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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 44. (Read 378991 times)

sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
BTC trader
Veritas Sapere trying to simultaneously claim that:

  • Economic majority got the wrong answer to the question of the blocksize increase
  • The will of the economic majority should be respected
  • Veritas Sapere can simply assert who the economic majority are and what their position is at any given time
  • BIP101 is the worst scaling scheme
  • BIP101 isn't such a bad scaling scheme
  • Soft forks are a "disgusting" abuse of power
  • Devs are free to implement soft forks as they please
  • Veritas Sapere does not hold contradictory and/or hypocritical views

Any more, VS? It's an interesting list so far, is it possible that you could make it even more logically incoherent?
There is not a single hypocrisy in my position that you have successfully pointed out. I also do not think the economic majority is presently wrong in regards to the question of the blocksize. I have already countered the other accusations of hypocrisy. It is not my fault that you seem to be unable to understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought.

I will attempt to explain it again in a more general form. Sometimes people have the right to do things even though these things might be wrong, this is not contradictory, this is respecting freedom and having tolerance. For instance I respect freedom of speech, however there are many things that people can say that are outright horrible and wrong, like hate speech for example. However in order to preserve freedom of speech we need to respect other peoples right to do things that we consider to be wrong. We can also apply this to the censorship in the Bitcoin community. It was wrong for Theymos to censor reddit, yet he did have the right to do so on the forum that he controlled. Can you see how this in fact is not a contradiction but a feature of a good ethical philosophy.
We should be learning to "understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought"  Huh

I'm completely confused by this "economic majority", it just doesn't make any sense. From https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Economic_majority:
Quote
The theory that the power to control the Bitcoin protocol is held by those able and willing to offer things of value for bitcoins (be it goods, services or other currencies).
Then it continues with some blabber about miners trying to change the protocol.  Huh

VS, this dubious "economic majority" theory holds much weight in your "arguments". And furthermore, you claim that this majority is with XT. This is completely misguided. Please try to understand the source code and the engineering behind Bitcoin, and then come with your stupid political thought philosophy madness. Meanwhile, you don't know what you're talking about. You keep making a fool of yourself, and you're similar to a central bank chairman, one of those high-IQ PhD fools.

If you insist with your foolishness, at least try to keep your posts small and to the point. When I'm reading your unending political philosophy thought ethics, I feel like I'm reading marxist articles.
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
to have an alert key and there are risk associated with him having it.
A bogus alert is of fairly low risk; any misuse of the alert key will immediately cause an alert key revocation alert to be released; which will override any alerts and effectively disable the alert system. Several of us in core were proposing to remove the alert system entirely but there was some push-back.

I'd like to replace it with a generic mechanism that lets anyone with stationary coins over a threshold value broadcast small amounts of data per week to all participating nodes on a parallel p2p network... this would help discourage people from trying to stuff messaging things into the Bitcoin blockchain just to use our network for messages, and would provide a uniform mechanism for any client author to perform alerts... plus it would be a public utility encouraging people to hold Bitcoin (and hold it in their own possession, potentially). (And for Core, we'd make alerts use Script, like elements alpha does so it could use multisig.); but this is currently pretty far down on the priority list for me right now.

legendary
Activity: 1320
Merit: 1007
I'd like to send a big warm middle finger to:

1. All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin. If 8mb was designed to be for 2 years, I guess they will shut up for 1 year, with 4x more transactions in 1mb blocks, and let the fee market develop.

2. Bitcoin companies that tried imposing arbitrary deadlines to manipulate/scare Bitcoin development

3. The folks with alternative Bitcoin forums (built to promote XT/101) for their FUD campaign, and trolling Reddit.com/r/bitcoin with their downvote campaigns. Reddit says thanks for the ad revenue.

4. People who turned their back on Bitcoin Core and contributors saying they were not doing anything for scalability. Even though segwit, CLTV, lightning, and majority of scalability BIP's came from Core contributors.

5. And all the other people who ignorantly got on the XT/BIP101 bandwagon, promoting a implementation/BIP that had no majority consensus which would have resulted in a ugly fork situation, and maybe even Bitcoin's death.

Majority of scalability solutions, optimization code, and new features have came from Bitcoin Core contributors, yet clowns try to discredit Bitcoin Core contributors by pushing agendas like deprecating Core.

