. Because, why not? Nothing's at stake, amirite?

Feel free to come at us...

Honestly, it seems to be nothing more than childish disregard of a promising technology (no offence to XCPers in general, just the FUDdy PoW acolytes)

sparta_cuss

sr. member

Activity: 386

Merit: 250

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 20, 2014, 01:02:25 PM

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

Hello, Counterpartiers

Sorry for the intrusion. We've been having quite a tussle with Mr. Meanie over at the Nxt forums. He defrauded one of our developers and wrote quite a lot of false and, frankly, rather crazy comments about Nxt and many of the developers and investors.

We'll try to get him back on our side of the fence.

Meantime, please respect the comments from the other Nxters here and do some research on the unique Nxt application of the proof-of-stake concept so that you don't simply repeat uninformed pseudo-analyses.

P.S. I own both Nxt and XCP. They target entirely different types of users with different visions for how this space will play out. I think we can get along.

Matt Y

hero member

Activity: 647

Merit: 510

Counterpartying

Maybe go talk about it in an NXT thread?

visual111

hero member

Activity: 493

Merit: 500

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 20, 2014, 01:02:25 PM

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

If it's no good, then return the 1 mill nxt? Why keep it if the algo is no good

joefox

full member

Activity: 210

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Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 20, 2014, 01:02:25 PM

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

Takes one to know one.

When will you return the 1 million Nxt worth of assets you were given to deliver a product for which you did not write a single line of code, Josh?

joefox

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: cityglut on June 19, 2014, 04:41:11 PM

That has nothing to do with mining on multiple chains at once.

Please explain how, precisely, you would forge on multiple Nxt chains at once. How would you:

1) set up multiple network nodes, with at least some stake forging on each, and keep them from getting blacklisted for bad behaviour
2) learn enough about network topology in real time to understand which forks are being processed on each of your non-blacklisted nodes -- or, better yet, predict which forks will operate on those non-blacklisted nodes
3) successfully exercise enough stake on those forks (hint: you can't move your stake from one account to another, because it won't forge until it's been in that account for 1440 blocks) to be able to forcibly forge enough blocks to create the longest chain, before any one of the other forks (being processed by a much larger proportion of total stake) outperforms you (hint: you've got about 100 seconds to do it, in competition with all of the other active accounts on the whole network, assuming all previous questions have been successfully met and verified, and then you have to start all over from step 1)

I'll wait.

You're also welcome to follow the old debate (and chime in) on our forum, here: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/some-thoughts-on-arguments-of-pow-guys/

devphp

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 260

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 20, 2014, 01:02:25 PM

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

Hello, scammer.

Will you return one million NXTs you scammed from NXT community?

bluemeanie1

sr. member

Activity: 280

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bluemeanie

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

Bitcoin++

full member

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Merit: 100

Quote from: thermal sun on June 20, 2014, 06:20:08 AM

Hi guys,

I need some help trading on the dex.

I have just made an order to buy xcp with btc but it says i have to wait 45 minutes...

can i just transfer btc somewhere and get xcp?

i am very confused.

Same problem here. Questions to developers:

1. What is the "BTC Fee Provided" / "BTC Fee Required"? Who pays the fee and who receives it? What purpose has it? Is it for every order or just matched ones?
2. Why are bids and asks overlapping in the order book?
3. My orders got filled but I never received BTC (though I got XCP refunded, no loss). Is it so that the other trader must be online to send the BTC, so if he is not, the order rather expires?
4. Will Vennd improve this?
5. As I understand, XCP and assets issued by counterparty can be traded perfectly. It's only BTC that suffers from this because it cannot be escrowed.

Ola

sr. member

Activity: 311

Merit: 250

Quote from: cityglut on June 19, 2014, 04:41:11 PM

Quote from: McDoxy on June 19, 2014, 04:37:00 PM

Quote from: cityglut on June 19, 2014, 02:30:16 PM

For now, we should point out that proof-of-stake mining has inherent problems, which, to my knowledge, neither BCNext nor anyone else in the Nxt community has addressed. In particular, the well-known "nothing at stake" attack, by which miners can mine on multiple blockchains at no cost to themselves; this is in contrast to proof-of-work, where the resources one uses to mine are depleted in the process of mining. "Transparent forging" doesn't solve this problem, and, in any case, transparent forging has not even been implemented yet.

