[Boxing] Nonito Donaire vs Alejandro Santiago for WBC bantamweight title - page 2.

Japinat

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Quote from: bisdak40 on July 31, 2023, 06:24:02 AM

Quote from: Yamifoud on July 30, 2023, 04:46:43 AM

I don't think anyone here expected Donaire to lose, but it turns out the opposite happened. We thought Santiago would be a good match for Donaire's target to KO his opponent, but Santiago has matured and knows how to play the game well. He clearly knew how to beat Donaire, resulting in a unanimous decision win.

What can I say, I guess it's time for Donaire to hang up his gloves. He is already old, and it's evident he doesn't have the same activity he had in the past. To think that Santiago isn't even a top contender, and he still defeated Donaire via UD, that's enough to conclude his boxing journey is over.

Congratulations to Santiago! It was a good win for him, and now he is the champion.

It's just that Donaire can't pull the trigger anymore and yup nobody expected (at least we Filipinos) of this outcome. Santiago is ranked lower then in the minds of an ordinary fans, this fight is one that would make Donaire look good in the ring and once again break another record but turned out that this could be the end of his colorful career, nothing to be ashamed of and nothing else to prove so yeah, it's time to hang up the gloves for good.

Congrats to those who back Santiago, very juice odds.

Nobody surely saw that coming and we can somehow tell from the odds that most of the bettors were putting their money towards Donaire to win, which is very reasonable as how could we go against him against a boxer that is not yet making any name in the industry and haven't got a good fight. Well, after this, safe to say that his rankings will improve a lot because defeating Donaire is such a great achievement.

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Quote from: bisdak40 on July 31, 2023, 06:24:02 AM

Quote from: Yamifoud on July 30, 2023, 04:46:43 AM

I don't think anyone here expected Donaire to lose, but it turns out the opposite happened. We thought Santiago would be a good match for Donaire's target to KO his opponent, but Santiago has matured and knows how to play the game well. He clearly knew how to beat Donaire, resulting in a unanimous decision win.

What can I say, I guess it's time for Donaire to hang up his gloves. He is already old, and it's evident he doesn't have the same activity he had in the past. To think that Santiago isn't even a top contender, and he still defeated Donaire via UD, that's enough to conclude his boxing journey is over.

Congratulations to Santiago! It was a good win for him, and now he is the champion.

It's just that Donaire can't pull the trigger anymore and yup nobody expected (at least we Filipinos) of this outcome. Santiago is ranked lower then in the minds of an ordinary fans, this fight is one that would make Donaire look good in the ring and once again break another record but turned out that this could be the end of his colorful career, nothing to be ashamed of and nothing else to prove so yeah, it's time to hang up the gloves for good.

Congrats to those who back Santiago, very juice odds.

Yup, there's nothing to prove he got his chance during his prime and we know how he performs before,

But after this loss, it's better to hang his gloves and not to think about fighting again. In his age, health is important. Good thing
that there's no further major damage after the fight, it might be a good blessing and a good way to say his farewell in the
ring.

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Quote from: Yamifoud on July 30, 2023, 04:46:43 AM

I don't think anyone here expected Donaire to lose, but it turns out the opposite happened. We thought Santiago would be a good match for Donaire's target to KO his opponent, but Santiago has matured and knows how to play the game well. He clearly knew how to beat Donaire, resulting in a unanimous decision win.

What can I say, I guess it's time for Donaire to hang up his gloves. He is already old, and it's evident he doesn't have the same activity he had in the past. To think that Santiago isn't even a top contender, and he still defeated Donaire via UD, that's enough to conclude his boxing journey is over.

Congratulations to Santiago! It was a good win for him, and now he is the champion.

It's just that Donaire can't pull the trigger anymore and yup nobody expected (at least we Filipinos) of this outcome. Santiago is ranked lower then in the minds of an ordinary fans, this fight is one that would make Donaire look good in the ring and once again break another record but turned out that this could be the end of his colorful career, nothing to be ashamed of and nothing else to prove so yeah, it's time to hang up the gloves for good.

Congrats to those who back Santiago, very juice odds.

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Quote from: dothebeats on July 30, 2023, 06:25:23 AM

Quote from: avp2306 on July 30, 2023, 04:58:09 AM

Quote from: coin-investor on July 30, 2023, 02:57:24 AM

Quote from: avp2306 on July 30, 2023, 01:51:13 AM

I think his career is totally over now since we can't see a furious Donaire as same as before. Age is showing up and that's the reason why he keep losing to much younger opponents.

I hope his wife will tell him that, he is listening to his wife and also a fighter herself for a boxer the last to give up is the mind and the heart, on this match his speed and power are not there anymore I hope he and his family will see this fight and decide to give up, we all want Donaire to have a graceful exit but two successive losses where he is badly beaten is not a motivation to continue, he is multiple champions, it has been a great journey after he won the title against Vic Darchinyan with a one-punch, fifth-round knockout (KO), the best time is now we don't want him to get badly injured in his next fight.

For sure her wife tell him to consider retirement but I guess Nonito is the one arranging a fight for his self then just tell it to her wife that he like to fight for some particular fighter. Its his passion so I guess her wife just supporting Donaire this is the reason why he still on the canvass fighting.

But as of the moment he got 2nd straight losses so I guess this is enough. Nonito need to retire before his career and health will be ruined since he can continue his passion by teaching new generation of Filipino fighters which have potential to became a world champions in future.

