Topic: BitMarket.Eu has closed down - page 19. (Read 204185 times)

indeed it is also very important that the new site is legally independent from the old site. It was my main concern and a precondition, so any tries to transfer over liabilities to new owners is impossible and will not happen. For this reason there will be a new domain registered, new website, completely new ownership all users have to sign up completely from scratch. And thats it. Just another bitcoin site as they would open everyday anywhere in the world.

The profit of the new site can be distributed however the new users decide. We could donate to children in Africa so they can buy food.... But no, instead the new oweners simply decide that profits are used 50% to pay back frozen coins (this does not create any liability transfer) and the other 50% will go to investors according their aribrarily definable share. Using frozen coins as arbitrary shares also does not create any liabilities towards old debts, as shares are simply created by an agreement among these people.

According to my legal advisor that is fine, if someone has a different opinion please let me know ;-)

The plan is indeed to reopen the site under new ownership. But a transfer cannot take place over night.

At the moment there is still the "follow up communication" going on, as described above Maciej has sent out the relevant emails. We now have 91 people expressing their will to "invest" and we should now determine in the most democratic way on who wants to take which role an which responsibility and/or who wants to stay "passive" investor so an efficient decision making is still possible.

I myself cannot take ownership of this project alone, i still have a full time job plus a family and even though i am willing to invest a lot of my free time, support is needed for managing, administering and especially developing the new site.


On our kick-off meeting in two weeks on 15th we will try to clarify who does what and who gets which responsibilities and this would also be a good time to transfer ownership of the site, AFTER we received all necessary information needed.


And well, for the stolen coins unfortunately i cannot say much, but i think they just go on top of all the rest of lost coins..., debts are not going any lower. Maybe someone has a better proposal.

That's why I don't want to be an investor - I just want guarantees that over X period of time they will make regular payments to me for the bit-coins that the initial owner stole.  I have no interest in being an investor.

I hope the new "owners" are getting a very VERY expensive, professional and ruthless lawyer(s) to draw up the contract that says that, whenever they take over the website, that they are free from all the shenanigans over the stolen, lost and hacked coins. Because I am p-r-e-t-t-y sure that there are a lot of people just waiting for confirmation that all contracts are signed with the new owners, so that they can press charges, sue and get their money back, because obviously they won't get anything from maver.

And since the new owners are residents in better judicial system countries such as Germany, Finland, and others, it would be much easier for anyone to sue.

I read in an earlier post that that people would have a hard time to prove in court that bitcoins are "money" and they have value and should be compensated for the stolen coins. You can treat bitcoins as any other "good" in an economics sense. Example: Some people trade Teddy Bears, and some of them are worth $500k. A "good" is a "good" .. And since people trade on it, it could be toilet paper as far as the courts are concerned, if there was proof of such value. And with all these sites and exchanges, that would be no problem. Now suing over a "good" is one thing, suing over "money" is at a total different level. That will be courts only challenge.

So, new investors, ESPECIALLY the ones that are oblivious about the questionnaire, and opted to "invest" in this.. You better prepare, and seek legal advice.. because if even 1 person sue, the courts can come after your money too.. all the lawyers need to do if find out who has the most in the bank and concentrate on them.

Oh btw, you willingly invested in a business proven to be a ponzi scheme. One can argue.. what were your true intentions..?? Perhaps you saw an opportunity to do the same and get away with it, just like maver did.. I mean, that's quick money, right? And no one is liable? That won't stick.

I'm all for the site re-opening.. but boy, 18,000BTC is serious.. I'm not hating.. I just don't think a lot of these people fully understand what it means "investing in a business" or being part of one, and liable.

Good luck yall.

 

Maybe you answered already - but I didn't find it - what happened with the last (about 600) bitcoins what are stolen lately from the site? You wrote somewhere it's possible that you get back the coins! Do you know, WHO take them? And WHERE are the coins now?