This is what a Nxt dev had to say about the "nothing-at-stake" problem:

Quote

If you have a computer that can forge a very large number of accounts in parallel without using any CPU and can also fund these large number of accounts without costing any NXT, then sure nothing is at stake

In my experience though you need to fund each separate acct with NXT (wait long enough) and then even a small amount of CPU time, multiplied by millions of accounts, well that seems to take some CPU power after all.
So, if you ignore the millions in NXT fees to create the accounts and the CPU power needed to forge on those millions of accounts, then you can try to monkey around with grabbing all the forging fees.

economically it doesnt make sense as there is NXT at stake. I think the premise of "nothing at stake" is that it rhymes with "proof of stake" so it has to make sense. It seems the assumption is that they can buy an arbitrary amount of NXT for free, so maybe much closer to genesis this would have been an issue, but now it is nonsensical.

That has nothing to do with mining on multiple chains at once.

Your last statement show a complete lack of understanding of the NXT forging algorithm and its because of you and the like's of peter todd not taking the time to research before commenting, that people who are not technically adept run regurgitating untrue statements at these meetups...Nxt POS algo is much different than any other POS or even Peercoins algorithm...

I have been following counterparty's development since the first burn and up until now I have admired the efforts of the devs..I have looked into the details of Nxt and counterparty, and I must say that even though they are competing projects, the devs here should take more responsibility when talking about technical details of competing projects...

if you want to make valid criticisms and quit misleading your audience, at least you can start by reviewing some of the discussions by the core developers here: https://nxtforum.org/general/how-does-nxt-fix-the-nothing-at-stake-problem/ your nothing at stake argument is moot, know the facts before your use your authority to mislead others

Edit: and for your info I am a major burner....

At the 56:50 mark: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb94-privacy-and-the-arts/ complete FUD and untruths...and thousands of people repeat the same thing confidently like parrots...Nxt is significantly different than peercoin POS, any other proof of stake and the fundamental the code base which is written in java. Nxt is has decentralized as you can get from marketing, development and all other initiatives. Shame on Adam for passive action in letting that smear fly by...You devs have to realize your power and take better responsibility!

porqupine

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Quote from: JahPowerBit on June 20, 2014, 09:31:18 AM

Quote from: EvilDave on June 20, 2014, 03:09:29 AM

Quote from: TheMightyX on June 19, 2014, 01:02:30 PM

These posts, although unpleasant, are also necessary to learn and grow. If we don't understand what we are doing wrong we will continue to do so.

One of the main differences between Nxt and XCP is that NXT has a central lead, someone who is directly responsible and invested in the success of the currency. With XCP no one person is any more invested than the next. We all stand to gain and lose just as much as we invested.

NXT has someone to say "hey, this is a problem, so we are going to do this". Where as XCP doesn't have that central lead or authority. This was the decision of the developers to create a grass-roots free-growing enterprise and only the future will tell how it all turns out. I don't support this model and in the past I have voiced my opinions on the subject so I wont rehash them. It's also important to understand that NXT isn't limited by outside factors (BTC). NXT lives and dies by its own decisions. It is not arbitrarily limited or denied (OP return anyone?) by external forces (BTC developers). The initial XCP developers chose to attach this project to BTC for certain reasons and it was their right to choose so.

I've got to address this: No gods, no kings, just NXT.

NXT is as completely de-centralised as we can possibly make it, there is no overall leader or even group of leaders. Makes life harder when it comes to making decisions sometimes, but it's worth it.

Come on over to our funky little forum:
www.nxtforum.org
and see how NXT rolls....

Quote from: TheMightyX on June 19, 2014, 01:02:30 PM

Hard to argue with that.

Yeah, well, except for the slavery part. The guys who built the pyramids where free craftsmen working for good wages and the sheer glory of building big things.

Yes and even, it is better not to have the Pyramids, if it can save even one single man from slavery.

I'd take the pyramids

cryptshine

newbie

Activity: 47

Merit: 0

Thx for all your help dude, and best of luck on your startup! Excited for whats coming down the line.

Quote from: Matt Y on June 19, 2014, 05:46:28 PM

Everyone that wants the price of XCP to go up is just waiting for the betting feature of Counterparty to be more widely adopted. That will be the main price driver for XCP.

The adoption of the Counterparty protocol and adoption of betting related businesses which use the Counterparty protocol are two different things and while they both affect the price of XCP, one is clearly more focused and directly related to a rapid increase in the price of XCP.