These individuals have never contributed to development of the Bitcoin protocol in any significant way, yet they are the first ones to discredit volunteers developing with a conservative attitude.

Now Theymos, can you please add like buttons to bitcointalk.org, and implement the newbie jail again?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Greg Maxwell was kind enough to grace us with BIP101's obituaries.

NB. May I suggest we use what's left of XT's relief fund and build a mausoleum? As a sign of recognition for the fallen martyrs I propose we have some of their names engraved for posterity.

Quote
The Scaling Bitcoin Workshop in HK is just wrapping up. Many fascinating proposals were presented. I think this would be a good time to share my view of the near term arc for capacity increases in the Bitcoin system. I believe we’re in a fantastic place right now and that the community is ready to deliver on a clear forward path with a shared vision that addresses the needs of the system while upholding its values.

I think it’s important to first clearly express some of the relevant principles that I think should guide the ongoing development of the Bitcoin system.

Bitcoin is P2P electronic cash that is valuable over legacy systems because of the monetary autonomy it brings to its users through decentralization. Bitcoin seeks to address the root problem with conventional currency: all the trust that's required to make it work--

-- Not that justified trust is a bad thing, but trust makes systems brittle, opaque, and costly to operate. Trust failures result in systemic  collapses, trust curation creates inequality and monopoly lock-in, and naturally arising trust choke-points can be abused to deny access to
due process. Through the use of cryptographic proof and decentralized networks Bitcoin minimizes and replaces these trust costs.

With the available technology, there are fundamental trade-offs between scale and decentralization. If the system is too costly people will be forced to trust third parties rather than independently enforcing the system's rules. If the Bitcoin blockchain’s resource usage, relative
to the available technology, is too great, Bitcoin loses its competitive advantages compared to legacy systems because validation will be too
costly (pricing out many users), forcing trust back into the system. If capacity is too low and our methods of transacting too inefficient, access to the chain for dispute resolution will be too costly, again pushing trust back into the system.

Since Bitcoin is an electronic cash, it _isn't_ a generic database; the demand for cheap highly-replicated perpetual storage is unbounded,
and Bitcoin cannot and will not satisfy that demand for non-ecash (non-Bitcoin) usage, and there is no shame in that. Fortunately, Bitcoin
can interoperate with other systems that address other applications, and--with luck and hard work--the Bitcoin system can and will satisfy the world's demand for electronic cash.

Fortunately, a lot of great technology is in the works that make navigating the trade-offs easier.

First up: after several years in the making Bitcoin Core has recently merged libsecp256k1, which results in a huge increase in signature
validation performance. Combined with other recent work we're now getting ConnectTip performance 7x higher in 0.12 than in prior versions. This has been a long time coming, and without its anticipation and earlierwork such as headers-first I probably would have been arguing for a
block size decrease last year.  This improvement in the state of the art for widely available production Bitcoin software sets a stage for
some capacity increases while still catching up on our decentralization deficit. This shifts the bottlenecks off of CPU and more strongly onto
propagation latency and bandwidth.

Versionbits (BIP9) is approaching maturity and will allow the Bitcoin network to have multiple in-flight soft-forks. Up until now we’ve had to
completely serialize soft-fork work, and also had no real way to handle a soft-fork that was merged in core but rejected by the network. All
that is solved in BIP9, which should allow us to pick up the pace of improvements in the network. It looks like versionbits will be ready for use in the next soft-fork performed on the network.

The next thing is that, at Scaling Bitcoin Hong Kong, Pieter Wuille presented on bringing Segregated Witness to Bitcoin. What is proposed is a _soft-fork_ that increases Bitcoin's scalability and capacity by reorganizing data in blocks to handle the signatures separately, and in doing so takes them outside the scope of the current blocksize limit.

The particular proposal amounts to a 4MB blocksize increase at worst. The separation allows new security models, such as skipping downloading data you're not going to check and improved performance for lite clients (especially ones with high privacy). The proposal also includes fraud proofs which make violations of the Bitcoin system provable with a compact proof. This completes the vision of "alerts" described in the "Simplified Payment Verification" section of the Bitcoin whitepaper, and would make it possible for lite clients to enforce all the rules of the system (under a new strong assumption that they're not partitioned from someone who would generate the proofs). The design has numerous other features like making further enhancements safer and eliminating signature malleability problems. If widely used this proposal gives a 2x capacity increase (more if multisig is widely used), but most importantly it makes that additional capacity--and future capacity beyond it--safer by increasing efficiency and allowing more trade-offs (in particular, you can use much less bandwidth in exchange for a strong non-partitioning assumption).

