Topic: BitMarket.Eu has closed down - page 46. (Read 204185 times)

this is your reason of acocunt suspension on mb

they see bitcoin as a kinda fraude thing , there is no proof that it is sended and it get created on a not fair way (depeds how you explained it to them)
basicly bitcoin can be seein as money laundering because you can create your own bitcoin and sell it for money
there is no proof that you sold a real thing , there is no proof that you sold anyhting , so you just get money from some1 with out a reason

but before going to mutch offtopic
here is a little secret , it is way easyer to chargeback with moneybookers then with paypal ( reason why egypt get accepted by mb and not by pp ?? )

the fee's are higher to on mb then on pp
but before i go to mutch offtopic
i still love the service that bitmarket is offering
but it would be sadly for me if they should remove paypal , its the users there right to denie payments with pp but i still feel that they need to keep pp alive as there are almost no other markets that accept pp , and i can not sell btc on a other way then with pp (got my reasons and a bit of lazyness has to do with it to)

Greets From PowerChaos

Right you are. However, since this coincides with the removal of PP as an option, this bug will likely have something to do with it. I'm a tad curious how this could have happened... (Database corruption by the payment method removal script? New offers not being assigned one because of a bug introduced by the change?)

No, because there are other offers which have the Paypal logo, so the Paypal option didn't get removed from the offers which had them before the change.

See https://bitmarket.eu/market/USD

I'm pretty sure those were Paypal-only offers, and they will probably go away/be replaced eventually (unless the admins delete them manually, which would speed things up ).

Can someone tell me what does it mean if there are offers on BitMarket.eu which do not have any Payment types? How will such users pay?
For example now in USD Market on Bid (buy) offers:

   17.08.2011, 4:19:17   10 BTC   USD   13 USD   130.00 USD
   17.08.2011, 4:19:35   3 BTC     USD   13 USD   39.00 USD
   17.08.2011, 4:19:49   2.92 BTC   USD   13 USD   37.96 USD

They don't have any logos of  Local wire transfer, neither, Foreign wire transfer, SEPA wire transfer nor Dwolla, not even Moneybookers, nothing!

If I want to sell some BTC for 13 USD/BTC to these users, how will they pay me?

Will such orders match with anything?

There are now sell orders much below 13 USD, and these orders don't match with them.

Maybe its an error to allow such orders and they'll never be executed?

Yes, I have some NOK that I'm looking to convert into BTC, and the seller on the otc that's offering BTC for NOK has a gpg key that won't work to encrypt messages.

I dont.

I got charged back on moneybookers the following day that I sold BTC on Bitmarket.eu.
I wrote to MB telling the full and honest story  (yes I told them about bitcoin).
After that they have suspended my withdraw and requested further identification (passport), tho my address was already confirmed.
After I provided them with ID, they decided to give me an option to withdraw my left money on MB and after that, they closed my account.


Dear Mr. ---,

 Following a detailed security check, we have decided to terminate your account with Moneybookers. Any balance is immediately available for you to withdraw at your convenience.

 Please visit our Terms and Conditions - Section 10.2 for further information regarding the reversed payments.

 This action is taken in accordance with section 17 of our Terms and Conditions.

 Kind regards,

 Moneybookers Security



After asking twice for additional explanation about section 17 (which part of it im breaking), they responded this...( response was the same both thimes )

Dear Mr. ---,

 Thank you for your email.
 We are sorry to inform you that we cannot offer you our services. Please note that the decision for closing your Moneybookers account is final and indisputable. Any attempt to open new accounts will not be tolerated.

 Best regards,

second one:


Dear Mr. ---,

 Thank you for contacting us.

 We regret to inform you that since your account was suspended based on our Terms and Conditions section 17 we are unable to further assist you.

 Kind regards,

 Moneybookers Security


And btw, there is a charge back button in help... so you can automatically cancel transactions, no need to call MB or anything.

Pawel, the bitmarket.eu admin is aware of my case tho its obvious I will not get any money (btc or eur) back.