While Counterparty does do marketing and business development (quite a bit actually...), businesses like xbet.io, my soon-to-come site, and other sites that come later, are all going to market their businesses and Counterparty will benefit from that exposure. In return, those new businesses will benefit from Counterparty's previous marketing efforts and the earlier success of the pioneers in this space like Digital Tangible Trust, Swarm, and so on.

This time period is a very early slice of what will become a full and active Counterparty ecosystem where the promotion of various businesses and the promotion of the Counterparty Protocol has a synergistic effect for both the protocol and new businesses that enter the Counterparty ecosystem.

It's important that as a community, we support various businesses on Counterparty that add value to the ecosystem as well as Counterparty The Protocol. The success of Counterparty based businesses is an important step to the ultimate success of Counterparty, however, the success of Counterparty based businesses cannot be lumped in with the promotion and success of Counterparty The Protocol. Buy some gold, bet on some football, support an artist coin, get in there and mix it up.

Announcement:

I no longer volunteer full-time with Counterparty, although I will still help out informally whenever I can.

My experience at Counterparty was fantastic. I learned a lot and was able to have a positive impact on a project that created the future of finance. Very cool.

My shift in focus will allow me to spend more time on my Counterparty-powered startup which will have an official announcement shortly.

JahPowerBit

sr. member

Activity: 335

Merit: 255

Counterparty Developer

Quote from: EvilDave on June 20, 2014, 03:09:29 AM

Quote from: TheMightyX on June 19, 2014, 01:02:30 PM

These posts, although unpleasant, are also necessary to learn and grow. If we don't understand what we are doing wrong we will continue to do so.

One of the main differences between Nxt and XCP is that NXT has a central lead, someone who is directly responsible and invested in the success of the currency. With XCP no one person is any more invested than the next. We all stand to gain and lose just as much as we invested.

NXT has someone to say "hey, this is a problem, so we are going to do this". Where as XCP doesn't have that central lead or authority. This was the decision of the developers to create a grass-roots free-growing enterprise and only the future will tell how it all turns out. I don't support this model and in the past I have voiced my opinions on the subject so I wont rehash them. It's also important to understand that NXT isn't limited by outside factors (BTC). NXT lives and dies by its own decisions. It is not arbitrarily limited or denied (OP return anyone?) by external forces (BTC developers). The initial XCP developers chose to attach this project to BTC for certain reasons and it was their right to choose so.

I've got to address this: No gods, no kings, just NXT.

NXT is as completely de-centralised as we can possibly make it, there is no overall leader or even group of leaders. Makes life harder when it comes to making decisions sometimes, but it's worth it.

Come on over to our funky little forum:
www.nxtforum.org
and see how NXT rolls....

Quote from: TheMightyX on June 19, 2014, 01:02:30 PM

Hard to argue with that.

Yeah, well, except for the slavery part. The guys who built the pyramids where free craftsmen working for good wages and the sheer glory of building big things.

Yes and even, it is better not to have the Pyramids, if it can save even one single man from slavery.

thermal sun

newbie

Activity: 3

Merit: 0

Hi guys,

I need some help trading on the dex.

I have just made an order to buy xcp with btc but it says i have to wait 45 minutes...

can i just transfer btc somewhere and get xcp?

i am very confused.

devphp

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 260

Quote from: EvilDave on June 20, 2014, 03:09:29 AM

Yeah, well, except for the slavery part. The guys who built the pyramids where free craftsmen working for good wages and the sheer glory of building big things.

Many researchers present evidence that even modern science is just on the edge of producing tools necessary to fulfill that kind of work, hence they hint at extra-terrestrial nature of many wonders of the world, like those pyramids.

EvilDave

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1001

Quote from: TheMightyX on June 19, 2014, 01:02:30 PM

These posts, although unpleasant, are also necessary to learn and grow. If we don't understand what we are doing wrong we will continue to do so.

One of the main differences between Nxt and XCP is that NXT has a central lead, someone who is directly responsible and invested in the success of the currency. With XCP no one person is any more invested than the next. We all stand to gain and lose just as much as we invested.

NXT has someone to say "hey, this is a problem, so we are going to do this". Where as XCP doesn't have that central lead or authority. This was the decision of the developers to create a grass-roots free-growing enterprise and only the future will tell how it all turns out. I don't support this model and in the past I have voiced my opinions on the subject so I wont rehash them. It's also important to understand that NXT isn't limited by outside factors (BTC). NXT lives and dies by its own decisions. It is not arbitrarily limited or denied (OP return anyone?) by external forces (BTC developers). The initial XCP developers chose to attach this project to BTC for certain reasons and it was their right to choose so.