There is a working implementation (though it doesn't yet have the fraud proofs) at https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/segwit

(Pieter's talk is at:  transcript:
http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/segregated-witness-and-its-impact-on-scalability/
slides:
https://prezi.com/lyghixkrguao/segregated-witness-and-deploying-it-for-bitcoin/
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fst1IK_mrng#t=36m )

I had good success deploying an earlier (hard-fork) version of segwit in the Elements Alpha sidechain; the soft-fork segwit now proposed
is a second-generation design. And I think it's quite reasonable to get this deployed in a relatively short time frame. The segwit design
calls for a future bitcoinj compatible hardfork to further increase its efficiency--but it's not necessary to reap most of the benefits,and that
means it can happen on its own schedule and in a non-contentious manner.

Going beyond segwit, there has been some considerable activity brewing around more efficient block relay.  There is a collection of proposals,
some stemming from a p2pool-inspired informal sketch of mine and some independently invented, called "weak blocks", "thin blocks" or "soft
blocks".  These proposals build on top of efficient relay techniques (like the relay network protocol or IBLT) and move virtually all the
transmission time of a block to before the block is found, eliminating size from the orphan race calculation. We already desperately need this
at the current block sizes. These have not yet been implemented, but fortunately the path appears clear. I've seen at least one more or less
complete specification, and I expect to see things running using this in a few months. This tool will remove propagation latency from being a problem in the absence of strategic behavior by miners.  Better understanding their behavior when miners behave strategically is an open question.

Concurrently, there is a lot of activity ongoing related to “non-bandwidth” scaling mechanisms. Non-bandwidth scaling mechanisms are tools like transaction cut-through and bidirectional payment channels which increase Bitcoin’s capacity and speed using clever smart contracts
rather than increased bandwidth. Critically, these approaches strike right at the heart of the capacity vs autotomy trade-off, and may allow us to achieve very high capacity and very high decentralization. CLTV (BIP65), deployed a month ago and now active on the network, is very useful for these techniques (essential for making hold-up refunds work); CSV (BIP68/ BIP112) is in the pipeline for merge in core and making good progress (and will likely be ready ahead of segwit). Further Bitcoin protocol improvements for non-bandwidth scaling are in the works: Many of these proposals really want anti-malleability fixes (which would be provided by segwit), and there are checksig flag improvements already tendered and more being worked on, which would be much easier to deploy with segwit. I expect that within six months we could have considerably more features ready for deployment to enable these techniques. Even without them I believe we’ll be in an acceptable position with respect to capacity in the near term, but it’s important to enable them for the future.

(http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/overview-of-bips-necessary-for-lightning
is a relevant talk for some of the wanted network features for Lightning, a bidirectional payment channel proposal which many parties are working on right now; other non-bandwidth improvements discussed in the past include transaction cut-through, which I consider a must-read for the basic intuition about how transaction capacity can be greater than blockchain capacity: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?= topic=281848.0 , though there are many others.)

Further out, there are several proposals related to flex caps or incentive-aligned dynamic block size controls based on allowing miners
to produce larger blocks at some cost. These proposals help preserve the alignment of incentives between miners and general node operators, and prevent defection between the miners from undermining the fee market behavior that will eventually fund security. I think that right now capacity is high enough and the needed capacity is low enough that we don't immediately need these proposals, but they will be critically important long term. I'm planning to help out and drive towards a more concrete direction out of these proposals in the following months.

(Relevant talks include http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-flexible-limit-trading-subsidy-for-larger-blocks/)

Finally--at some point the capacity increases from the above may not be enough.  Delivery on relay improvements, segwit fraud proofs, dynamic block size controls, and other advances in technology will reduce the riskand therefore controversy around moderate block size increase proposals (such as 2/4/8 rescaled to respect segwit's increase). Bitcoin will be able to move forward with these increases when improvements and understanding render their risks widely acceptable relative to the risks of not deploying them. In Bitcoin Core we should keep patches ready to implement them as the need and the will arises, to keep the basic software engineering from being the limiting factor.

