Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum - page 86. (Read 69394 times)
If bfl returned btc for btc, and the $/btc rate plummeted to $2 a coin from $6, the same people demanding btc for btc now would cry "no I payed an equivalent of a $ amount. More coins, you scammers"! In short, bfl is always the bad guy here, whatever the outcome.
If you're going to receive a refund, it's going to be in USD, priced as USD. BitPay and BFL are going to make sure of that. Fun fact, Tony from BitPay confirmed to me that a large number of the first people who preordered bought back the very same amount of bitcoins from him (and I assume many others who did so through other means). If you were one of those people, congrats... you didn't 'lose' anything due to the increasing value of bitcoin.
If you look at your Bitpay receipt, it will say something like this.
I don't have the link to mine here, but it looks something like that.
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$1234USD
(321BTC)
You paid 321BTC
(321BTC)
You paid 321BTC
I don't have the link to mine here, but it looks something like that.
I looked at my confirmation, and no prices were on it at all. Just my order # and what product it was.
I do remember all the prices being in USD, with no mention on BFL's site about BTC prices whatsoever...
When I was going through the process to pay, I picked the option to pay using Bitcoin, at that point I was sent to a bitpay page, showing the USD amount of my purchase, and the equivalent amount of BTC I would have to send, and when it saw the transaction, I was sent back to the BFL page, and my order was completed as paid.
-- Smoov
I do remember all the prices being in USD, with no mention on BFL's site about BTC prices whatsoever...
When I was going through the process to pay, I picked the option to pay using Bitcoin, at that point I was sent to a bitpay page, showing the USD amount of my purchase, and the equivalent amount of BTC I would have to send, and when it saw the transaction, I was sent back to the BFL page, and my order was completed as paid.
-- Smoov
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.
I actually have to agree here.
How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?
If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value.
The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC.
This is my interpretation of US and EU consumer protection laws as well.
Surely someone in the thread can enlighten us as to whether their order confirmation/invoice is written in USD or BTC. And surely by now someone who paid using Bit-Pay has received a refund and can tell us whether they had the option to receive it in BTC.
I suspect that from an accounting point of view it would be a lot easier for BFL to record all sales in USD.
I suspect that from an accounting point of view it would be a lot easier for BFL to record all sales in USD.
They may have used Bitcoin as the method of payment, but what you paid for was in USD...
The units were priced in USD, marketed in USD, invoiced in USD, with your payment method being via Bitcoin.
A refund, would be in USD, and if you chose to have your refund method being via Bitcoin, then your refund would be in USD, converted into Bitcoin at the exchange rate at the time of the refund.
Now if their products were priced in BTC from the start, and stayed in BTC, then insisting on getting back the same amount of BTC would be appropriate, but since they're based in USD, then conversion rates at the times of the transactions come into play.
-- Smoov
The units were priced in USD, marketed in USD, invoiced in USD, with your payment method being via Bitcoin.
A refund, would be in USD, and if you chose to have your refund method being via Bitcoin, then your refund would be in USD, converted into Bitcoin at the exchange rate at the time of the refund.
Now if their products were priced in BTC from the start, and stayed in BTC, then insisting on getting back the same amount of BTC would be appropriate, but since they're based in USD, then conversion rates at the times of the transactions come into play.
-- Smoov
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.
I actually have to agree here.
How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?
If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value.
The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC.
^ that's actually a very good point
On top of that, it looks like at least some customers DID pay in bitcoin.
Right from the BFL FAQ on their webpage:
Code:
Why do you not accept Paypal for your SC line of products?
We do! However, in the beginning, we wanted to promote Bitcoin, so the first orders were taken exclusively in Bitcoin
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.
I actually have to agree here.
How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?
If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value.
The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC.
^ that's actually a very good point
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.
I actually have to agree here.
How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?
If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value.
The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC.
BFL products are priced in USD. They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD. That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.
And if you paid 200 AUD for something, and later got a refund and only received 100 AUD, that would suck, wouldn't it?
I'm not saying that it wouldn't suck. My point was that I can't expect a refund in AUD because I didn't pay in AUD. BFL (wisely) priced their product in relatively stable USD and received payments in that currency. While it might suck for people who chose not to pay directly in USD, it's not like the people who chose to avoid directly using dirty fiat dollars didn't know that the Bitcoin price might move in a direction which disadvantaged them if they required a refund.
BFL products are priced in USD. They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD. That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.
And if you paid 200 AUD for something, and later got a refund and only received 100 AUD, that would suck, wouldn't it?
You only 'lost' money if you didn't rebuy the bitcoins you spent on the preorder and if you bought bitcoins solely to preorder you certainly didn't 'lose' anything.
You could say you lost money if you bought a preorder with bitcoins that you would otherwise be holding and not rebuy them.
You could say you lost money if you bought a preorder with bitcoins that you would otherwise be holding and not rebuy them.
BFL products are priced in USD. They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD. That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.
And if you paid 200 AUD for something, and later got a refund and only received 100 AUD, that would suck, wouldn't it?
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.
Sure it does. If I buy something from Amazon, I'm paying for it in USD even though AUD come out of my bank account. If I receive a refund from Amazon, it will be issued in US - the exchange rate at the time it's issued may work in my favour or against me.
BFL products are priced in USD. They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD. That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.
Oh god, here we go again on the subject of "how much is lost by spending a certain number of bitcoins."
Which is a completely moot question.
Which is a completely moot question.
Not when refunds come into play. Someone who paid in BTC for a pre-order 6 months ago for 200 BTC, if they get a refund now they'll only get 100 BTC back. Ouch!
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.
I thought that Bitcoin payments for BFL products went through Bit-Pay and that BFL received the payments in USD - which would mean they couldn't refund "your" Bitcoins because they never received your payment in BTC in the first place.
This, it was tied to the US dollar.
So how many BTC did you lose?
Oh god, here we go again on the subject of "how much is lost by spending a certain number of bitcoins."
Which is a completely moot question.
BTW, I think the question Josh needs to answer isn't "when will the chips be ready", but "what date do you hope to start assembling units"? The projected assembly date is the most meaningful one for customers because the chips aren't really "ready" or "delivered" until they're at the assembly location about to be put into units.
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
Quote
So how many BTC did you lose?
Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.
I thought that Bitcoin payments for BFL products went through Bit-Pay and that BFL received the payments in USD - which would mean they couldn't refund "your" Bitcoins because they never received your payment in BTC in the first place.
This, it was tied to the US dollar.
So how many BTC did you lose?
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