[Aug 2022] Mempool empty! Use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs! - page 18.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: NapHappy on March 17, 2024, 01:14:49 PM

I think the correct strategy is to always spend from the UTXO with the highest amount of bitcoin. Is there is a flaw in this strategy?

Well, if you have many UTXO and also spend a lot, sooner or later you can easily end up with small inputs off this, so you still have to consolidate now ant then.
The strategy is not very bad, but not the best either. However, I feel that the problem of small inputs is coming more from how you earn/get to your custody those UTXO (so you may not be in real danger).

Since I have - now and then - to convert Bitcoin into fiat (sadly), one strategy I take is that when I have to spend I pick some 1-2 UTXO with the sum not that far from the amount I need, and the change I send to the centralized wallet that I use to convert to fiat (not nice, but meh).

NapHappy

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While I am waiting for lower fees, I want to prevent having small UTXOs in the future.

I think the correct strategy is to always spend from the UTXO with the highest amount of bitcoin. Is there is a flaw in this strategy?

All my BTC is KYC.
I don't engage in any illegal activity.
I don't have enough BTC to worry about people knowing my balance (well below 1 BTC).

LoyceV

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Quote from: philipma1957 on March 16, 2024, 02:41:09 PM

the spend done to raise fees would need to be 15% of what the fees run.

Ie spend .2 btc on fees. your pool mine ⅓ the blocks so your actual spend is not .2 it is .133

So what does the cost of .133 raise the fees by for each block . If they can move block fees from .1 to .5

and they hit ⅓ of those blocks they get .167 for spending .133

You're double counting block rewards. If you spend 0.2BTC per block to raise fees by 0.4 BTC per block, and mine 1 out of 3 blocks, you're losing 0.2BTC per block you mine.

Apart from the math, with different numbers this may work in the short-term. But in the long-term, if you're spending 0.2BTC per block on raising the fees, and your competitors spend 0.2BTC per block on buying new mining hardware, you're on the losing end.

stompix

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: LoyceV on March 16, 2024, 12:30:25 PM

Quote from: stompix on March 16, 2024, 11:24:59 AM

And guess what, they are still doing it:
https://mempool.space/tx/7470af51e25700b7053781fc72ed6cffb5b4996aea4d1dcb91072d3b29820717

At least those transactions are sending payments, not consolidating.
They're still doing it: this transaction takes 9 dust inputs and one large legacy input. It sends a small amount to a new address, and the majority back to the original large legacy address. If they would have forgotten about the dust, they could have made the same transaction, saved $300, and would have had more money in their large legacy address than they do now. If this is a failed algorithm I'd like to apply for a job to do this manually. I only charge 50% of all the money I save in fees. It will take me just a few months before I can retire.

Hmm, now that I look again, this is way weirder than at first, maybe the labels are wrong?
1Kr6QSydW9bFQG1mXiPNNu6WpJGmUa9i1g is labeled as Bitfinex
https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/1Kr6QSydW9bFQG1mXiPNNu6WpJGmUa9i1g
3929qmbYYxAST12ceKRWKxcRFwXNnrXnfE
https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/3929qmbYYxAST12ceKRWKxcRFwXNnrXnfE

I'm saying that because what they are doing is really strange, they have >20 000 transactions like that, and this looks more like an old tumbling mixing error than anything else and this has been going for 8 days, kind of impossible for an exchange not to see it.

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 16, 2024, 02:41:09 PM

the spend done to raise fees would need to be 15% of what the fees run.

Ie spend .2 btc on fees. your pool mine ⅓ the blocks so your actual spend is not .2 it is .133

So what does the cost of .133 raise the fees by for each block . If they can move block fees from .1 to .5

and they hit ⅓ of those blocks they get .167 for spending .133

That's the big IF Phil, because if the amount of tx you need to create and mine yourself is just too big compared to the natural activity you will end up mining your own fees and little else, losing 1 block of 8 sat/vb fees for 1/10 of a block of 10 sat/vb fees.
And right now, as we actually mine 8sat/vb there is no demand for that block space, all weeknd and stuff.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 16, 2024, 02:10:43 PM

Any way to raise fees that is not crazy expensive is being tested by large miners.

And your evidence to support this claim is... ?

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 16, 2024, 02:10:43 PM

But if I am foundry grabbing ⅓ of the blocks raising fees is in my interest.