I've got to address this: No gods, no kings, just NXT.

NXT is as completely de-centralised as we can possibly make it, there is no overall leader or even group of leaders. Makes life harder when it comes to making decisions sometimes, but it's worth it.

Come on over to our funky little forum:
www.nxtforum.org
and see how NXT rolls....

Quote from: TheMightyX on June 19, 2014, 01:02:30 PM

Hard to argue with that.

Yeah, well, except for the slavery part. The guys who built the pyramids where free craftsmen working for good wages and the sheer glory of building big things.

cityglut

full member

Activity: 216

Merit: 100

Quote from: Matt Y on June 19, 2014, 05:46:28 PM

Everyone that wants the price of XCP to go up is just waiting for the betting feature of Counterparty to be more widely adopted. That will be the main price driver for XCP.

The adoption of the Counterparty protocol and adoption of betting related businesses which use the Counterparty protocol are two different things and while they both affect the price of XCP, one is clearly more focused and directly related to a rapid increase in the price of XCP.

While Counterparty does do marketing and business development (quite a bit actually...), businesses like xbet.io, my soon-to-come site, and other sites that come later, are all going to market their businesses and Counterparty will benefit from that exposure. In return, those new businesses will benefit from Counterparty's previous marketing efforts and the earlier success of the pioneers in this space like Digital Tangible Trust, Swarm, and so on.

This time period is a very early slice of what will become a full and active Counterparty ecosystem where the promotion of various businesses and the promotion of the Counterparty Protocol has a synergistic effect for both the protocol and new businesses that enter the Counterparty ecosystem.

It's important that as a community, we support various businesses on Counterparty that add value to the ecosystem as well as Counterparty The Protocol. The success of Counterparty based businesses is an important step to the ultimate success of Counterparty, however, the success of Counterparty based businesses cannot be lumped in with the promotion and success of Counterparty The Protocol. Buy some gold, bet on some football, support an artist coin, get in there and mix it up.

Announcement:

I no longer volunteer full-time with Counterparty, although I will still help out informally whenever I can.

My experience at Counterparty was fantastic. I learned a lot and was able to have a positive impact on a project that created the future of finance. Very cool.

My shift in focus will allow me to spend more time on my Counterparty-powered startup which will have an official announcement shortly.

Matt has been an immense help to us, and we really appreciate everything he's done.

BldSwtTrs

legendary

Activity: 861

Merit: 1010

Quote from: Matt Y on June 19, 2014, 05:46:28 PM

Everyone that wants the price of XCP to go up is just waiting for the betting feature of Counterparty to be more widely adopted. That will be the main price driver for XCP.

The adoption of the Counterparty protocol and adoption of betting related businesses which use the Counterparty protocol are two different things and while they both affect the price of XCP, one is clearly more focused and directly related to a rapid increase in the price of XCP.

While Counterparty does do marketing and business development (quite a bit actually...), businesses like xbet.io, my soon-to-come site, and other sites that come later, are all going to market their businesses and Counterparty will benefit from that exposure. In return, those new businesses will benefit from Counterparty's previous marketing efforts and the earlier success of the pioneers in this space like Digital Tangible Trust, Swarm, and so on.

This time period is a very early slice of what will become a full and active Counterparty ecosystem where the promotion of various businesses and the promotion of the Counterparty Protocol has a synergistic effect for both the protocol and new businesses that enter the Counterparty ecosystem.

It's important that as a community, we support various businesses on Counterparty that add value to the ecosystem as well as Counterparty The Protocol. The success of Counterparty based businesses is an important step to the ultimate success of Counterparty, however, the success of Counterparty based businesses cannot be lumped in with the promotion and success of Counterparty The Protocol. Buy some gold, bet on some football, support an artist coin, get in there and mix it up.

Announcement:

I no longer volunteer full-time with Counterparty, although I will still help out informally whenever I can.

My experience at Counterparty was fantastic. I learned a lot and was able to have a positive impact on a project that created the future of finance. Very cool.

My shift in focus will allow me to spend more time on my Counterparty-powered startup which will have an official announcement shortly.

Thanks for what you have done!

Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 250. (Read 1276936 times)