Topic: BitMarket.Eu has closed down - page 18. (Read 204282 times)

Your question is of two parts that are excluding each other! How will you GET the money if there is actually nothing there?

The question is: Would you GET some money as a result of the lawsuit against current owner or you'll get nothing but just another promise in the queue of broken promises?

The cost of the lawyer will be paid from ALL bitmarket customers proportionally to their lost bitcoins, so it is not such a big deal. I'm pretty confident that if you've included such a question in the questionnaire the answer of the majority would have been "yes". I don't really understand why are you acting as M4v3R's lawyer?

you can also sue him for having two ears and a nose, but the question is if you would get through with it. At least what I have seen from (german) cases from the past, e.g. cases where precious metals were involved or stocks that gained massively in value etc. the courts have always denied these kind of cases for the "loss of opportunity" part.

But this is anyway just a side problem. The main issue is in my opinion: No matter how right you are and whatever the court will approve, the question is: Would you actually GET the money, or would you simply get nothing because there is nothing there?  Your lawyer will not care, he will always get your money from YOU and he will get it first before he will start doing anything... ;-)

BTW, you could also try without lawyer and see how far you get without polish language skills


But please, do not believe me, just do your own research, i am just trying to help

Of course. All bitmarket customers will be more than happy if they are reimbursed in euro, dollars, or whatever at the bitcoin exchange rate! In addition current owner can also be sued over missed opportunity!

Well, thats what i thought in the beginning, too. He owes you bitcoins and you can sue him to to get your bitcoins back. But thats simply a wrong assumtion.

This is not the case, as the bitcoins got lost and are not there anymore. Therefore, from legal point of view he does not owe you these bitcoins anymore, but he has to reimburse the inflicted damage in EURO (or whatever fiat currency applies) that was caused by the loss. And this makes a HUGE difference.

It is the same as if you buy a car and the car burns down because the seller "accidentially" burned it down or lost it because the car was stolen or whatever AFTER your purchase. in this case you cannot demand the car anymore, but the seller has to reimburse the amount in Euro (not in cars).


I only have a german source for this case, namely § 326 I BGB, but in polish law it should be the same.

!?...


I didn't understand what mralbi said. Perhaps, he doesn't understand it either? Would you care to elaborate why you don't legally own any bitcoins to your customers? It doesn't really matter that you are not a bank. Thieves don't need to be a bank to commit a crime?

and one additional comment:

If you go to the police, they will take two hours of your precious time and write a nice protocol that is needed for some crime statistics only. After 2 months you get a reply that investigations are stopped, as your tiny sum is not worth the effort to start further investigations and they tell you to take a lawyer, as there is no public interest in the case. (I did this last year when someone cheated me for 28 Bitcoins, where i even knew the bank information and name/address of the guy)

And for the bitmarket.eu thing: When I looked for lawyers in Poland during the time at the beginning when I first was VERY angry about my frozen coins, i also was extremly disapointed.

They usually have "reasonable" fees for polish citizens, but quite high fees for foreigners. It is tricky to find english speaking lawyers, I could at least manage to find few german-speaking lawyers as they speak german better than english in many cases. But they ALL take cash in advance and most of them do not even answer to your inquiries anymore, as soon as you start explaining something about bitcoin and blockchain transactions or whatever. They will refuse to take YOUR case anyway when tiny sums like 50 bitcoins are concerned, they will just laugh and tell you to go back and play with your facebook friends.


But do not trust me or "my lawyer", just make your own experience, waste some more money on lawyers if you can afford and keep beleiving I am now best friends with Maciej and I am investing into this new bitmarket project thing because i want do HIM (Maciej) a favor ;-))

Please note though that since Bitmarket is not a bank, we don't have any insurances against theft or other unpredicted losses of Bitcoin. While legally I don't think I own you any Bitcoins (as per mralbi said), I feel morally obliged to return them to all users that had them stolen, that's why you will receive them back after we gather necessary funds. They will get the same treatement as the "on hold" ones from the previous loss, possibly with one exception - they will be probably reimbursed first.


