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Topic: Block chain size/storage and slow downloads for new users - page 5. (Read 228612 times)

legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1000
Si vis pacem, para bellum
So now you are trying to force every bitcoin user to have a full node? Just like every webpage visitor has a full server in his house? Satoshi never visioned such a world. He stated that the full nodes will be centralized and that people will use Light clients. Why are you trying to impose YOUR point of view on everyone else? Why don't you let everyone to decide if they are ok with centralized nodes or not? Why do you think that there will not be some kind of trusted full nodes service where people can whitelist and blacklist centralized nodes? Stop trying to limit stuff and stop being MP dog who just follows orders!

If you aren't running a full node, you aren't using bitcoin! That's not me "forcing" anything; it's just a fact. The more apt analogy is gold backed paper currency -- those handling the physical gold are like the full node operators, and those who just pass around paper bills are like the thin client users. It's not inherently wrong to use the bills rather than the metal, but the system shouldn't be crafted around the paper. Your suggestion is that I shouldn't mind that all the gold be stored in a few "trusted" warehouses rather than dispersed throughout the world in many different locations. You seem to gloss over the fact that your level of trust with the nodes isn't the issue; it's that there being few of them makes it trivial for a government to seize the whole thing. Was the demise of the Liberty Dollar due to a lack of trust from his clients? No. It was because a rouge state stole his assets and arrested him.

For what it's worth, MP has not "ordered" me to do anything. I waste my time on the forums against his recommendation. I can't find it in the logs, but I recall asking him if I should post here and him responding in the negative. How about you stop "limiting stuff" to what some bad programmer said and stop following the orders of UnSavoryGarnish.

its not the same as your analogy because people who have lite wallets
are still posession of their own "gold"

the "gold" doesnt belong to the "warehouse" node just because you maybe using a litewallet

i have a lot of coins stored in a  multibit wallet i use when im travelling but theyre not any less secure than coins stored  in my full client node , AFAIK theyre both bulletproof provided the systems dont get compromised by malware or keyloggers or whatever

full member
Activity: 212
Merit: 100
Daniel P. Barron
So now you are trying to force every bitcoin user to have a full node? Just like every webpage visitor has a full server in his house? Satoshi never visioned such a world. He stated that the full nodes will be centralized and that people will use Light clients. Why are you trying to impose YOUR point of view on everyone else? Why don't you let everyone to decide if they are ok with centralized nodes or not? Why do you think that there will not be some kind of trusted full nodes service where people can whitelist and blacklist centralized nodes? Stop trying to limit stuff and stop being MP dog who just follows orders!

If you aren't running a full node, you aren't using bitcoin! That's not me "forcing" anything; it's just a fact. The more apt analogy is gold backed paper currency -- those handling the physical gold are like the full node operators, and those who just pass around paper bills are like the thin client users. It's not inherently wrong to use the bills rather than the metal, but the system shouldn't be crafted around the paper. Your suggestion is that I shouldn't mind that all the gold be stored in a few "trusted" warehouses rather than dispersed throughout the world in many different locations. You seem to gloss over the fact that your level of trust with the nodes isn't the issue; it's that there being few of them makes it trivial for a government to seize the whole thing. Was the demise of the Liberty Dollar due to a lack of trust from his clients? No. It was because a rouge state stole his assets and arrested him.

For what it's worth, MP has not "ordered" me to do anything. I waste my time on the forums against his recommendation. I can't find it in the logs, but I recall asking him if I should post here and him responding in the negative. How about you stop "limiting stuff" to what some bad programmer said and stop following the orders of UnSavoryGarnish.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
Visa will never to able to offer anything related with bitcoin with this 1MB block limit because they will not play the bid-for-space war.

The idea is that they won't have to bid all that much because the limit will keep all the little transactions off the block chain and on the 3rd party ledgers. In this way, debts can build up between companies like Visa and get settled on a daily/weekly/monthly basis via the block chain. Yes, that means poor people don't get to anonymously buy anarchy themed lapel pins, but it ensures that poor people can verify that the worlds supply of money has not been corrupted. The only way to perform a legitimate validation of the transaction ledger is to retain a full copy of it on local devices, a task that becomes cost prohibitive as blocks become larger.

Please highlight to me the offchain solution that is available since we are approaching the 1MB block limit very fast.