Another question what qualifies this network manager to perform an internal security audit? Is he recognised by any professional bodies?

i.e. does he have any of the following certifications and been working in the industry for over 5 years as a minimum perferably 10 with at least one enterprise level company?

CISA

CISM

CISSP

GIAC

No offense taken. I am still involved because it's the best way in the short-term to go forward. I know the site, the code and whole operations. After the investor group take back the site, I will not be involved anymore directly (I may work as a consultant for the service, but that's up to the new management to decide), but for the time being, there is no other way really if we want things to proceed in a timely manner.

Please rest assured that I will not have any access to people's Bitcoins at any point from now on.

What guarantees do you have that I will not dissapear? Well, it's hard for me to imagine such guarantee. One thing is I didn't do it already, even in the event of latest hack, and I'm not going to.

Apart from a professional network manager that is looking in to server security right now, there will be security audits/penetration tests done by independent third party company, as soon as the new site is ready to launch.

No offence I have a few simple questions:

Why are you still involved with the site going forward?  - you being associated with the site just tarnishes the whole thing.

If there are plans for you to be completely removed from having access even at an operational level when will those take effect? - no offence I would not be comfortable with you having access to the server the site runs on.

What guarantees do we have that you will not disappear should people wish to take legal action against you as an individual?

Will the new owners get an actual reputable company in to audit your code and current infrastructure to deem how secure it is?

Will regular pen tests be run by a reputable vendor going forward?

I just finished sending update emails. Each creditor should receive today a detailed information about the current situation, our near future plans and an update regarding reimbursement of his funds (based on questionaire answer we received from this user). In two weeks we plan an "official" investor meeting in Helsinki, Finland, on which we'll discuss in details how to move on. Anyone who wants to become an active investor in the project is welcome to participate. For details, please contact Martin (mralbi).

meanwhile...

i want my two bitcoin back !!!

@mralbi - You are very good in explaining everything, in a really easy and calm manner. I didn't have a lot of coins in that site, and at that time I was only starting the get involved with BTC so I'm glad all this happened when it did.. but I'm glad/happy that you are behind this attempt to come up with a solution etc (either is "forced" as you lost a lot of coins or not).

I have accepted already that I won't get my coins back, so getting anything at all will be a bonus.

I also think that going to liquidation is (for lack of a nicer word) stupid. The guy obviously made a mistake. He tried to fix it, and because of that it became a ponzi scheme. He came here and admitted to all, and is trying and keep trying to find solutions to fix it. He's made a mistake.. let him try to fix it.. specially now that he has many more excellent brains behind him. Also if he goes to liquidation, what are we/you going to get? Who's going to pay for your lawyer, in Poland!

I don't know.. I believe in second chances, because I had one and it completely changed my life. I'm sure this will/is making him grow, and better things will happen for him and everyone involved.

Good luck everyone. Keep us updated. I don't post a lot but I check this several times a day to keep in the loop.

if the coins are "frozen" or "boiled" or "lost" indeed does not make any difference.

And whatever.... i also agree there will not be much real profit from this project and it would need a miracle to pay back lost coins in any reasonable time... BUT
for me the chance is simply that now many stakeholders can really find together and set up a new project from scratch while some skilled developers are "forced" from the debt situation to help out and develop a new website that meets all the requirements we (the "forced creditors") have in mind!. I know the debts are high and everyone is right to be upset...., but this is really a one time chance to set up everthing from scratch, exactly the way we want it to be. Maciej is willing to cooperate and thats far better than any emotional discussion on how bad everyone is.

Maciej knows what i am talking about, i gave him also a hard time some time in between with also shouting and so on and we had many differences on how to handle th situation etc *g But in the end my proposal is: lets stick together and start this new project not only for the sake of paying back frozen coins, but also for the bitcoin community (=thats us) and lets make the best out of the situation. At least i am willing to invest my little spare time i have plus some money (in addition to "lost/frozen" coins) to make it happen and i would be glad more people would like to join.