Edit: adding this part of the TOS:

17. Termination and suspension
17.1. We may terminate your Moneybookers Account or any payment service associated with it by giving you two months prior notice. You may terminate your Account with us at any time. Different termination rights may apply under a Merchant Agreement if you hold a Merchant Account.
17.2. Together with a termination notice or at any time thereafter we may give you reasonable instructions on how to withdraw remaining funds.
17.3. If your Account is subject to a reserve, termination of your Account will not affect our right to hold the reserve and to make deductions therefrom for the time agreed.
17.4. We may at any time suspend or terminate your Moneybookers Account without notice in case:
17.4.1. you breach any condition of these Terms of Use or any other condition applicable to specific services covered by separate terms and conditions;
17.4.2. you violate or we have reason to believe that you are in violation of any law or regulation that is applicable to your use of Moneybookers services; or
17.4.3. If we have reason to believe that you are in any way involved in any fraudulent activity, money laundering, terrorism financing or other criminal activity.
17.5. We may suspend your Account at any time if:
17.5.1. we reasonably believe that your Account has been compromised or for other security reasons; or
17.5.2. we reasonably suspect your Account to have been used or is being used without your authorisation or fraudulently; and we shall notify you either prior to the suspension or, if prior notification is not possible under the circumstances, promptly after the suspension unless we are prohibited by law to notify you.

I like the decision, I never accepted paypal as a payment method, but still twice someone wanted to pay my btc via paypal. Glad to see it gone

I just think moneybookers has a problem in acceptance (number of users).
One reason for that I estimate in the fact, that there is paypal where a user can charge and withdraw his account without any fee.
And MB just can charge without a fee.
The matter of acceptance is a matter of ease - a matter of ease is if I have (as a customer) to think about fees. If there is none, I do not have to think about that one. That is also the main reason for charging fees on the receiver (usually businesses) and not the payer (usually the customer). It is some kind of marketing I assume.

@Mahkul

Thank you very much for these announcements - I'd love to see some trustworthy instance in your market where classic money and btc are held until both sides have transferred their amount. I hope you are successful in offering an at least as good service as mtgox regarding charging the account. They really lack SEPA for many Europeans (hope they can hold 20th aug11).
The Paypal-Option not many will miss I suppose. But probably the ones that do miss such service can boost moneybookers to a position where withdrawing to a bank account will not cost anymore - the main reason I do not use that one.

Besides, right now I have a problem with a missing confirmation of an bank transfer I did. How can I proof that I did send the money to the Person that keeps silent right now?

Just to point this out, but as I see it, it also is a staffing problem for BM. They just don't have the manpower to deal with all those PayPal frauds. Whether they would be willing to accept your escrow service as a payment method is another matter entirely...

i got other ways to deal with paypal
as you probaly know to , i sell virtual goods ( vps servers and webhosting )  and there is no difference with bitcoin
bitcoin is a virtual currency , so same rules apply to them

in first place it depends how mutch you use paypal ( it build up the trust with paypal itself) and how many problems you dealed with before (and definaly what you are selling as business account)

i do not know how the usa paypal take care of things , but the dutch paypal is kinda harder to get charged back from

i got on regulair time claims from users that says the same as you do , that claims that there paypal is hacked or that they dit not authorise the sending
and they do accept my logs i provide to them ( if i provide them , mostly i do not even provide them anything as that is not needed for me )

on 2 years time only 2 chargebacks where sucesfull
and 1 chargeback from it was because the user used a stolen visa card ( he dit not even use a paypal account ) , tooks about 14 days to solve that problem and i lost that claim because they got a lot of proof that it was realy a stolen creditcard

then a other claim was because of my mistake , i provided them the wrong information about the claim so the user could get that claim valid (to long ago to provide more detais about it )

for the rest i got on regulair times claims about the vps servers , about donations ( from games ) and about other stuff and i never lost them
so i see no reason why i woulnd be able to defend me from bitcoin fraude ?

then to answer the other question
bitcoin as final trading currency is a realy bad idea
reason is that it is realy hard to track where it is sended to , that you can easy lose the files ( as it are files) and that it is a 1 way sending only (so you get the coins or not .. )

then we dit not talk yet about the market and the rates it got all the time and how you can get them

as soon bitcoin got a api system and a verification system so you know that it get sended to the persone , a safe system to get things recovered in case you lose them and a safe tracking system to validate the sending then it can be something
but then it still need a kinda fixed rate like the other currency's , or do you see that 1€ will become 10$ in 1 day ?? and next day just 2$ like bitcoin does ?