And if you can't be bothered to maintain your own full node, you don't need your transactions on the block chain. The revolution in bitcoin wasn't the ability to pass around signed transactions; the revolution was in a distributed consensus of those signed transactions. If you aren't checking the validity of the transactions, you aren't using bitcoin. If you're using someone else's node to check the validity, you are relying on them! So then, what is the point of having your petty little transaction bloating up my hard drive!? The people who "can't be bothered" are never going to bother, and I do not want my money compromised to give them some illusion of freedom! Let them have checking accounts and credit cards denominated in bitcoin, and let them also have the option to validate a bank's books with their own inexpensive full node.

So now you are trying to force every bitcoin user to have a full node? Just like every webpage visitor has a full server in his house? Satoshi never visioned such a world. He stated that the full nodes will be centralized and that people will use Light clients. Why are you trying to impose YOUR point of view on everyone else? Why don't you let everyone to decide if they are ok with centralized nodes or not? Why do you think that there will not be some kind of trusted full nodes service where people can whitelist and blacklist centralized nodes? Stop trying to limit stuff and stop being MP dog who just follows orders!
full member
Activity: 212
Merit: 100
Daniel P. Barron
Storage is getting cheaper,bandwidth is getting cheaper ever year, by the time bigger blocks come,I think we'll be able to swallow them, just like now...

There is plenty of.lite wallets for anyone who can't be bothered running a full client

That's not an assumption I want the world's economy to bank on.

And if you can't be bothered to maintain your own full node, you don't need your transactions on the block chain. The revolution in bitcoin wasn't the ability to pass around signed transactions; the revolution was in a distributed consensus of those signed transactions. If you aren't checking the validity of the transactions, you aren't using bitcoin. If you're using someone else's node to check the validity, you are relying on them! So then, what is the point of having your petty little transaction bloating up my hard drive!? The people who "can't be bothered" are never going to bother, and I do not want my money compromised to give them some illusion of freedom! Let them have checking accounts and credit cards denominated in bitcoin, and let them also have the option to validate a bank's books with their own inexpensive full node.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1000
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Visa will never to able to offer anything related with bitcoin with this 1MB block limit because they will not play the bid-for-space war.

The idea is that they won't have to bid all that much because the limit will keep all the little transactions off the block chain and on the 3rd party ledgers. In this way, debts can build up between companies like Visa and get settled on a daily/weekly/monthly basis via the block chain. Yes, that means poor people don't get to anonymously buy anarchy themed lapel pins, but it ensures that poor people can verify that the worlds supply of money has not been corrupted. The only way to perform a legitimate validation of the transaction ledger is to retain a full copy of it on local devices, a task that becomes cost prohibitive as blocks become larger.

Storage is getting cheaper,bandwidth is getting cheaper ever year, by the time bigger blocks come,I think we'll be able to swallow them, just like now...

There is plenty of.lite wallets for anyone who can't be bothered running a full client
full member
Activity: 212
Merit: 100
Daniel P. Barron
Visa will never to able to offer anything related with bitcoin with this 1MB block limit because they will not play the bid-for-space war.

The idea is that they won't have to bid all that much because the limit will keep all the little transactions off the block chain and on the 3rd party ledgers. In this way, debts can build up between companies like Visa and get settled on a daily/weekly/monthly basis via the block chain. Yes, that means poor people don't get to anonymously buy anarchy themed lapel pins, but it ensures that poor people can verify that the worlds supply of money has not been corrupted. The only way to perform a legitimate validation of the transaction ledger is to retain a full copy of it on local devices, a task that becomes cost prohibitive as blocks become larger.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
I'm wondering, if we see bitcoin, or just any cryptocurrency based upon the blockchain principle, large, whether the volume of the chain is not going to be problematic.

If we look at companies such as Visa

Bitcoin doesn't need to compete with Visa....
Visa is a payment processor, and if it wants to remain relevant in the coming decades, it will have to start offering bitcoin denominated lines of credit.

Please take what danielpbarron says with a grain of salt. He is the same guy that is trying really hard to make MP (Mircea Popescu) a really happy boss while he is advocating the keep of a 1MB blocksize limit. Visa will never to able to offer anything related with bitcoin with this 1MB block limit because they will not play the bid-for-space war. danielpbarron is more interested in his power and influence while playing nice for MP than the Bitcoin development!
full member
Activity: 212
Merit: 100
Daniel P. Barron
I'm wondering, if we see bitcoin, or just any cryptocurrency based upon the blockchain principle, large, whether the volume of the chain is not going to be problematic.