Lets differentiate between fact and fantasy. fact is bitmarket owes its customers about 800 000 Polish Zloty (18 000 BTC when the company went belly up). Fantasy, is quote . I take this option any day but its a dream and nothing else.
Personally i could not care less if he gets a life sentence. I dont know the guy and live thousands of k's away from him. All i want is all my BTC back  
Everybody faces the real possibility of a prison term if he steps out of the systems guide lines including Maciej. i did not stop him or others to not play by the ruels. It boils down to two options
a; Maciej works for us.
b: we work for Maciej (jail).

It seems like a compromise will be a small miracle. The only thing i can invest is my money owed.

The break-in (walk-in, what ever u want to call it) for the 624 BTC does not make the task easier.

On the bright side there is new and innovative things happen with BTCs all the time.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57570925-38/need-bitcoins-this-atm-takes-dollars-and-funds-your-account/

 

There are no "frozen" coins as already explained above. I think if you have told them that they have no frozen coins but just coins that are gone, their answer would have been quite different!

I can't think of any reason that will make an investor burn their money in such a way. May be the only reason I can think of is if the purpose of such an investment is to bail out current owner! From every 100 stolen bitcoins 30 bitcoins will be "invested" back, so everybody will be happy or at least have hope that their "frozen" coins will be unfrozen at sometime next century.

well, the site is already closed down, liquidation means simply paying out of current assets and thats it. But it will not happen, we have requested from everyone with frozen coins an answer on how to proceed and we have received enough support to try set up a new site instead of going through the bankruptcy procedure. The people that do not want to cooperate will be handled individually. But as a next step there will be a kick-off meeting in Helsinki on 15th of March with the investors on all details for the new site,  the official invitation will follow soon i hope. And yes, it is public unless 100 people intend to come *g , so everyone can join us and discuss the plans.

The investment sums unfortunatley come soley from our "private" money, so we cannot expect any wonders and we have a tight budget and all support is welcome. But as already said, the "official" communication(s) will follow hopefully tomorrow at latest

I am waiting to see how this unfolds. The recent theft of coins is due to negligence of the owner and not even using basic security procedures for the site - you never have phpmyadmin open to the world at least lock it down to your own ip address or better still use a vpn and connect to the LAN of your server that way to admin the database.  The initial theft of coins again down to the admin who stole the coins in a very real sense.

If a satisfactory solution is not found where I am able to get all my lost coins back I may pursue the legal route - I may not get anything back but at least  he learns an important lesson and hopefully serves a prison term.

I noticed he uses a Mac for development from the web logs so I'm calling dibbs on that when it is sold  

I hope customers were not intentionally misguided to believe that "liquidation" under bankruptcy procedure means dismantling of the service and website?

When will you understand that there are no "frozen" coins or "fried" coins or any other special kind of coins? Your coins are gone! There are no coins at all. What is left is only the obligation of the current owner! He will give nothing back to you until he faces the real possibility of serving a prison term.

Yes it is well know for centuries that i can expect less than 10% return of my investment in a bankruptcy procedure. so for my 110.9 frozen bitcoins i would receive in a best case scenario 70 - 90 Euro. 110.9 x 10.56 x 0.06 
10.56 is the last closing price before the company shut up shop. court and solicitors expenses would come of too. so if i am lucky i get an get an ice-cream for my 110.9 BTC

we decided not to go this way, as the majority of the users did not want to go into liquidation, but expressed their interest to cooperate with the new investors instead. If you are one of the few non-cooperative persons, you should send in an "official" claim to Maciej including best possible evidence on how much you think you should get paid back (in FIAT currency, not bitcoin) and we will check your case and handle it individually.  (depending on how much coins you have frozen etc.). More information will follow within the next days I assume.

Well, there is only one way you can be sure about that. It is well known for centuries. It is called bankruptcy procedure!