Our recent and current progress has well positioned the Bitcoin ecosystem to handle its current capacity needs. I think the above sets out some clear achievable milestones to continue to advance the art in Bitcoin capacity while putting us in a good position for further improvement and evolution.

TL;DR:  I propose we work immediately towards the segwit 4MB block soft-fork which increases capacity and scalability, and recent speedups
and incoming relay improvements make segwit a reasonable risk. BIP9 and segwit will also make further improvements easier and faster to deploy. We’ll continue to set the stage for non-bandwidth-increase-based scaling, while building additional tools that would make bandwidth
increases safer long term. Further work will prepare Bitcoin for further increases, which will become possible when justified, while also providing the groundwork to make them justifiable.

Thanks for your time.

Thank you Greg.

May the XTards RIP.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.

These match my thoughts but more eloquently stated.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.

Not quite. If there are no developers willing to code alternatives, than the mining /economic majority(Those 2 aren't necessarily the same as explained below), and the time and effort to hire developers exceeds what is voluntarily contributed for free there will be a limited amount of choices for the mining and node community to vote upon. Additionally, hashing majority doesn't necessarily equal economic majority as new techniques in cooling , recycling heat and asic production could quickly make the economic majority obsolete. Than there is the impact of exchanges/merchants/nodes  to the miners behaviors.... It simply doesn't devolve into economic majority as you allude to. If anything I would suggest that meritocracy consensus system from talented developers have more influence upon bitcoin than any other category.
A meritocracy consensus system from talented developers as you describe is essentially the same as a technocracy, I would not favor such a governance system. There are in fact developers willing to code alternatives in this case, since changing the blocksize is relatively easy to implement in terms of the code. Furthermore if you are saying that the majority of the mining power is not incentivized to do good for Bitcoin then the underlying value proposition would already be broken, the entire design depends on this presumption.

I think the economic majority is a good term to describe this collective will and power that flows from the nodes/developers/miners/merchants/exchanges/users/media/academia/payment processors etc. Decisions need to be made by the greater wisdom of the crowd and market. I can see that you disagree, I can respect your position, you do argue rationally unlike some other people here. I respectfully disagree, I would urge you to be reminded of history, our quasi democracies of today are far from ideal but they are still far better then most of the governments of the past. I view Bitcoin as being the next stage of this evolution, there are lessons to be learned from the tyrannies of the past. We should not entrust the future of Bitcoin with any organization or small group of people to make decisions for us, no matter how benign we think they might be, eventually power corrupts. This is why this power needs to become more distributed, this is also more inline with the ethos of decentralization and financial freedom within Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.

These match my thoughts but more eloquently stated.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.

Not quite. If there are no developers willing to code alternatives, than the mining /economic majority(Those 2 aren't necessarily the same as explained below), and the time and effort to hire developers exceeds what is voluntarily contributed for free there will be a limited amount of choices for the mining and node community to vote upon. Additionally, hashing majority doesn't necessarily equal economic majority as new techniques in cooling , recycling heat and asic production could quickly make the economic majority obsolete. Than there is the impact of exchanges/merchants/nodes  to the miners behaviors.... It simply doesn't devolve into economic majority as you allude to. If anything I would suggest that meritocracy consensus system from talented developers have more influence upon bitcoin than any other category.

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.

Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.    
I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.
I can actually agree with this. It is all of these different actors that make up the consensus, which I refer to as the economic majority. Proof of work is the best way to measure consensus. The miners act as proxy for the economic majority, since the miners would not go against the economic majority since they are disincentivized to do so, this is part of the game theory and psychology that Bitcoin is build upon.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.

Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.   

I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.
State democracies tend to be representative democracies which are indeed ruled by an economic majority with an illusion the poor and middle class can effect much change. Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.
State democracies are theoretically supposed to be one person one vote, this is not how state democracies mostly function today, they are indeed ruled by the economic majority like you say but with perverted incentives unlike Bitcoin. I think the reason why the ideal of democracy has been perverted in this way is because of the culture, we often do not have the required enlightened culture that is necessary for democracy to function properly as it was intended, at least theoretically. Which is why so many aspects of its governance are failing across the board in our societies today. If Bitcoin is ruled by the economic majority like I think then it can indeed suffer from some of these same problems. Which is where our political culture as a community becomes important. There are also some major differences from state democracies compared to Bitcoin however. Positive incentive and the ability to fork ultimately solving the problem of tyranny of the majority, while furthermore being completely voluntary. These important differences might just solve these age old problems. Even if you do reject the concept of the rule of the economic majority, then you are still left with the fundamental question of who decides.

