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Topic: [BitFunder] Ukyo.Loan - Paying 0.05% daily. - page 19. (Read 74717 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I wonder if it is a better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue rather than go in order. The way it is now it means some people will get all their money back and others will get totally screwed. People don't know whether they are going to get 100% or 0% which creates a panic causing people to sell at a huge loss. For example, if everyone in the queue knew they would currently get, say at least 90% then the market could stabilize.


I think also that dividends should be paid in the meantime. The money is still going to the investors. Lack of dividends is just going to cause everyone to dump shares! That said, ukyo has been 2 days late several times before. I am not jumping to the conclusion that dividends have stopped unless I hear from him.

Yes, I agree that it could be better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue. That's why I'm asking for numbers so we can decide for ourselves. The holders of bonds should vote what to do.

Your argument on dividend assumes that he can afford to redeem almost 100% of face value and dividends for as long as there are unredeemed bonds. I hope it's true but I don't really know. If there is a risk he can't afford to do that, then I don't care about dividends at all. In that case the only thing I care about is the amount of BTC he gives for every redeemed bond.

If I get my bonds redeemed faster with no dividends rather than risking it and possibly receiving a lot less than face value later, then I vote for no dividends.

Well to put things in perspective, dividends cost him 1 btc a day. The total value of all issued shares is 2,000 btc. Even if he pays dividends for a month while he redeems, that's only 30 btc. And he isn't paying dividends on the redeemed shares of course. I don't think that extra couple of btc will slow him down too much. But stopping dividends without any explanation will cause everyone to try to request redemption. As long as there are still dividends there will be some people that will hold on to shares making the redemption queue shorter.

Regardless of what he decides to do, I think we need to get more information regarding his economic situation and planned timeframe. As long as bitfunder and weexchange are still active he still has money. Nothing short of a personal bankruptcy will stop him from redeeming shares. There are shareholders with large enough holdings that I'm sure they would sue in the situation where it looked like he totally defaulted.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.
Ukyo was not expecting to have to liquidate perhaps 1000 coins or more in such a short amount of time. I imagine it will take months to work his way through the queue of redemption requests.

Well, he could've expected a massive amount of redemption requests when he announced the blocking of US customers on BitFunder and the verification requirement for the rest of the world.

Yes, I'm sure he knew that was going to happen. But the fact that he had to block US customers I'm sure was a big surprised to him.

I'm guessing he was faced with an ultimatum: block US customers by the end of the month or get shut down.

If it was up to him he would have shut off US customers so quickly.

member
Activity: 108
Merit: 10
I wonder if it is a better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue rather than go in order. The way it is now it means some people will get all their money back and others will get totally screwed. People don't know whether they are going to get 100% or 0% which creates a panic causing people to sell at a huge loss. For example, if everyone in the queue knew they would currently get, say at least 90% then the market could stabilize.


I think also that dividends should be paid in the meantime. The money is still going to the investors. Lack of dividends is just going to cause everyone to dump shares! That said, ukyo has been 2 days late several times before. I am not jumping to the conclusion that dividends have stopped unless I hear from him.

Yes, I agree that it could be better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue. That's why I'm asking for numbers so we can decide for ourselves. The holders of bonds should vote what to do.

Your argument on dividend assumes that he can afford to redeem almost 100% of face value and dividends for as long as there are unredeemed bonds. I hope it's true but I don't really know. If there is a risk he can't afford to do that, then I don't care about dividends at all. In that case the only thing I care about is the amount of BTC he gives for every redeemed bond.

If I get my bonds redeemed faster with no dividends rather than risking it and possibly receiving a lot less than face value later, then I vote for no dividends.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.
Ukyo was not expecting to have to liquidate perhaps 1000 coins or more in such a short amount of time. I imagine it will take months to work his way through the queue of redemption requests.

Well, he could've expected a massive amount of redemption requests when he announced the blocking of US customers on BitFunder and the verification requirement for the rest of the world.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I see that Ukyo stopped paying dividends. If he is putting every penny he gets into redeeming rather than paying dividends, then it's a good thing and he is on the right track.

As I said before, I'm prepared for less than face value and no dividends rather than dragging this any longer than necessary.

We all know the situation is bad, and I hope Ukyo would come clean and tell how it really is, so we can all decide what we want to do next. I can see people are already getting rid of bonds for 75% of face value which means many start to lose hope.