First of all, let's define what it means to "raise the fees". A miner cannot force a user to raise their transaction fee. A miner can only express their disapproval by not mining transactions paying less than x sat/vb. But, this gives their competitors the option to earn those fees. And since Foundry controls 33% of the hashrate, then it is a matter of time until transactions paying less than x sat/vb are mined by the rest 66%.

Related topic: What happens if pools try to maximize fees by congesting the network?

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: cryptosize on March 16, 2024, 02:22:33 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 16, 2024, 02:10:43 PM

Quote from: cryptosize on March 16, 2024, 01:17:36 PM

Quote from: LoyceV on March 16, 2024, 12:30:25 PM

You didn't check the link I posted, now did you? Usually, fiat billionaires don't get rich by wasting money. It's like spending $100 to get rid of $5 from your wallet. It doesn't make sense.

I did, but don't assume that's his only wallet. Whales have multiple wallets, they mix funds... did you perform chain analysis or what?

Only a whale would waste that much money on a regular basis (as you said), not a shrimp.

Any way to raise fees that is not crazy expensive is being tested by large miners.

The ½ should bring about a lot of weird bizarre money moves.

But if I am foundry grabbing ⅓ of the blocks raising fees is in my interest.

Perhaps, but with 5 big mining pools there should be some competition fee-wise:

https://miningpoolstats.stream/bitcoin

It's not like Foundry has 90% of the hashrate to solve almost every block...

If your hypothesis is correct, this gives some ammo to BTC critics to declare it "centralized".

the spend done to raise fees would need to be 15% of what the fees run.

Ie spend .2 btc on fees. your pool mine ⅓ the blocks so your actual spend is not .2 it is .133

So what does the cost of .133 raise the fees by for each block . If they can move block fees from .1 to .5

and they hit ⅓ of those blocks they get .167 for spending .133

cryptosize

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Quote from: philipma1957 on March 16, 2024, 02:10:43 PM

Quote from: cryptosize on March 16, 2024, 01:17:36 PM

Quote from: LoyceV on March 16, 2024, 12:30:25 PM

You didn't check the link I posted, now did you? Usually, fiat billionaires don't get rich by wasting money. It's like spending $100 to get rid of $5 from your wallet. It doesn't make sense.

I did, but don't assume that's his only wallet. Whales have multiple wallets, they mix funds... did you perform chain analysis or what?

Only a whale would waste that much money on a regular basis (as you said), not a shrimp.

Any way to raise fees that is not crazy expensive is being tested by large miners.

The ½ should bring about a lot of weird bizarre money moves.

But if I am foundry grabbing ⅓ of the blocks raising fees is in my interest.

Perhaps, but with 5 big mining pools there should be some competition fee-wise:

https://miningpoolstats.stream/bitcoin

It's not like Foundry has 90% of the hashrate to solve almost every block...

If your hypothesis is correct, this gives some ammo to BTC critics to declare it "centralized".

philipma1957

legendary

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'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: cryptosize on March 16, 2024, 01:17:36 PM

Quote from: LoyceV on March 16, 2024, 12:30:25 PM

You didn't check the link I posted, now did you? Usually, fiat billionaires don't get rich by wasting money. It's like spending $100 to get rid of $5 from your wallet. It doesn't make sense.

I did, but don't assume that's his only wallet. Whales have multiple wallets, they mix funds... did you perform chain analysis or what?

Only a whale would waste that much money on a regular basis (as you said), not a shrimp.

Any way to raise fees that is not crazy expensive is being tested by large miners.

The ½ should bring about a lot of weird bizarre money moves.

But if I am foundry grabbing ⅓ of the blocks raising fees is in my interest.

cryptosize

sr. member

Activity: 1666

Merit: 310

Quote from: LoyceV on March 16, 2024, 12:30:25 PM

You didn't check the link I posted, now did you? Usually, fiat billionaires don't get rich by wasting money. It's like spending $100 to get rid of $5 from your wallet. It doesn't make sense.

I did, but don't assume that's his only wallet. Whales have multiple wallets, they mix funds... did you perform chain analysis or what?

Only a whale would waste that much money on a regular basis (as you said), not a shrimp.