anyway , it is not for me to deside what bitcoin wil be or what it should become
i dit not know about that scammers used verified paypal accounts , as it sound strange to me to link a visa card to a account if you use it to scam .. (it get locked by paypal if they figure out that it get used for scamming )

but my thing stays the same
i want to help the community with offering my services as a escrow ( third party ) service , so the buyer get his bitcoins and the seller get his money for sure
so if the buyer want to scam that he need to deal with me and not to the seller that does not have the knowledge about paypal that i have and never dealed with the problems i dealed with

if they are realy that hard to fight then paypal will be able to stop them soon enouf , as paypal get a lot of info from me with every case i need to deal with so they can prevent it from happening
and as side note , every payment get past my billing system , and a billing system is a official document that does count as proof (specialy when it send a conformation email)
so if the user refuse to react on that in a given time then 95% of the claims are already invalid for paypal (in my case) as the owner can not say that it was a unwanted/stolen card after XX time (or does users never read emails ??)

anyway
dealing with paypal is part of my problem
if i can not handle the problem anymore then i will close my escrow service , but at this moment i make sure that the sellers realy got his money even if i lose money because of it

it is my way to fight against abusing , i want to show the scammers that it is not easy to get money back if they try to do it from some1 who know how to fight back and got differend ways for proof against chargebacks that get accepted

as special i will even make a list of the users with there email + paypal + bitcoin adress + username + maybe his password if i am allowed to release it ( need to do some research about that )  of the users who are trying to make a claim ( sucesfull or not .. a claim is a claim) so others are warned to

as my escrow works only betwean buyer/seller directly does the seller know to that the buyer is a scammer or not , as the seller already talked to the buyer and is just using me to finish the trade

anyway
enouf about me
if i need to be honnest , i would leave paypal avaible , it is the user there responsibility to trade the stuff , they press confirm and they take the risk to use paypal
it is like sending money to a other bank or by getting a check ... if i put the check on a other name then it is invalid to and i still got my items ?? or not ??

you can suggest not to use it , but you can not take the responsibility on you if they use it , its the user there responsibility if they want to use it as long they know the risks ofcourse

hopely i explained myself good enouf as it is kinda hard to explain this kind of things to show what i mean

Greets From PowerChaos

I'm glad we still have MoneyBookers

i am not so happy that paypal get removed from the trade list

the reason why is because i use paypal as trading exange

most of my payments are taken care of by paypal , so i was specialy looking for a place to trade bitcoins to paypal ( it goes fast in my case)

i know about the scammings that are happening and thats why i started up a escrow service so i can make sure that the user get paid even if it got charged back (as they charge back from me , so the end user always get his money )

for me it would be sadly if paypal get removed , as it is already hard to find a good place to trade with paypal

on the other side , there will always be scammers , specialy because bitcoin is a 1 way currency
how you want to look at it , there are always ways to scam some1 , and sadly enouf they are abusing the systems to make a quick amount of money
but that does not mean that you need to eliminate the use of it

you need to see it like a shop
you got a shop in mainstreet , it get robbed 3X per week , does that means that that shop need to close because it is in a high risk street ??
if they are heavy secured , does that eliminate the risk to get robbed ?? (maybe a bit )
they just change the payment way , instead only acceping cash they accept creditcards so they can not be robbed from there cash ... (external source to complete the payment)

point i mean
if some1 can abuse something then mostly they will abuse it

i want to fight to against the abusing of paypal , that  is why i offer that escrow service
i got a bit more skills with the chargebacks so i know how i can protect myself from it
unlike ohter *new* users who barely use paypal , they do not know the tricks to protect from chargeback and they mostly fail to keep the chargeback

like i told before to , try to accept only verified paypal accounts
if they do fraude then there account wont be verified (as it need a valid visa card .. not a stolen creditcard in the first place)
applying that rule will eliminate already 65% of the current clients you have , but it does not destroy the nice payment system you are offering
and it let users feel safer because it is a verified account and not just a account that exist from 2 days ago

hopely you can understand what i try to explain

Greets From PowerChaos

I am definitely in favor of removing PayPal as an allowed payment method on BitMarket.eu. Dwolla is the way to go. Lose PayPal and all the scams associated with it.

Yes, I think what will happen is the BitMarket website will get split in two - I am not sure how exactly, but we realize that there still are people who prefer this way of trading. We will, however, add the rating system and limits for new users and Paypal is out of the question. I know this was announced a long time ago, but M4v3R is away until the end of August and since primarily I am not a coder but a network security expert I can't proceed with this on my own. Thanks for everyone's patience.

Will you still allow peer-to-peer exchanges? The big exchanges (Mt Gox and Tradehill) are having lots of trouble setting up SEPA transfers. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So I have been buying bitcoins at Bitmarket. It is really simple and it is always available.

Great decision, Paypal will not be missed!

One of the reasons Bitcoin even exists in the first place is because Paypal is so bad.