Topic: | ARDOR | Scalable Blockchain-as-a-Service Platform | Proof of Stake - page 186. (Read 395481 times)

My facts are quite straight. As usual. Your foregone conclusions on the other hand... First of all, it not clear, to this day, who and how the "theft" was perpetrated (there's plenty of literature about it in Google). Lin, the owner of Biter, is a piece of shit individual that was proven to be involved in several scams after that and it is strongly suspected that this "theft" was actually an inside job, as in most of the theft cases, is. And the purpose of the "theft", clearly, was an attack on NXT, not just steal as many coins as possible, much less BTC. BTC stolen is sure to "work", since no one is going to hard fork it where NXT could have done it easily -like Vericoin did just weeks before, for the same reason-, thus rendering the "theft" of no value whatsoever. So it was an attack on NXT and NXT was susceptible (all coins but BTC are) to that attack. Should it have affected more people -or more of the RIGHT people, or in bigger amount-, what would NXT have done? that's just up for speculation. Successful enterprises, the mainstream, conventional ones, are not open to such possibilities of attacks ... not to mention the security of networks sustained by the computers on the hands of people of... let's say a rather anarchist vision of the world, spread the world over? I'm sure you catch my point.

The forging pools accumulate the NXT fees in their forging account, and that account will be accumulating ARDOR like all other accounts. Are the pools going to distribute the ARDOR? afaik the pools don't distribute NXT until users request payment of their share, so the pools hold some nxt on behalf of pool members. There is uncertainty here ...

I don't recall saying that anyone deserves to be stolen from in my post?? I just asked the question why anyone who is currently selling NXT care about Ardor? To me if they truly wanted the Ardor credit, the best and easiest way is to hold it until after the distribution and then sell. I agree with you that it's ultimately the exchanges responsibility to ensure distribution is done on their side, it's just to many moving parts where things can go wrong for me, so I feel safer with my funds in my personal NXT wallet. That way I'm sure to get my correct distribution and can use the funds to start foraging. I've been scammed for over $2,000 in BTC when I first started, so I definitely don't want anyone to loose money and feel how I did.

Back on subject-

I just setup my first NXT node on a raspberry pi 3 last night and it's finally sync'd to the block chain. The process was pretty easy and painless following the guide on the foundation blog, just having an issue getting the CRON job setup via the guide (Linux noob)...

+1440 for futureprocessa

There are some inaccuracies here, but they've been addressed already by others. I'm going to address what I think is your main concern, that being...

"The possibilities of it finally breaking the barrier and entering the mainstream of the real world."

Here's the reality; That's already happened. There's an entire pseudo-economy in the crypto sphere worth, at a minimum, 10 billion USD, and probably a lot more given other factors involved.

Maybe you want to know when blockchain technology will have larger mainstream business applications.

Well, it already does. Consider the Russian use of NXT voting technology. Maybe you're interested in large corporate applications, like banks and multinationals.

That's an easy question to answer. Large banks won't use blockchains as we do... but they will license the technology. They'll contract the Nxt team. They'll want it adapted to their specific needs. And there's a whole bunch of reasons why these blockchains are superior compared to traditional databases as financial ledgers. But that's what they'll do. They'll license what they think is the best, most suitable technology and adapt it to their needs, and the R&D process for his selection is already going on  in Banking conglomerates worldwide. You need only ask them, and plenty have been public with their testing of blockchain technologies. If you want to talk about the specific benefits of blockchains versus private databases for financial institutions, that's a different question that should be handled in a different topic.

As for the actual users of the Nxt blockchain, who will they be?

In all likelihood, they'll be entrepreneurs. They'll be small business folk. They'll be people with great ideas and fantastic talent, but without the 100 million USD to spend that these banks and states have. And they'll need a place to build their vision. Some will need cryptocurrencies. Some will need assets. Some will need an easy way to build Smart Contracts.