What I am describing is Bitcoin, this how I think Bitcoin was designed to be.  I also hold the position that if people want a different governance system it should be implemented in an altcoin instead, this alternative vision of Bitcoin should not be implemented onto the Bitcoin we have now. This is why I think the Core developers often talk about the incentive structure of Bitcoin being broken and that they need to fix it, I do not think it is broken, I actually do think it is working now as intended and this is part of the process we need to go through in order for Bitcoin the protocol to grow and evolve into what I suspect most of us want it to become.
Great, I look forward to reading your whitepaper when you create your alt. It may be an interesting read if anything.
I have no interest in creating an alternative cryptocurrency. I was essentially saying that if you want a cryptocurrency that is ruled by mathematics or a technocracy you should attempt to create it yourself, because Bitcoin is ruled by the economic majority. I do like altcoins and I think they are also very important in further advancing the ethos of decentralization and financial freedom.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.

State democracies tend to be representative democracies which are indeed ruled by an economic majority with an illusion the poor and middle class can effect much change. Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.   

What I am describing is Bitcoin, this how I think Bitcoin was designed to be.  I also hold the position that if people want a different governance system it should be implemented in an altcoin instead, this alternative vision of Bitcoin should not be implemented onto the Bitcoin we have now. This is why I think the Core developers often talk about the incentive structure of Bitcoin being broken and that they need to fix it, I do not think it is broken, I actually do think it is working now as intended and this is part of the process we need to go through in order for Bitcoin the protocol to grow and evolve into what I suspect most of us want it to become.


Great, I look forward to reading your whitepaper when you create your alt. It may be an interesting read if anything.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
So I do think that Bitcoin should be governed differently compared to most open source projects. Essentially the general public or what I describe as the economic majority should be making these decisions.

Well I'm not a fan of democracies or "2 wolves and a sheep decide whats for dinner" but if this is your position than you will have a radically different bitcoin where you need to find some means of having the protocol pay for the developers directly rather than enslave volunteers to do the will of the people. You cannot force a volunteer to do something he/she philosophically disagrees with as they will just walk away, become disinterested , or fork the code.

What you describe more closely resembles DPOS / Bitshares... where there is voting intrinsic in the protocol and developers/representatives funding is paid through the voting process.

Perhaps you should sell your bitcoin and take up that , or fork bitcoin and convert it to DPOS/PoW hybrid.
Exactly we can agree that we do have fundamentally different ideologies when it comes how Bitcoin should be governed. In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system. What I am describing is Bitcoin, this how I think Bitcoin was designed to be. I also hold the position that if people want a different governance system it should be implemented in an altcoin instead, this alternative vision of Bitcoin should not be implemented onto the Bitcoin we have now. This is why I think the Core developers often talk about the incentive structure of Bitcoin being broken and that they need to fix it, I do not think it is broken, I actually do think it is working now as intended and this is part of the process we need to go through in order for Bitcoin the protocol to grow and evolve into what I suspect most of us want it to become.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
It is not my fault that you seem to be unable to understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought.



The lulz don't stop. What a charlatan  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
So I do think that Bitcoin should be governed differently compared to most open source projects. Essentially the general public or what I describe as the economic majority should be making these decisions.

Well I'm not a fan of democracies or "2 wolves and a sheep decide whats for dinner" but if this is your position than you will have a radically different bitcoin where you need to find some means of having the protocol pay for the developers directly rather than enslave volunteers to do the will of the people. You cannot force a volunteer to do something he/she philosophically disagrees with as they will just walk away, become disinterested , or fork the code.

What you describe more closely resembles DPOS / Bitshares... where there is voting intrinsic in the protocol and developers/representatives funding is paid through the voting process.