I am saving asset list from BitFunder every few days. I haven't yet had time to analyze movements. I hope to see some address constantly receiving shares, Ukyo's account that has redeemed bonds. But of course it would be best if Ukyo could tell the numbers, number of redeemed shares so far, number of shares requested to be redeemed, the number of redeemed shares by day, income from his projects (BitFunder, Weexchange etc), other BTC holdings that can be liquidated.

With the numbers we could analyze estimated time to redeem, risks and other.

I also hope information from anyone who got their bonds redeemed. How many, when requested redeeming, when got the BTC. mpr20rt can you tell that?

I wonder if it is a better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue rather than go in order. The way it is now it means some people will get all their money back and others will get totally screwed. People don't know whether they are going to get 100% or 0% which creates a panic causing people to sell at a huge loss. For example, if everyone in the queue knew they would currently get, say at least 90% then the market could stabilize.


I think also that dividends should be paid in the meantime. The money is still going to the investors. Lack of dividends is just going to cause everyone to dump shares! That said, ukyo has been 2 days late several times before. I am not jumping to the conclusion that dividends have stopped unless I hear from him.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.

Why would TradeFortress say that? Shares are being redeemed, just at a very slow rate. Just look at this thread, and the announcements from ukyo regarding that.

Ukyo was not expecting to have to liquidate perhaps 1000 coins or more in such a short amount of time. I imagine it will take months to work his way through the queue of redemption requests.
And dividends have been late many times before but they always catch up. There is no evidence that he has defaulted.

And is TradeFortress implying that BTCInvest holds ukyo.loan shares and ukyo.loan also holds BTCInvest? That seems a little funny.
member
Activity: 108
Merit: 10
I see that Ukyo stopped paying dividends. If he is putting every penny he gets into redeeming rather than paying dividends, then it's a good thing and he is on the right track.

As I said before, I'm prepared for less than face value and no dividends rather than dragging this any longer than necessary.

We all know the situation is bad, and I hope Ukyo would come clean and tell how it really is, so we can all decide what we want to do next. I can see people are already getting rid of bonds for 75% of face value which means many start to lose hope.

I am saving asset list from BitFunder every few days. I haven't yet had time to analyze movements. I hope to see some address constantly receiving shares, Ukyo's account that has redeemed bonds. But of course it would be best if Ukyo could tell the numbers, number of redeemed shares so far, number of shares requested to be redeemed, the number of redeemed shares by day, income from his projects (BitFunder, Weexchange etc), other BTC holdings that can be liquidated.

With the numbers we could analyze estimated time to redeem, risks and other.

I also hope information from anyone who got their bonds redeemed. How many, when requested redeeming, when got the BTC. mpr20rt can you tell that?
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.
member
Activity: 102
Merit: 10
Last dividents received on 2013-10-23 11:43:00... Is this right?

Yes, that is what I saw too, until this moment.
legendary
Activity: 1397
Merit: 1019
Last dividents received on 2013-10-23 11:43:00... Is this right?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.
Thanks for information.
Are you going to redeem all shares before the deadline of Oct 31st?
If not, will you keep a way out also for those with accounts not veried on WeExchange?

This is what I want to know too. If my shares can not be redeemed by Oct 31, can I still receive dividends and withdraw the coins earned in the meantime?

And I know I won't be able to buy or sell, but will I be able to use the transfer feature to transfer the shares to another party (to someone with a verified account) if I wish to get rid of the shares that way? Or will that be disabled to?
full member
Activity: 159
Merit: 100
I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.
Thanks for information.
Are you going to redeem all shares before the deadline of Oct 31st?
If not, will you keep a way out also for those with accounts not veried on WeExchange?
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Got my shares redeemed without any hassle! The trouble I guess is getting through to him. I bet his being bombarded by PMs on all fronts..
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.
Thanks for your response.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.
member
Activity: 108
Merit: 10
Yes, we're really fucked here. Ukyo is an idiot and actually we who invested are also idiots because we didn't ask for any proof.

His loan is not covered, he lied especially about this "This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business, investments, or opportunities."

It is tied to the success of bitfunder 100%. Now that exchange rate of bitcoin is growing like crazy, his ability to redeem all the shares becomes smaller by day. If it shoots to 500-1000 usd then forget about your bitcoins, they are gone. He'll never be able to pay 1-2 million dollars, he is almost broke.

Ukyo must come clean about his holdings and redeem as many shares as possible as fast as possible. Stop paying dividends mr rich guy and put every fucking penny you get to redeeming. Sell all your BTC investments and redeem as much as you can.

I am prepared for getting less than face value and no dividends for some time. Once Ukyo tells as what the real situations is, we'll vote what to do.