If we look at companies such as Visa

Bitcoin doesn't need to compete with Visa. Visa isn't a censorship and counterfeit resistant, perfectly fungible, sounder than gold currency. Visa is a payment processor, and if it wants to remain relevant in the coming decades, it will have to start offering bitcoin denominated lines of credit.

You might want to give this post a read:

IX. "Hard fork block size politics: do we want decentralized digital gold, or just another Visa? We want both. And there's no reason we can't have both."

Actually, there's a damned good reason "we" can't have both : one of them is nonsense. To grok this, tell me, whom do you know in Mali ?

No, not Bali, that island where preppy sluts go for spring break. Mali, the funny-shaped, landlocked West African nation.

Nobody ? Never even heard of anyone from there, never ate in a Mali restaurant, never bought a Mali anything over the mail, as far as you're concerned Mali could just as well not exist at all ? Well, bless you, the sentiment's exactly mutual! As far as they're concerned, the entire population of Mali couldn't give less of a fuck, and you might as well not exist.

Yet your proposal here is that we take everything of everyone : each pair of underwear, each box of notebooks left over from highschool, each car and set of car keys, each coffee mug, each old printer cartridge, each and every single item of everyone, worldwide, and dump them all into a huge warehouse in San Francisco. And then, you say, you'll give everyone receipts to keep track of their stuff. Obviously the receipts will be rather lengthy and complicated an affair, but all the inconvenience, confusion and sheer effort is worth it, you say. Because why ? "Because there's no reason we can't have both". Orly.

I get it, you're a centralist at heart, you want this globalisation thing where everyone's stuff is locked up in Fort Knox so the misfortunate indigents of Mali get to curse the day your pasty ass showed up forcing "democracy" on them. I don't particularly like this outlook, but who am I to tell you how to live your life.

Nevertheless, there's a damned good reason why you can't have both at my expense. You can't ask demand me and my friends and my business partners run complicated, expensive and ultimately pointless computer systems that are required to distinguish our transactions from Mali bound transactions, avoid double spends and all of that simply because you want the world to be a centrally-planned, single-core thing because you're too intellectually lazy and too mentally simple to accomodate the actual variety of the world in your barren skull. I get it, it'd be much simpler for you to think of "everything in Bitcoin".

This simplicity for you has actual costs in the world. If large classes of transactions among which there is no possible cross-ambiguity remain limited to their own context, there's less hassle for everyone involved. Imagine the common occurence of someone sitting in your seat on the airplane. Fortunately, the tickets carry a seat number, which can be compared, and there you go. Imagine instead the Gavinairport where Gavintickets require everyone in the whole airport get out of their planes, single file to the tickets checking office, and have their tickets checked. Every single time someone sits in someone else's seat. And what'd the TSA say to this ? I can almost see them, "there's no reason we can't have it". Of course there isn't, if nobody gives a shit about people or their legitimate interests.

There's no benefit to making everything wait on everything else if large swaths can be readily isolated that'd absolutely never meet. If my blockchain doesn't have to wait for Mali blocks to propagate, and if it doesn't have to to check against Mali doublespends of transactions nobody in Mali could ever be conceivably involved in under any circumstances, then my blockchain is easier to run, to maintain, to debug and so it can provide for the citizens of Mali exactly the only thing they actually want me to provide : a backup value.

They don't perceivably want nor do they conceivably need main chain transactions for every single quarter of cent / West African CFA franc transaction they undertake. What they clearly need and possibly even want is the ability to turn a pile of however many of these they've saved into a few Satoshi. So they can save that, so they can buy Trilema credits, so they can do the few and precious things where they actually interact with the world at large. There's absolutely no need to make every single move they take dependent on the actions of far removed parties that couldn't care less about their interests, needs or proclivities.

Yeah, yeah, you're thinking "but Bitcoin is decentralized". Sure, it's a decentralized implementation. But it is an implementation of a centralized concept. Bitcoin is universal money, and that's quite by definition central. Even if implemented in a decentralized manner, as all usable money always has to be implemented, it nevertheless is a centralized thing, by the very nature of what money has to be in order to be money. Now why marry to this an obligation that's burdensome on everyone and not really useful to anyone ?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
I'm wondering, if we see bitcoin, or just any cryptocurrency based upon the blockchain principle, large, whether the volume of the chain is not going to be problematic.