Ardor will provide the ecosystem for all of them. And when 1, 2, or 3 of this horde of entrepreneurial projects succeed, that's when we'll see a sudden and dramatic collision of the crypto and mainstream business worlds.

And here's the truth: I don't know which entrepreneurial project will do that job. None of us do. We don't know which tools or technologies they'll need, or how they'll use them. That's why Ardor is refining all these different applications. Ardor sets the stage for them, creates the network infrastructure, and builds every tool they could possibly need.

Then it's up to us entrepreneurs to create amazing things and disrupt the behemoths.

If you lease you don't lose your nxt to the account you lease it too.
NXT stays on your own account and you can do whatever you want (sell, buy etc) with it while you lease it out.
So the same NXT you have on your account will get you Ardor (whether you lease it or not).

If you get NXT fees from forging they will be added to your account and you will get Ardor for that (the amount is dependent on the averaging snapshot fase)

There are no new coins in Nxt. Nxt has a fixed supply of coins (NXT). The coins gained by forging are the fees people pay to send transactions.

Will the user who lease the forging power also earn ARDR in the distribution phase? Does ARDR is paid to all new coins from forging?

No need for pools to redistribute ARDR. Because one of the great things about Nxt is that you can lease your forging power without leasing your coins. So the coins stay on your account and you get the ARDR to your account although you are leasing the forging power of your coins.

How are the forging pools catering to the ardor snapshots? Are they passing on ardor tokens?

The Exchanges polo,  btc38 and bittrex are assisting with the snapshots.  How they will distribute is for every exchange different, because most of them have 1 big account on Nxt and keep an own administered system for their internal "NXT " account holders. But these accounts exist only in the exchange. That is why its the exchange his responsibility to distribute the right amounts to the holders.

I will check with the nxt foundation contact for the latest info about it.

The attack was on the exchange and not on Nxt. The hacker stole nxt tokens,  because it was between btc and nxt at that moment of time.

Please get your facts straight,  before posting information on here that is not true.

Only NXT were stolen, as far as my facts go. So it was an attack on NXT specifically, not the exchange. Unless of course my facts are wrong...

An exchange was attacked and stolen from. NOT NXT. Check your facts.

"But you're not running a regular wallet when you use exchanges. That is custom code written by the exchange to display your balance. How can you expect the NXT foundation to write custom code for each exchange to display a projected Ardor distribution? No where is it stated that a "preview" of how much to expect is a requirement for a wallet, only that there will be a distribution that you will receive. The information needed to calculate the amount is widely posted everywhere for your current NXT holdings. If you want the preview functionality, then hold your NXT in a web or desktop wallet and not on an exchange. That is the official stance of the NXT foundation anyways, so I take that as keeping my funds by any other means is a risk. So if I want to guarantee my funds, I need to be holding them in a personal wallet and not on an exchange. I mean if you have your NXT posted up for sale, clearly you don't believe in the platform and are looking to exit, so why would you care about not receiving any Ardor tokens, unless you just want to dump to make a quick buck? After all the NXT is still needed to acquire the coins from the first child chain, so how can you expect to receive coins for that if you're selling them now?"

Wow, this is completely absurd. And illegal. You can do with your NXT whatever you want, no restrictions whatsoever. And what Next Foundation says it is going to do, is taking snapshots (which they are doing) every hour and that by October 10-12 you will get your Ardor on a 1:1 basis, REGARDLESS where you have or have had those NXT coins, as long as they have been snapshot. Bittrex (and Polo and others, I believe) have agreed to cooperate with this operation and, logically, are not planning on keeping the Ardor themselves (at least I don't think they plan that. If they do, theyll be sued and obviously they will lose hundreds if not thousands of customers and since their business is making money from commissions on trades, not from thievery, logically they will keep their word and do just that). Now, what Bittrex at least don't have is the MECANICALS to tell me, ok as of today, your Ardor accumulated, giving the average of your NXT holdings, is XXX amount. Not that they don't have the will to give the coins to you, they do. They just need the MECANICALS -again- to calculate that as of today. We all know that the figures you get today won't be effective (although they are as real as they can be), meaning you won't get the actual credit, until October 10-12. But the whole point is that there's no reason but, again, the MECANICALS, to not have that estimation in your exchange account just like you do in your regular wallet. The Foundation should provide those mecanicals as of yesterday.