As someone already said before, the address and all necessary information was already posted before. The address that was used for the theft is:

http://blockchain.info/pl/address/1Lbcfpaw3uHs3iarBqZ12FYeD5vFwNvY49

Also, I don't really feel posting my postal address to some random guy on the internet, even if I owe virtual currency for him. Bitmarket investors will know my personal information and that's sufficient.

I was going to post something about the above lawyer fees comments.... I better not.

I/we understand you're upset. Join the boat my friend. We're all here ho....... you know what? Perhaps I shouldn't post this either.

Good luck, but please read back around 20 to 30 pages, in date order.. If you couldn't find that address from the 620 stolen coins I can pretty much assume that you hardly read anything at all. At most you skimmed through it, like your lawyer will do when he charges you EUR200-300 p/hour to "read" 2 pages of your problem, and that are other thousands(?) of people with the same one.
 

You see, I am not naive - I simply do not trust you and your lawyer.




BS, there are different ways and for sure even if I would take a lawyer in Poland, it will not be that costly.

To specify my first question: Can bitmarket-admin confirm, that I held 47,6258 bitcoins at bitmarket.eu right before they got stolen? -and I would like to get this question answered by m4v3r per email.

To my third question: I checked the whois-protocol at eurid.eu, but they seem not to disclose the address of the registrant (there is only an email-address). One address is disclosed, but that seems to be the address of the hosting service.

So, I am still waiting

well, the problem I discussed with my lawyer is: he does actually not owe you BITCOINS anymore, since they are GONE. In this case he is responsible to reimburse you the inflicted damage resulting from the loss in FIAT currency. Speculation profits or whatever you could construct are not counted....Since the loss was announced at 22.12 or so, he is responsible to reimburse you something like 47,62 times 10 euros = 476,20 Euros.

In a follow up step, provided you can actually provide enough evidence and bla you will pay in advance 3000 euros for a lawyer to get a certificate proving that he owes you that amount. This does not mean that he actually CAN pay you. In case he cannot (which is VERY likely if you have around 300.000 euros debts) He will go to bankruptcy. And after that "bankrupcy" will be announced and all former bitcoin holders would get around 6%. So, in your case: maybe 30 Euros, while you spent 3000 for the lawyer. (And up to here 2 years passed)


You are completely naive to trust into our legal system and stupid buerocrats or lawyers. In my case it would actually make more sense, as i have 618 frozen coins, but you can sue around as much as you want, it simply does not make sense when there is nothing to take....



The address should be easy to find, just check the domain owner

@manfred: thank you very much, maybe it will help, although chances are very small.

if it helps Maciej (bitmarket-admin) posted some info page 40  #798 regarding question 2

I am honestly not willing to discuss any plans/ideas regarding the relaunch of bitmarket.eu, as I will not be involved in this.
At the moment I have only three questions, which I want to be answered within a reasonable time-frame (i.e. 2-3 days).:

-Can bitmarket-admin confirm, that he owes me 47,6258 bitcoins? (My username at bitmarket.eu is fluppisippi.)

-To which bitcoinaddress(es) were the latest 620 stolen bitcoins sent? (Maybe bitmarket-admin already told us, but I could not find it)

-What is the postal address of the person that is legally responsible for bitmarket.eu in Poland? In case bitmarket.eu beeing a legal entity, what is its address?

I will also write an email with the same questions to bitmarket-admin, so you do not need to make your address public (although for legal reasons it should be).

(blue=edited)

eiskalt, i partially agree.

We are actually reconsidering if we should pay back stolen coins first, but that is really a tricky question, as of course the money misses for the rest. There was no decision taken on that topic (yet)

I also agree that this is NOT a good starting point. I.e. i agree that it is unfavorable to start with a shitload of lost coins. But the spirit seems still to be quite good and the main motivation that binds us together is not only coming from the old admin, but in particular from the people with frozen coins. And to the people i have talked so far there are great ideas and we just need to coordinate properly to make these happen.