If we look at companies such as Visa, they processes several thousands of transactions per second.  Now let us assume that the minimum amount of data for a transaction is 100 bytes (send and receive address, and amount and some data) in a transaction-optimised set of cryptocurrencies.  Let us assume that 1000 transactions per second happen.  That means 100 KB per second on the block chain.  That is a data flux that is still reasonable to keep up with, but when accumulated, it is huge.  It is more than 8 GB per day.  The block chains of the cryptocurrencies taking these transactions would grow at a pace of 8 GB a day, which means 3.2 TB a year.

Of course, the burden can be distributed over different cryptos.  You only need to look at the block chain of the crypto you're interested in.  If there would be a few tens of cryptos around, sharing the burden, each chain would only grow with a few hundred GB a year.  But still.  These are big volumes, even in the future.
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
Thank you very much! Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1000
Si vis pacem, para bellum
--snip--
Bandwidth, well, I guess it depends on your location, but generally all these cable and DSL providers are all about downstream and give jack shit for upstream, at least in the US.
It's the same in the EU and I think probably in the rest of the world too. I think they do this to prevent you from running a server from home for cheap.
Nope.
I do not know what you consider at a low speed, but here ,in Russia, I pay 450 rubles($7.44 or €6.87)(per month) for 50 Mbit/s upstream and 50 Mbit/s downstream.


in sweden most people have more
the average is 56-57MB   but many people have 100MB/s  package
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 251
--snip--
Bandwidth, well, I guess it depends on your location, but generally all these cable and DSL providers are all about downstream and give jack shit for upstream, at least in the US.
It's the same in the EU and I think probably in the rest of the world too. I think they do this to prevent you from running a server from home for cheap.
Nope.
I do not know what you consider at a low speed, but here ,in Russia, I pay 450 rubles($7.44 or €6.87)(per month) for 50 Mbit/s upstream and 50 Mbit/s downstream.


Good to know then! Thanks for the info.
In countries I have lived so far the upload was always a 10th of the download speed.
That's bad, in Singapore, upload was always higher than download no matter how I test it and the speed is always at or above the promised speed by my ISP(300mbps)

I seriously have never seen/heard of this. But its cool. 300 mbps, is awesome. The highest I had was 50 mbps and that was for 30 GBP a month! Upload was around 10.
legendary
Activity: 2954
Merit: 4158
--snip--
Bandwidth, well, I guess it depends on your location, but generally all these cable and DSL providers are all about downstream and give jack shit for upstream, at least in the US.
It's the same in the EU and I think probably in the rest of the world too. I think they do this to prevent you from running a server from home for cheap.
Nope.
I do not know what you consider at a low speed, but here ,in Russia, I pay 450 rubles($7.44 or €6.87)(per month) for 50 Mbit/s upstream and 50 Mbit/s downstream.


Good to know then! Thanks for the info.
In countries I have lived so far the upload was always a 10th of the download speed.
That's bad, in Singapore, upload was always higher than download no matter how I test it and the speed is always at or above the promised speed by my ISP(300mbps)
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 251
--snip--
Bandwidth, well, I guess it depends on your location, but generally all these cable and DSL providers are all about downstream and give jack shit for upstream, at least in the US.
It's the same in the EU and I think probably in the rest of the world too. I think they do this to prevent you from running a server from home for cheap.
Nope.
I do not know what you consider at a low speed, but here ,in Russia, I pay 450 rubles($7.44 or €6.87)(per month) for 50 Mbit/s upstream and 50 Mbit/s downstream.


Good to know then! Thanks for the info.
In countries I have lived so far the upload was always a 10th of the download speed.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1011
Agree. Many people simply can't afford so much storage space. 30 something GB is simply a lot.
Oldish laptops with 80 GB of HDD have a hard time with the blockchain maybe even impossible.