LoyceV

legendary

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: stompix on March 16, 2024, 11:24:59 AM

And guess what, they are still doing it:
https://mempool.space/tx/7470af51e25700b7053781fc72ed6cffb5b4996aea4d1dcb91072d3b29820717

At least those transactions are sending payments, not consolidating.
They're still doing it: this transaction takes 9 dust inputs and one large legacy input. It sends a small amount to a new address, and the majority back to the original large legacy address. If they would have forgotten about the dust, they could have made the same transaction, saved $300, and would have had more money in their large legacy address than they do now. If this is a failed algorithm I'd like to apply for a job to do this manually. I only charge 50% of all the money I save in fees. It will take me just a few months before I can retire.

Quote from: cryptosize on March 16, 2024, 12:06:59 PM

BTC whales don't give a shit, they're frivolous spenders.

Not much difference compared to fiat whales TBH...

You didn't check the link I posted, now did you? Usually, fiat billionaires don't get rich by wasting money. It's like spending $100 to get rid of $5 from your wallet. It doesn't make sense.

cryptosize

sr. member

Activity: 1666

Merit: 310

Quote from: LoyceV on March 16, 2024, 05:12:12 AM

he's been doing that for a very long time. He's wasting massive amounts of money on transaction fees. I don't get it.

BTC whales don't give a shit, they're frivolous spenders.

Not much difference compared to fiat whales TBH...

stompix

legendary

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: LoyceV on March 16, 2024, 05:12:12 AM

Looking at his address, he's been doing that for a very long time. He's wasting massive amounts of money on transaction fees. I don't get it.

Deja-vu? Seems like the output wallet is labeled as Bitfinex, no surprise if they are behind it, I remember them from a year ago when they did it exactly when I was seding a tx:

Quote from: stompix on October 06, 2023, 05:05:41 AM

And just when you thought everything is fine..
https://mempool.space/address/bc1quhruqrghgcca950rvhtrg7cpd7u8k6svpzgzmrjy8xyukacl5lkq0r8l2d

Bitfinex comes and tries to consolidate its dust with 20 blocks worth of tx paying even 50-60sat/b, because obviously, their script is detecting their own transactions in the mempool so they were trying to compete with their own so from 2sat/b in just a few hours we're at 40. When you think that there are still a ton of other exchanges waiting for this then probably it will take more than three weekends for everything to normalize.

And guess what, they are still doing it:
https://mempool.space/tx/7470af51e25700b7053781fc72ed6cffb5b4996aea4d1dcb91072d3b29820717

81sat/vb when the last block had 11sat/vb transactions included.

They just don't care, Okex is also paying twice as much:
https://mempool.space/tx/ec529afad640fbfb757e833b57bf50683bf3c29dee0bacc0485894ffc57b6339
when you change the clients 10 times the fees you pay for withdrawals maybe that difference is peanuts.

LoyceV

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Let's zoom in on two consolidations:
Image loading...

One dot: 13.0 sat/vbyte, paying $323.60
Two dots: 36.3 sat/vbyte, paying $997.36
According to mempool.space, they were both first seen at the same time, and both confirmed in the same block after 7 minutes. Someone could easily have saved $650.

This guy paid 444 sat/vbyte, but included many inputs with 3183 sats. Looking at his address, he's been doing that for a very long time. He's wasting massive amounts of money on transaction fees. I don't get it.

Meanwhile, the (Ordinal) blockchain spam still continues:
Image loading...

LoyceV

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: bitmover on March 10, 2024, 01:42:41 PM

Once consolidations are over, and all this inscription speculation is over, fees must go down. (and 12 is already a good price)

Once fees drop more, I expect many more consolidations.

Quote

Transactions are basically half the block?

I'm avoiding small transactions, and I'm probably not the only one. I don't like paying more than a dollar to buy a coffee. So if fees get low enough again, I expect the transaction volume to increase.

bitmover

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bitcoindata.science

Quote from: stompix on March 10, 2024, 09:38:33 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 08, 2024, 10:55:45 AM

I do not think on chain fees under 10 sats will happen very much anymore.

There is simply no demand to keep them afloat once all the consolidation for 6 months of pain and the ordinals are gone!
Look right now at the blocks, it's 1/3 consolidations and 1/3 ordinals, actual demand for transactions outside those two is minimal, and consolidations can't keep it up since you need first the tx splitting the inputs first!

Thats correct.

Take a look here. Next block in mempool.space

https://mempool.space/mempool-block/0

Transactions are basically half the block?
Once consolidations are over, and all this inscription speculation is over, fees must go down. (and 12 is already a good price)

stompix

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 08, 2024, 10:55:45 AM

I do not think on chain fees under 10 sats will happen very much anymore.

