Topic: BitMarket.Eu has closed down - page 44. (Read 204067 times)

This won't happen in Eastern-European countries for the very simple reason, that in most accounts there you can't deposit a check, and in those you can, the bank will put the money in your account only after several weeks after you give them the check, during which they will actually receive the money from the bank which issued the check, and only after that happens, they'll credit your account. So you can't deposit a fraudulent check and then transfer the money to someone.

Anyway its hard to believe that anywhere a wire can be reversed because it came from an account where a fraudulent check was deposited. Where did you get such advice from? Are you sure the person who told you this, really fully knows what he is talking about?

I'd imagine in such situation, the bank where the fraudulent check was deposited would have to try to trace the person who deposited it, and if they can't find him, the bank would have to eat the loss. No way I can imagine that someone else can get money from his account grabbed just because he happened to receive a transfer from that account. If that would happen here, he could sue the bank, and would win in any court. At least any European court.

Also: why would the fraudster wire the money from the check to someone, if it would be much simpler for him just to withdraw it from the account in cash and walk away with the cash? If he can make a wire, he can as well just withdraw it. So the story doesn't make sense to me.

Between my accounts (and these are "common" Sparkassen/Landesbanken banks), if ordered before 19:50, they arrive in the other bank next day before 09:10, contrary to what other people say that they take 3 days. So I am interested in figuring out where exactly those mysterious transfers which hide in a black hole for 3 days come from, because I haven't witnessed one so far. Of course if someone orders a transfer on Monday at 21:00 and checks the other bank on Wednesday at 06:30, the transfer won't be there, and he might say "oh look, it takes three days - Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday", but sorry, that's just not counting the days properly, and not knowing that for the bank, after cut-off time is like already next day, so that doesn't count.

e.g. because of escrow service I'd say
and customers make their problems to the problems if traders all time... so avoiding them is a good way out

..also paypal is a competitor to bitcoin in many minds here

If you read the thread carefully, you'll notice that Mahkul mentioned that the scams were flooding their support system. Since they're free, they can't just throw money at the problem to make it go away...
It isn't ideal, but until they get the rating system implemented, this is probably the best solution.

First, let me say that PayPal has an OTP mechanism, at least in Germany, where you can sign in via on SMS OTP. And I am pretty sure that it's not just germany where you can do this. They also sold token generators, not sure if they still sell them. But I don't understand why the Paypal scams have to be the problem of the trading site? Why don't you tell your users that there is a high risk if they trade bitcoins against Paypal money? Everyone is free to choose what they accept as payment, including the pros and cons. A rating system will also likely reduce the amount of scam, while it sure can't prevent it entirely.
On the other hand, I don't like Paypal. Because of their handling with wikileaks, because they freeze money for no reasons (there are serveral cases her in germany), because of the cuban export control, because they are a monopolist, because of various other reasons. I try to avoid Paypal where possible and never used it with bitmarket. So I don't really care

I'm an neutral on the first changes. But introducing a fee and excluding "the most loyal users" is plain wrong. You give gifts to the high volume traders who already make some money with the trading and scare away the low volume/one time traders, which are the clients of the high volume traders. How is this fair?
There are two primary reasons I use bitmarket to trade a low amount once in a while:

• I can use SEPA\local wire transfers
• It's free of charge

Please exclude at least SEPA/local wire transfer from the fees or keep the fees here at a minimum.

I also don't think that this is a good idea, because the accounts could be taken back by their owners giving them a bad reputation. It would be better to introduce a rating system.

Flow

Once the offers are matched, both the seller and the buyer receive emails from admin at bitmarket dot eu asking them to contact each other, so you can be sure he got the message unless our email address is in his spam filter.

We can't allow anyone to cancel their offers manually after the transaction took place, because this way the buyer would have no warranty that they will get their coins in case the seller was going to cheat. You need to email us if you need the transaction cancelled and then we resolve it. I know it's not ideal, but that's the way it is for now.

We are working out the legal issues and once we have everything sorted we will allow transferring money into the exchange, so that the transactions within the exchange are instant. No point in allowing that now and then shutting the exchange down after some tax officer gets onto us. We want to do this right. Also, once we have the legal end of it sorted we are going (more than likely) to act as a limited company with proper terms and conditions so that everyone knows where their money is going.

I was thinking a messaging system within the exchange, but then again, the guy may say he never logged in to read the message so this doesn't really solve the issue.

-DiamondPlus

On a sidenote, everyone keeps saying how safe a wire/bank/SEPA transfer is... Paid or not paid, point finale. BUT, it can just as well be reversed! Although it is a tad more elaborate than charging back with Paypal. I first stumbled upon this when someone from Cote d'Ivoire was trying to scam me when I was selling my car, this person wanted to pay by wire transfer so I thought there was no risk of the money being taken back... Luckily, I discovered in time that it can be taken back! The reason for it is very simple, everything depends on the origin of the money that is used to execute the wire transfer.