Perhaps you should sell your bitcoin and take up that , or fork bitcoin and convert it to DPOS/PoW hybrid.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Veritas Sapere trying to simultaneously claim that:

  • Economic majority got the wrong answer to the question of the blocksize increase
  • The will of the economic majority should be respected
  • Veritas Sapere can simply assert who the economic majority are and what their position is at any given time
  • BIP101 is the worst scaling scheme
  • BIP101 isn't such a bad scaling scheme
  • Soft forks are a "disgusting" abuse of power
  • Devs are free to implement soft forks as they please
  • Veritas Sapere does not hold contradictory and/or hypocritical views

Any more, VS? It's an interesting list so far, is it possible that you could make it even more logically incoherent?
There is not a single hypocrisy in my position that you have successfully pointed out. I also do not think the economic majority is presently wrong in regards to the question of the blocksize. I have already countered the other accusations of hypocrisy. It is not my fault that you seem to be unable to understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought.

I will attempt to explain it again in a more general form. Sometimes people have the right to do things even though these things might be wrong, this is not contradictory, this is respecting freedom and having tolerance. For instance I respect freedom of speech, however there are many things that people can say that are outright horrible and wrong, like hate speech for example. However in order to preserve freedom of speech we need to respect other peoples right to do things that we consider to be wrong. We can also apply this to the censorship in the Bitcoin community. It was wrong for Theymos to censor reddit, yet he did have the right to do so on the forum that he controlled. Can you see how this in fact is not a contradiction but a feature of a good ethical philosophy.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Veritas Sapere trying to simultaneously claim that:

  • Economic majority got the wrong answer to the question of the blocksize increase
  • The will of the economic majority should be respected
  • Veritas Sapere can simply assert who the economic majority are and what their position is at any given time
  • BIP101 is the worst scaling scheme
  • BIP101 isn't such a bad scaling scheme
  • Soft forks are a "disgusting" abuse of power
  • Devs are free to implement soft forks as they please
  • Veritas Sapere does not hold contradictory and/or hypocritical views

Any more, VS? It's an interesting list so far, is it possible that you could make it even more logically incoherent?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Which is essentially what I am doing, reminding people that they do have this freedom of choice. The freedom we have depends on our collective political culture, this is in some ways similar to state democracies. If we see the proof of work concensus as a type of election or vote. Then it can be argued that having an election with only one party is totalitarianism. Having only one choice is the equivalent of having no choice. This is why we need more viable and respected alternative implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, in order to better and more accurately reflect the will of the economic majority.
This is all fine ... but why use the word totalitarian when those devs are standing shoulder to shoulder with you asking for more implementations and contributing parties? Have any devs suggested otherwise, do you have any evidence that they don't want other implementations?
This is a good question, I will compile a collection of writings attempting to prove this point in regards to Core's mentality in terms of governance. Will take me some time to get it all together, was planning on doing this anyway. I am a bit busy at moment however, but you can expect me to post this in the next few days.

In the meantime I will simply just post this question I asked Greg Maxwell:

If hypothetically more then seventy five percent of the miners supported BIP101 after January. Would Core recognize the will of the economic majority and implement BIP101? If you would implement BIP101 under such conditions you will have my full support. However if you intend to ignore the economic majority and still attempt to push your own agenda while circumventing and undermining the proof of work consensus then I will accuse Core of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it Greg Maxwell, can you answer this question?
He could have simply answered this question and he would have gained a vocal ally, he could still respond now. Instead he responded by criticizing the proof of work consensus while at the same time not actually answering my question, besides from saying that he will stop working on Bitcoin completely if he does not get his way. This alone is enough for me not to support Core anymore, since I would like the implementation that I support to follow and respect the proof of work consensus instead, since I do believe in the greater wisdom of the crowd and the market compared to decisions made by a small group of technical experts.
hero member
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Merit: 500
There is no hypocrisy there. I still disagree with how BIP65 was implemented. I also still disagree with RBF, since it weakens zero confirmation in favor of strengthening layer two payment channels. They did this without the appropriate time and consensus that I think should have been appropriate for such a contentious change, considering their previous position on contentious issues I also find their actions hypocritical.
RBF had 100% consensus within the dev list(acks all the way down)... Are you suggesting developers petition non developers for specific code changes where the general public can make decisions upon complex topics they barely understand and than demand the developers(volunteers) carry out their will?
This is madness! Is there any open source projects that work this way you know of?
I do think this is unprecedented indeed. I think RBF should have been implemented as a hard fork giving the market the choice this way. Bitcoin is far more political then most open source projects, we also have proof of work consensus. So I do think that Bitcoin should be governed differently compared to most open source projects. Essentially the general public or what I describe as the economic majority should be making these decisions. These are fundamental questions of who decides, I do not think Bitcoin should become a technocracy, you are somewhat proving my point here of the opposing ideology that I am attempting to counter.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
Which is essentially what I am doing, reminding people that they do have this freedom of choice. The freedom we have depends on our collective political culture, this is in some ways similar to state democracies. If we see the proof of work concensus as a type of election or vote. Then it can be argued that having an election with only one party is totalitarianism. Having only one choice is the equivalent of having no choice. This is why we need more viable and respected alternative implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, in order to better and more accurately reflect the will of the economic majority.