Bitmarket used to be a good site in the past, run only by one person. When we now have the chance to start again with a team of skilled people i do not share your pessimism. I also fully agree that a bank is completely useless. But a peer2peer market where trust can be guarantueed is not.

I am also not saying that it is without risk to invest new money on top of the coins already lost, but the money is not lost, it just helps to pay back part of frozen coins to start with. But it also gives a chance to develop a useful site "owned" by a couple of skilled and motivated stakeholders that of course need to have more in mind than just short-term profit. But in case the new site might become a central part of the future booming bitcoin economy, we might have a chance to get our frozen coins actually back

@eiskalt
those are all very good points and need consideration. The theft incident certainly is a major bummer. since the questionairy was taken before the break in it did not address it (otherwisw it would not have happend. So the question is what to to with those 624 BTCs?
The short answer is NO, nobody cares judging by the amount of trade (0 coins traded this week 16 bitcoins last week). After all the main reason to use bitcoins is to get away from the gangster bankers. It's an oxymoron combination bank and bitcoin. Why not take ur bundle of money and take it straight to the bank and bypass bitcoin-central, its even "saver" as the exchange is not needed.

I already posted in the newbies section (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1574937) but since I am now allowed to post here, I have some additional points to make..

-relaunching the site can and will not be successful unless you recover at least the losses of the latest theft, because those coins belonged to people that wanted to give bitmarket.eu a second chance - others stayed away from the site and did so rightfully.

-your ideas about new services are illusionary and will not bring users back because everybody knows who is involved with the site. So in fact you try to create a complete new exchange, what you could do any time with any personal you would like to choose. mralbi mentioned a "debt-situation" and that bitmarket-admin could therefore be forced to cooperate in developing the new site. I consider such a debtsituation and force the worst situation to start a new buisness/site. Also look what bitcoin-central did; they registered as a PSP in cooperation with a bank, that is also unprecedented in the bitcoinworld - nowhere are your bitcoins more secure than there, but does anyone care? The point is: Just because there is an idea does not mean that people will follow as you would like them to.

-what mralbi also does (although it is maybe not his intention) is trying to bring people into doubling down on there their lost bitcoins, which can and will only lead to further losses, because of what I said before.

-your questionaire is null and void, because of the second incident, which changed many peoples mind.

So that is it for now, I see only one way to go forward and that is official bancruptcy in courts. bitmarket-admin will have his chance to come clean there (I do not expect him to get a prison term) and the users will get what is left of bitmarket.eu. Also remember, if bitmarket-admin has to sell everything he owns, do not forget the website and its code, so there will be maybe more to get in courts, than what is offered to you right now.

that was the main reason why it was tricky to find investors at all ;-). We at least have now been able to find some people to invest some of their private savings into this new project and many people spend already a lot of their free time.

I guess the true intention for most investors in this project is to create a community based exchange, p2p service of highest quality away from the backyard operators. Something like the "Linux" for Bitcoins. Its unlikely 91 total strangers with jobs and families team up to run a ponzi scheme. Anyone wanting to participate in a proven ponzi scheme can go straight the source. mmm2012.com
As a side note only invest money u can afford to lose 

these are the kind of questions we would like to discuss in our meeting on 15th march. ;-)


old debts = frozen coins. Liability transfer i just mean that new owners are legally liable for bitmarket.eu debts (frozen coins)


Would you happen to have time on 15th to join our meeting? ;-) We could use any helping hand.

Who decide where the profit is going? The , or ?
I don't understand what's the difference between "old debts" and "frozen coins", could you please elaborate?
Also what do you mean by not creating a "liability transfer"?

PS: I'm Michael, the CS student who sent you a mail expressing interest in actively taking part in developing the site.