You don't know how that money was deposited onto the account in question. If it was deposited with a (fraudulent) cheque/check on a previously empty account opened with fraudulent ID, then the bank will request your bank to charge back the transfer, as it was funded with an invalid cheque (thus non-existant funds). Though not very likely, I imagine it could also happen closer to our own beds, when I hear how relaxed banks are in some Eastern-European countries.

I only used Bitmarket.eu for only Paypal 

For some situations/amounts/banks, that could be cheaper than the $30-$40 wire transfer fees someone might have to pay.

Paypal costs 1.9% - 2.9% + $0.30 + cross border payment fee + conversion fee.

Some people say "no, paypal personal transfers are free". Well, paypal has cut myself and many others off from receiving "personal transfers" without fees.

Neteller accounts aren't available in the united states though.

Person-to-person transfer costs 1.9% min 1 USD - way too much to be much useful.
http://www.neteller.com/fees/

'Fast' is obviously something very subjective here, fast to me is not "somewhere between 1 to 3 days". If you trade on a real financial exchange, 1 to 3 days delay is a lifetime. Furthermore I don't fancy the idea of refreshing my online banking interface a gazillion times per day to see if that transfer finally came through... With online eWallet services, at least you receive an e-mail notifying you of the incoming transfer.

With Moneybookers it never takes me more than a few hours (waiting for the buyer to respond) to complete a transaction. I don't have the patience to wait around for days to see if the buyer is actually going to buy or not. But, to each his own of course.

But what will happen with sharp price movements within one (or a few) days? I can already feel a bunch of cancellations coming up / buyers backing out, since at that point prices are moving so much faster than the transactions can be settled.

The buyer already has 100% safety on his side. Seller's BTC get frozen and cannot be taken out. However, the buyer can write the admins with a proof of sending the wire, i.e. Admins can release the BTC. Thus, buyer have absolutely no risk.
However, I'm also looking forward to the rating system
I hope you can also rate old transactions!!!

I prefer simple SEPA / wire transfer.

Fast enough and either the buyer pays and gets the BTC, or the buyer does not pay and doesn't get the BTC. Dead simple, and as soon as there is a rating system, the buyer has also some more safety on his side!

@ ancow: Welcome
@ BitMarket admins: How would you feel about adding Neteller as a payment option?
@ BitMarket users: And how would the users feel about that, anyone here interested in using Neteller?

It works like Moneybookers, they're also popular with the poker crowd and also offer a prepaid MasterCard 'Net+' (higher ATM fee & FX rate, but no annual usage fee) to access the funds in the account. It does appear to be a bit more 'global' than Moneybookers. I couldn't find much about chargeback issues, looks promising. Lots of funding options for the account too, a lot more than any other system I've seen before.

Thank you!
This document is going to come in handy...

Yeah, so typical of banks. When customers got spoofed recently in Belgium, banks pledged to refund he clients, saying it was a "commercial move", while it is in fact their legal obligation to refund those customers...

Regarding said limits, I have found a European Payments Council document more or less 'clearly' stating these limits:




So, in theory even local transfers initiated with a paper SEPA transfer form can take 2 days locally and internationally starting next year, but in theory electronic transfers should go through in 1 day, both locally and internationally, starting next year. Until the end of the year, local transfers should go through in 2 days (paper) or 1 day (electronic) max, international should go through in 3 days (paper) or 2 days (electronic) max. But rest assured, plenty of banks are in frequent violation. The problem is, no one is reporting these delays.

Unfortunately, I already looked over what my bank sent me and even at their websites. This is the most detailed description I can find: https://www.ksk-es.de/privatkunden/banking/sepa/details/index.php?n=%2Fprivatkunden%2Fbanking%2Fsepa%2Fdetails%2F&IFLBSERVERID=IF@@021@@IF
Even this only mentions that there is some sort of upper limit, it does not mention the limit itself. (It's actually a nice feat of marketing - after reading over it, you feel pretty well informed, but you are missing basic information such as timing info.)

Check your bank communication, most banks communicated these details when they communicated information related to SEPA to their clients initially. Some banks report these regulations or an introduction on their website (example). I'm sure you can also find it on a European website somewhere. As of next year, international SEPA transfer should go through in 1 day max, same as local.

That's really nice to know - do you have somewhere I can look this up?

These are indeed SEPA regulations, the maximum time permitted for a transfer to go through. Local SEPA transfer should go through in 1 day maximum, international SEPA transfers maximum 3 days, but naturally they can go through sooner, depending indeed on the banks involved in the transfer.