The whole matter of the first chain is up in the air and won't be specific until it is, so it is very secondary for many NXT investors, both traders and long term holders. And has nothing whatsoever to do with the ARDOR matter.

I didnt mean that accountants and tax consultants will be made obsolete. I was just talking about the costs of making sure that account x holds amount y of token z. Take loyalty tokens as an example.

Here too loyalty tokens would be an example of a business form that works without anonymity and can benefit from the Ardor design. If you want anonymity combined with the possibility of a refund you would need an escrow.

Your first answer is quite easily countered: Bookeeping -and by that a type of bookkeeping that require specific legal FORMS-, is IMPOSED by the laws of every country. It isn't a private thing, like you imply. You have to present those filled forms and make formal declarations every quarter. That's separately and beyond the normal payroll that, in large companies, requires full departments to handle. I don't see how a child chain will have a positive impact given that, even if it were to simplify some tasks, scores of people would still be necessary to be able to present the quarterly results to the corresponding authorities. Maybe I am too close minded but it seems to me you are more referring to the ledger Al Capone had than to the payroll of, say, IBM, I don't know...

With respect to the buyer and seller, I thought the whole point of it was, precisely, to keep the anonymity on both ends otherwise why would them be in any way benefitial for any of them?

So people who want to sell NXT deserve to be stolen from? Exchanges deserve to keep the millions of ARDR tokens they get from the software for all those millions of NXT in sell orders? We are probably talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars here. I still hope that exchanges understand that it is their responsibility to distribute ARDR tokens correctly to all of their clients, though.

Well the whole enchilada at this point is precisely debating -or trolling, if you prefer- the common sense merits of a projects and the possibilities of it finally breaking the barrier and entering the mainstream of the real world. Now, from that perspective, can you tell me again what would be the advantage of a bank using this, as oppose of the private networks they already use? will they eliminate one step in the chain of events from the window to the ledger? I just can't see it, sorry. How will security be improved -with respect to what the now have-, by using a "master network" (the Ardor main one) they have no control whatsoever over and that, regardless whatever it is pretended here or anywhere, is not just susceptible but even prone to outside and successful attacks? Please lets not forget that about a year or so NXT was successfully attacked (and robbed). How on earth is ANY mainstream enterprise ever going to trust their security -and funds- to a system that is constantly the object of thefts and security violation, even in the case of the top of the line, cutting edge technology (arguably), like ETH? How can a responsible, successful, CEO be convinced any of this is actually, practically, viable?

The answer that time will tell is simply not good enough. Enough time and we will all be bald. And dead.

The big advantage of child chains is that you dont have to take care of bookkeeping yourself anymore. This task is outsourced to ARDR stakers. Bookkeeping usually produces costs (including security costs) and therefore reduces profits. If the cost for paying ARDR stakers is lower than doing the bookkeping yourself, there is a clear benefit.


In your examples you assume that a token is used as medium of exchange between the seller and the buyer of a good. Why should the seller not be able to give back the token to the buyer, when the buyer is not satisfied with the product? The trade will happen under a certain legislation. If the buyer knows the identity of the seller he can just take legal action. If the seller is a machine the buyer should know exactly what he gets, because a machine cant do otherwise than it is programmed. But even in this case a refund would be possible - by the creator of the child chain. If he is a machine too, well, then the buyer doesnt expect a refund possibility in the first place. Maybe I am even discriminating machines by implying they are not capable of doing a refund...

What Smart Transactions in Ardor mean is just that the creator of a child chain can determine which ones of a predetermined set of transaction types will be possible in his chain. I dont see how this makes refunds impossible.