This is all fine ... but why use the word totalitarian when those devs are standing shoulder to shoulder with you asking for more implementations and contributing parties? Have any devs suggested otherwise, do you have any evidence that they don't want other implementations?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I will get around to re-posting the conversation I had with gmaxwell here, I can show you exactly where this fundemental disagreement lies. I do actually agree with you though. Core can implement whatever they want to implement regardless of what the economic majority wants, however it is important that the economic majority knows that they do have this choice, and that they do not adhere to more totalitarian philosophies in regards to Core. This is a question of our political culture within the Bitcoin community, which I still think is going through a awakening and self realization. Which is why I also keep quoting RIP Rowan about how we can only lose our freedom if we become convinced to give up it. The same is true for pre-existing political theory, power always comes from the people, ultimatly it is the people that choose to give up their freedom, and once surrendered it is not as easy to regain.

To answer your question brg444, I will continue to support the Bitcoin network and respect the proof of work consensus. Bitcoin unlimited and Bitcoin XT still operate on the same blockchain as Core does, without a mining majority BIP101 will also not fork the network, we are still both part of the same economy. Therefore in the absence of BIP101 forking the network through proof of work consensus, I still de facto support any blocksize increase Core implements.

We must have different definitions of totalitarian. I don't find an open source project repository that allows for pull requests from anyone , Complete transparency in code, advocates for competing implementations and the right for people to ultimately choose, encourages participation, criticism and testing to be totalitarian. I don't understand how you square those polar opposites.

To be fair the closest I have seen to be "totalitarian" like behavior is some censorship here and on reddit. Spotty censorship that appears to have lessoned, but that wasn't coming from any devs.

I suppose we can be clearer by keep repeating to people Bitcoin is open source protocol where people can come and go as they please and select their implementation they prefer over and over again ad naseum. Would that suffice, or what do you expect?
Which is essentially what I am doing, reminding people that they do have this freedom of choice. The freedom we have depends on our collective political culture, this is in some ways similar to state democracies. If we see the proof of work concensus as a type of election or vote. Then it can be argued that having an election with only one party is totalitarianism. Having only one choice is the equivalent of having no choice. This is why we need more viable and respected alternative implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, in order to better and more accurately reflect the will of the economic majority.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I do actually agree with you though. Core can implement whatever they want to implement regardless of what the economic majority wants

I am disgusted by what is happening now with Core and RBF, to push such a contentious change without any debate, voting, time or even miner consensus. It is truly horrendous especially considering the harm that RBF can do to Bitcoin. It is also highly hypocritical especially considering their reasoning for not implementing a blocksize increase. I hope that once Core is forked out of power we will be able to reverse these changes and repair the damage that has been done here.

What Core did with the recent hard fork is also rather disgusting, they used the same version number for the blocks as BIP101, they did this on purpose in order to undermine BIP101. This represents a deliberate move by Core in order to circumvent the legitimate decision making process of proof of work.

They should have introduced BIP65 using a hard fork, since introducing it as a soft fork allows them to circumvent the processes of consensus that a hard fork would have necessitated.
I am disgusted by your hypocrisy
There is no hypocrisy there. I still disagree with how BIP65 was implemented. I also still disagree with RBF, since it weakens zero confirmation in favor of strengthening layer two payment channels. They did this without the appropriate time and consensus that I think should have been appropriate for such a contentious change, considering their previous position on contentious issues I also find their actions hypocritical.

You expressed these sentiments because you did not understand what it is you were talking about at the time. I see you still don't.

It's one thing to pretend that you philosophically disagree with code implementation but forming an opinion on something necessarily requires that you understand the issues.

In both instances it was proven that your knee-jerk partisan reaction was based on ignorance of the technical details.

You are simply another disingenuous little shill who I hope we can fork off the community for our own good sake.
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