I have an old PC for bitcoin (and others P2P tools ...)
but if you have SATA ... you can buy a cheap 1To drive ... or a cheap 256Go SSD now.

not the point. Wink
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1011












... i want this ...
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1000
--snip--
Bandwidth, well, I guess it depends on your location, but generally all these cable and DSL providers are all about downstream and give jack shit for upstream, at least in the US.
It's the same in the EU and I think probably in the rest of the world too. I think they do this to prevent you from running a server from home for cheap.
Nope.
I do not know what you consider at a low speed, but here ,in Russia, I pay 450 rubles($7.44 or €6.87)(per month) for 50 Mbit/s upstream and 50 Mbit/s downstream.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 251
--snip--
Bandwidth, well, I guess it depends on your location, but generally all these cable and DSL providers are all about downstream and give jack shit for upstream, at least in the US.
It's the same in the EU and I think probably in the rest of the world too. I think they do this to prevent you from running a server from home for cheap.

I do not mind it but when you have to look at setting up a separate HDD for it is not good. I do like BTC but when it comes to such amounts of space a lot of people in 3rd worlds will not use it simply because of the data and amount that is needed to be downloaded and then continue to download small amounts. Moved over to block chain and paper wallets for now till at least this gets reduced in size. even android wallets dont use up this amount of space nor do other btc wallets.

Agree. Many people simply can't afford so much storage space. 30 something GB is simply a lot.
Oldish laptops with 80 GB of HDD have a hard time with the blockchain maybe even impossible if you want to use it or anything else like web browsing, for which it would be perfectly capable. Even more, I had a laptop with 250 GB and I was fighting with Bitcoin for every last bit of space on the HDD (OS, work software, work data etc +bitcoin).
full member
Activity: 212
Merit: 100
Daniel P. Barron
I do not mind it but when you have to look at setting up a separate HDD for it is not good. I do like BTC but when it comes to such amounts of space a lot of people in 3rd worlds will not use it simply because of the data and amount that is needed to be downloaded and then continue to download small amounts. Moved over to block chain and paper wallets for now till at least this gets reduced in size. even android wallets dont use up this amount of space nor do other btc wallets.

It doesn't really matter what you like, and this point about 3rd world people has been refuted. I snipped out the relevant bit, but you would be well advised to read the rest of the post.

V. The fork is needed because otherwise some people won't be able to use Bitcoin.

Bitcoin isn't for everybody. Creating something useful that everyone can use is an exercise in trying to create something that's useful but worthless. Such a thing may exist, in the sense perpetuum mobile may exist. As far as the science of physics goes, they do not.

Should blocks ever become full, older coinbases will be prioritized over newer coinbases, and larger mining fees and transactions prioritized over smaller mining fees and smaller transactions. This means that someone who wishes to pay for very little with Bitcoin will be forced to use something else, so to speak is forced to "give his seat" to someone richer. This is exactly the point and the intent of Bitcoin : to force the poor to yield to the rich, unversally, as a matter of course.

You may not like this, but that is entirely an emotional problem of yours, which you're welcome to resolve any way you can : stop being poor, take a lot of pills, whatever. You may try to solve it by attempting to make it impossible for the rich to construct tools that they will then use to force you to yield to them, but this will necessarily not work : being rich means by definition they have more resources than you, and whatever you devise they can make a counter.

If you are more practically inclined, and having understood, accepted and come to terms with your fundamental human inferiority as it flows from your poverty, some solutions to your predicament of "I wish to buy myself a basket" have already been discussed :

Quote
For the reasons noted and for many other reasons I am pretty much satisfied that Bitcoin is not nor will it ever be a direct means of payment for retail anything. You may end up paying for a month's worth of coffee vouchers at your favourite coffee shop via Bitcoin (so shop scrip built on top of Bitcoin), you may end up settling your accounts monthly at the restaurant in Bitcoin (so store credit built on top of Bitcoin), you will probably cash into whatever local currency from Bitcoin (be it Unified Standard Dubaloos or Universally Simplified Dosidoes or whatever else) but all that is entirely different a story.

Run along now, back to playing in the mud with the other naked kids in your village. Bitcoin's just not for your kind.
legendary
Activity: 1820
Merit: 1001
I do not mind it but when you have to look at setting up a separate HDD for it is not good. I do like BTC but when it comes to such amounts of space a lot of people in 3rd worlds will not use it simply because of the data and amount that is needed to be downloaded and then continue to download small amounts. Moved over to block chain and paper wallets for now till at least this gets reduced in size. even android wallets dont use up this amount of space nor do other btc wallets.
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