Topic: BitSyncom, will all the chip orders ship together? - page 4. (Read 11542 times)

Batch#3 customers could receive some extra chips to recompense those delays

In my mind it's just the fact they opened for batch #3 at a significantly inflated price, knowing full well they were about to sell chips en mass, in bulk for a more reasonably comparative price point.

Most bulk #3 customers would have undoubtedly held back.

But they had a finite window of a few hours to make a purchase by a non-refundable payment means. I know as I stared at that screen almost purchasing myself.

In essence they were somewhat duped.

Then subsequently ignored most of the time, perhaps with their equipment mined on, we're not fully sure what happened there, but certainly there have been units (batch#2) good to go, that weren't sent when ready.

Now it looks like they won't receive this units until after bulk chips are sent out, potentially destroying their ROI, let alone future profit, which the batch #3 units were priced in accordance with, it just not cricket...

If he can refund Batch3, why can't he refund chip orders? Its the same thing. He is just being greedy, and it hurts him to see the money going out.

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

I woud still be OK with Avalon if it starts refunding any pre-orders, whenever a refund is requested! He has long recouped the NRE charges. His cost per chip is very minute as compared to the price he is selling at. His product is in high demand. It does not make any sense to not refund. Unless he is planning a bigger scam.

Bitfury offers 120GH/s units for $2100? Avalon offered +68GH/s unit for $1200 when the difficulty was 6 times lower, so it was cheaper.

There's no evidence of Bitfury mining with customers units? Give me a break, they haven't got any ASIC unit yet, you could say exactly the same thing about Avalon a few months ago - until they had the first units there was no evidence of them mining with customers units... And still, I don't see that overwhelming evidence anywhere.

Only difference between Avalon in late 2012 (when they took the first preorders) and Bitfury now is that Bitfury has some sample chips, while Avalon had nothing... But, this is an argument that works in two ways, for ex.: why is Bitfury asking for upfront money if they already had enough to develop the chips, which is by far the most expensive part of the development?

I have the impression you were not around when Avalon batch #1 were on sale, the potential profit in taking that gamble was HUGE (you could potentially lose $1 against winning $30), the risk on Bitfury is similar (ok, maybe slightly lower, but not much) but the fact is the potential profits are much smaller. And, FYI, Avalon was a big WIN for everyone that had the balls to take that gamble. Kudos to them for that.

Again: I don't know if you were around, but Avalon increased the price of their Batch #3 because their batch #1 costed $1,200 and were sold on ebay for +$30,000.... I don't know if you run a business, but there is no way a company sells a product for a price that allows resellers to make a x30 instant profit on their work. NO WAY. Following that "ebay situation", Batch #3 was priced in terms of expected ROI... Avalon screwed up the timings and thus with ROI projections, and now they acknowledge this mistake and offer a full refund to anyone asking for it. Seriously, what else do you want? Batch #3 price was fair if they were delivered when difficulty was 10 to 15 million, that was the plan, now the difficulty is above that point because they screwed up and they offer you a full refund... OK, take that refund and move on, you accepted "no refund policy" and they backtracked that policy, fair deal in my book.

I'm an Avalon customer with batch #3 on the way and I would have loved for them to deliver in early May, or to offer a partial refund to customers while still delivering the units... But that's wishful thinking, they are in now way obliged to do that, take your refund and invest on Bitfury if they are so much superior to Avalon in your opinion.

EDIT: and BTW, I *may* consider doing what I said in my last sentence, not because I believe Bitfury is more "honest" than Avalon, just because a batch #3 refund will allow me to buy more GH/s for my BTC. As simple as that, no need to whine.

Bitfury offers ~2100 $ = ~21BTC / 120 GH/s unit - no delay yet, no evidence of mining with customers units
Avalon offers  B#3 ~10000 $ = ~100BTC / 85 GH/s unit - delayed already, heavily overpriced due to calculated 1 month break even according to bitsyncom promises, possible delivery of chips prior to batch #3 customers, building new facility instead of building customers units.

Batch #1 was indeed a gamble since there was no proven ASIC technology to work with bitcoin mining, and only 2 of 4 companies did menage to deliver on time(Avalon, ASICminer). Now times are quite different.