You don't want this to drag into the future, because the longer it takes for Ukyo to redeem, the less you'll get in the future, believe me!

Same thing with Graet.Loan, I'll write a post there too soon.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Won't the recent rise in bitcoin price make it harder for Ukyo to cover the redemption requests? I'm assuming that he has converted the bitcoins from the bond sales into fiat in order to invest it. Now he has to buy back twice as much in terms of fiat as he invested to but back the bitcoins to redeem the bonds. In the meantime it will be harder for him to cover the dividends as Bitfunder's profits in terms of bitcoin will drop as the price of securities drop to balance

I'm not trying to scare anyone. I just think these are reasonable concerns that people should be aware of.

I'm interested in hearing what Ukyo has been investing in. It's hard to find many opportunities that will

I'm assuming a bit of the money has gone into Bitfunder itself.

member
Activity: 203
Merit: 10
The World’s First Blockchain Core
Ukyo said a week or so ago in the IRC chat, that there is a very long list of people waiting for redemption and he does not have the money. So redemption is not happening any time soon. I sold all of my shares with a small loss at that time, cause I have no interest in verifying my account. If you are holding large amounts that you can't sell without huge losses you just need to continue holding them and hope that the site goes well so Ukyo is able to pay the interest.

What are the US citizens who will no longer be able to trade in a week or so supposed to do?

Looking at the asset list, I'm the largest individual holder of ukyo.loan. There is no way I could sell all my shares in a week even if I wanted to. I wish Ukyo would say something here so we know what is going on. Second hand reports of something that might have been said on IRC is not a good way to communicate with your shareholders. I'm hoping that at least I can remain in the redemption queue after the end of the month even if my account remains unverified.



Why do you believe you won't still be able to redeem after Nov 1?

"Users will be able to withdraw holdings and Bitcoins from their BitFunder accounts before and after November 1, 2013."

"As of December 2, 2013, BitFunder will initiate a transfer from the BitFunder site to the respective issuer(s) of any remaining shares held by any users that BitFunder knows to be U.S. persons or who did not obtain "Verified" status by December 1, 2013, and will provide the issuer(s) with the public bitcoin address associated with the user account. After transfer, each user will need to work with the issuer(s) with respect to the future treatment of the shares."


Yes this situation sucks and Ukyo has been very very odd in his refusal to reply (assuming he can) but I'm holding on to the shares until they are fully redeemed by Ukyo.  Same applies to Graet.
member
Activity: 80
Merit: 10
Ukyo said a week or so ago in the IRC chat, that there is a very long list of people waiting for redemption and he does not have the money. So redemption is not happening any time soon. I sold all of my shares with a small loss at that time, cause I have no interest in verifying my account. If you are holding large amounts that you can't sell without huge losses you just need to continue holding them and hope that the site goes well so Ukyo is able to pay the interest.

What are the US citizens who will no longer be able to trade in a week or so supposed to do?

Looking at the asset list, I'm the largest individual holder of ukyo.loan. There is no way I could sell all my shares in a week even if I wanted to. I wish Ukyo would say something here so we know what is going on. Second hand reports of something that might have been said on IRC is not a good way to communicate with your shareholders. I'm hoping that at least I can remain in the redemption queue after the end of the month even if my account remains unverified.



A few options:

1. Sell at loss

2. Find someone to hold them for you

3. Find someone to buy them from you for 0.01

4. Find someone to buy them from you for a lower price than 0.01 with the promise of paying you the difference whenever Ukyo redeems it.

Each one has its risks, I would personally do a combination of all of them, except for the 3rd which seems to be the hardest. I can myself do the 2nd and 4th for you but you have no reason to trust me so you probably won't.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Ukyo said a week or so ago in the IRC chat, that there is a very long list of people waiting for redemption and he does not have the money. So redemption is not happening any time soon. I sold all of my shares with a small loss at that time, cause I have no interest in verifying my account. If you are holding large amounts that you can't sell without huge losses you just need to continue holding them and hope that the site goes well so Ukyo is able to pay the interest.

What are the US citizens who will no longer be able to trade in a week or so supposed to do?

Looking at the asset list, I'm the largest individual holder of ukyo.loan. There is no way I could sell all my shares in a week even if I wanted to. I wish Ukyo would say something here so we know what is going on. Second hand reports of something that might have been said on IRC is not a good way to communicate with your shareholders. I'm hoping that at least I can remain in the redemption queue after the end of the month even if my account remains unverified.

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