There is simply no demand to keep them afloat once all the consolidation for 6 months of pain and the ordinals are gone!
Look right now at the blocks, it's 1/3 consolidations and 1/3 ordinals, actual demand for transactions outside those two is minimal, and consolidations can't keep it up since you need first the tx splitting the inputs first!

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 08, 2024, 10:55:45 AM

as there are unstoppable methods large farms can do to make their profits higher.
you can not stop a 30% pool from down clocking and slowing blocks to clog the mempool then once the mempool is clogged bump hash up to grab high fee blocks...

And you can't force people to make transactions either!
It's pretty simple, they can reduce the chain capacity to 10blocks a day, if there is no demand for space as ordinals hype dies and most action happens anyhow on CEX and even off blockchain completely like ETFs there is nobody who will pay you three times the fees. Of course here I ignore the misconfigured bots that pay even now 450sat/vb.

Think of it as a toll tax, once you make it worth 10 gallons of gas people will just drive around it!

Quote from: bitmover on March 08, 2024, 11:51:03 AM

We just saw 8 sat vB about 2 weeks ago.

We're in a middle of a bullrun and we're still at 12sat/vb, I don't see where any extra traffic going to come from, I think feebudy is going to need counselling soon.

AB de Royse777

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 08, 2024, 03:10:46 AM

Quote

Sometimes I find their graph gives wrong information and then I had to bump the tx or find out I paid too much fees.

Was it wrong, or did something unexpected happen? Like: mempool suddenly grows, or the block time is far from 10 minutes?

I don't know what sorts of unexpected things can happen. Usually when the mempool is congested too much, fees require too high then sometimes it gives wrong calculation for vMB.

bitmover

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bitcoindata.science

Quote from: philipma1957 on March 08, 2024, 10:55:45 AM

I do not think on chain fees under 10 sats will happen very much anymore.

This 2024 1/2 ing will be more like a 35-40% ing. not a 1/2 ing.

as there are unstoppable methods large farms can do to make their profits higher.

you can not stop a 30% pool from down clocking and slowing blocks to clog the mempool then once the mempool is clogged bump hash up to grab high fee blocks... We should see real evidence of this happening after this 1/2 ing

We just saw 8 sat vB about 2 weeks ago.

I do not think miner will refuse low fee rate transactions and mine empty blocks.
If some pools decide to do so, there will always be pools That will clear the mempool and mine full blocks, no matter the fee rate.

For now, there are 130000 transactions in the mempool. But that is quite unusual and ordinals and the bull market won't last forever..

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Cricktor on March 08, 2024, 10:36:40 AM

Quote from: bitmover on March 07, 2024, 09:34:08 AM

But as soon as the bear market comes, the fees will most likely get lower again. ...

In the bear market, ordinals will disappear, ...

Fees would probably be lower in a bear market if there wasn't this blockchain spamming. Unfortunately I'm not so confident that ordinals spam will disappear with a bear market. Blockchain spammers are likely to produce a lot of noise for nothing (translate it to overly filled mempools) to rip off gullible victims.

I got pessimistic as long as this massive blockchain spam isn't prevented by technical and/or protocol means. Some bubbles will burst over time, but spammers are creative as long as there's enough "loose" money to collect.

I do not think on chain fees under 10 sats will happen very much anymore.

This 2024 1/2 ing will be more like a 35-40% ing. not a 1/2 ing.

as there are unstoppable methods large farms can do to make their profits higher.

you can not stop a 30% pool from down clocking and slowing blocks to clog the mempool then once the mempool is clogged bump hash up to grab high fee blocks... We should see real evidence of this happening after this 1/2 ing

Cricktor

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Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: bitmover on March 07, 2024, 09:34:08 AM

But as soon as the bear market comes, the fees will most likely get lower again. ...

In the bear market, ordinals will disappear, ...

Fees would probably be lower in a bear market if there wasn't this blockchain spamming. Unfortunately I'm not so confident that ordinals spam will disappear with a bear market. Blockchain spammers are likely to produce a lot of noise for nothing (translate it to overly filled mempools) to rip off gullible victims.

I got pessimistic as long as this massive blockchain spam isn't prevented by technical and/or protocol means. Some bubbles will burst over time, but spammers are creative as long as there's enough "loose" money to collect.

Topic: [Aug 2022] Mempool empty! Use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs! - page 18. (Read 88277 times)