OH I didn't knew that bitcoin economy is designed to get rich people more rich? I assume that if you can afford sending 20K to some dudes in china you have quite a backup. My flawed thinking about bitcoin ecconomy sorry for that. batch #1 customers are hashing the shit out of it, while batch #3 customers were fooled to borrow money to Avalon team with no intrest rates

How much easier should it be to deliver something if you charge 10x times more than you need to deliver working unit and actually profit?
I assume that you have 10x more money to spend to deliver single working unit, that would be true if our money would have been spend on producing our units rather than new unnecessary facility. If something fails you got ten times more money than you need so you can forward that money to other place to speed up things, or again I am missing sth?

I imagine avalon components might be hard to get, same as dope. But if I would send you downtown and give you 10x more money than you need to buy a dope, even if you wouldn't knew anybody you would be able to buy it overpriced in quite reasonable time. I don't expect you to build meth lab for your business, even that I gave you 10x $ more than needed. DUCY?

It's called growing pains. Batch one had a lot of time to get going with no deadline and it was smaller. The next batches were probably too large and their infrastructure could not produce that many in that short of time. They over estimated their capabilities. Offering refunds is the right thing to do, expecting more then refunds and your just being a baby. You took a chance, now in hindsight you don't like it and are crying. You're not entitled to interest on your pre-sale. Took a chance and lost. Shit happens.

You make absolute sense with your questioning.

How can a business get WORSE at what they do, with more practice?

Sorry, is Bitfury offering ready-made units or are they gathering pre-orders and asking for upfront payment for units delivered in the future? How is Bitfury's business model so superior's to Avalon? They already collected money and AFAIK they didn't deliver a single unit so far. Bitfury has a past history of successful FPGA development, as Avalon's ngzhang has. Pretty similar situation in my book, but please illustrate me how it's so different.

And BTW, 20k may seem a very big investment for you, but I remind you that only one BFL mini-rig was more expensive than that... And that many users in these forums are gambling more $ on KnC, for a much smaller $/potential profit ratio.

Yeah, you obviously have no idea about what 'non-reoccurring engineering costs' are and their relevance to ASIC development, over FPGAs where they are non-existent, or GPUs where mega firms like Nvidia and AMD can afford to spend millions of dollars and not forward the costs upfront to customers as really something as trivial as Bitcoin eoypth a tiny $1.4 billion market cap pales in comparison to graphics card supply for other uses.

There will always be pre-orders until a well financed firm can swallow NRE before requesting customer payment. And if they can, and it become more profitable to mine, even for a finite period, why sell? That is actually a real danger.

Or maybe they would just mine themselves to then sell the units at a price that doesn't allow ROI. ASIC have nothing to do with GPUs or FPGAs, it's a tricky game, nobody is going to sell you money-printing machines at a price that allow you to easily achieve ROI. Why should any company do that? If they invest their own money to develop the hardware they will maximize their profit, and in this case maximizing profit means a) you mine yourself or b) you sell the units for more BTC they will likely generate in all their life span. The only way you need to offer a good ROI to your customers in the ASIC game is if you need their money for the development beforehand.

BTW, I don't know if you were an Avalon batch #1 customer, I seriously doubt it, because if you were you would know that the ROI those batch #1 Avalon returned is insane. The guy that took the gamble to buy 10 or more of them, is now FILTHY rich.

That wouldn't have been possible without pre-orders, crowd-funding, or call it as you wish.

Same shit as with BFL, Avalon team probably noticed that there was no lawsuit against BFL so they realised they are totally free with what they are doing and how they treat they customers.

Srsly one big lawsuit and suddenly there would be no preorders and bullshit terms of sale from other companies, just in stock ready to ship products.

well, I think that if you order something for ~90k $, you can read the clause literally.) (here in Europe)

Yes... one day left... But i dont think that it will be delivered tomorrow. At least when i got Yifu on the phone 2 weeks ago he spoke like the chips wont arrive anytime soon at his company branch in china.

Unfortunately you may not have read the clause literally.
They say: 5.the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,
What they don't say is when the lead time actually starts, technically (and if I have learned one thing here recently its that you need to take every statement literally!).

Guess if they wanted to they could technically deliver them in a couple of years and not breach the no bull shit terms LOL!