I doubt Donaire will go for another one after this, though it's not uncommon for fighters to retire after their last win. His camp will surely think this through and might even give him options to just let things go and hang his gloves for good. Santiago is not known to be a heavy hitter and his stamina is comparatively weak compared to a veteran Donaire, but I think the latter's age is slowly catching up, and Santiago beat him just by a short margin earning him the decision.

Even if Donaire's wife supports him in his passion, his body and age will surely be something that will not help him in his ventures to get that final win before retirement.

He already consider a retirement before but he always go for another fight, so we don't know yet what will be his next move after those defeats he encounter since no official statement coming from his camp regarding on this possible retirement. Only his fans asking this to happen since many of his fans don't want to see him get defeated for another time again or even worse encounter a health issue which he might regret for the rest of his life.

Maybe for now let see the updates regarding on this since maybe he don't really consider this yet since in his mind he can still fight.

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Quote from: Distinctin on July 31, 2023, 01:49:50 AM

Quote from: harizen on July 30, 2023, 06:34:24 PM

Technically speaking, Donaire has the chance of winning the fight but I admit, he becomes careless after getting a nice Round 3. That might fuel his eagerness to think that he will win. However, maybe got overwhelmed, his aggressiveness start to show where in fact, at the current point of his career, patience is a must as he's fighting a young core.

Moving forward, Donaire being defeated in a unanimous decision is already an obvious reason to now call it a career and that's it.

The fight is not even close. Something a good reference to consider retiring.

I already mentioned before that if he can't beat an unranked boxer like Santiago, he is unable to keep up with other boxers in the Bantamweight division. Good for Alejandro Santiago that after getting a chance to have a shot at the world title, his dream now finally achieved and will began working on his future goals.

Donaire lost his focus; he probably underestimated his opponent and had only one strategy, which was to KO Santiago. However, it didn't happen as Santiago had prepared well for his strategy. He understood the strength of Donaire's counter punch, so he was careful every time and remained calm, focusing on their strategy.

I'm not sure if Donaire will change his mind, but hopefully, he will consider retirement. After all, no one boxes forever, and professional boxing is only for the strong ones. The fact that he got defeated is already a signal that he may not be as fast and strong as he was before.

Maybe, like other popular boxers, he can go for exhibition fights after retiring. That way, he can still make money and enjoy boxing with less risk.

Perhaps he was looking for a early knockout because that's what he usually do to smaller fighters that he has face in the past. However, it will be a very bad idea for a experience and veteran boxer like Donaire. So I disagree about him looking for a one punch knockout, and just focus on that strategy.

For me it's already a sign that Donaire is already old and obviously he is way past his prime already. And I agree and believed that Inoue knockout on him really took everything from him as he was not the same anymore.

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Quote from: harizen on July 30, 2023, 06:34:24 PM

Technically speaking, Donaire has the chance of winning the fight but I admit, he becomes careless after getting a nice Round 3. That might fuel his eagerness to think that he will win. However, maybe got overwhelmed, his aggressiveness start to show where in fact, at the current point of his career, patience is a must as he's fighting a young core.

Moving forward, Donaire being defeated in a unanimous decision is already an obvious reason to now call it a career and that's it.

The fight is not even close. Something a good reference to consider retiring.

I already mentioned before that if he can't beat an unranked boxer like Santiago, he is unable to keep up with other boxers in the Bantamweight division. Good for Alejandro Santiago that after getting a chance to have a shot at the world title, his dream now finally achieved and will began working on his future goals.

Donaire lost his focus; he probably underestimated his opponent and had only one strategy, which was to KO Santiago. However, it didn't happen as Santiago had prepared well for his strategy. He understood the strength of Donaire's counter punch, so he was careful every time and remained calm, focusing on their strategy.

I'm not sure if Donaire will change his mind, but hopefully, he will consider retirement. After all, no one boxes forever, and professional boxing is only for the strong ones. The fact that he got defeated is already a signal that he may not be as fast and strong as he was before.

Maybe, like other popular boxers, he can go for exhibition fights after retiring. That way, he can still make money and enjoy boxing with less risk.

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Quote from: BitcoinPanther on July 30, 2023, 03:07:52 PM

It is not a surprise to see Donaire loss the fight because he gotten impatient and wanted to impress the fans by knocking out Santiago which backfires to him. Instead of taking advantage of his reach and movement he aims to KO his opponent and wanted to hit that 1 punch KO either through counter or lead punch forgetting jobs. Santiago is also more active throwing jabs and punches outboxing Nonito Donaire.

It is somehow a disappointing performance from Nonito Donaire but it should be be expected due to the old age. I also think that this is the sign that Nonito need to hand the gloves. He already had proven himself and nothing more to prove. He was a great boxer but I believe those time had already passed.

Yeah that's the most exact thing to say about his performance. He could have win it though if that was not his game plan. I think he may have underestimated his opponent a little bit because Santiago is not a KO puncher.
Nevertheless, there's nothing else to prove now, he's literally done as father time have finally catches up. Not unless if he still continue to fight for the money, he could have exhibition matches just like the other boxing legend does these days. However, professional matches makes more money than exhibitions though. But seriously, Nonito will never going to be an exciting fighter as he was going forward if he chooses to continue his career despite of his age.
That was a good fight though, good job for Santiago for being patient as he was trying to win not to KO his opponent and came up with the result the way he want it.

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Quote from: serjent05 on July 30, 2023, 06:43:40 PM

Quote from: goaldigger on July 30, 2023, 04:39:21 PM

This could be over for Donaire though he show a great fight but losing at that age means already a retirement. Donaire already made our country proud and maybe its time now to hang the gloves and focus more on developing the younger generations. Its ok to lose my bet with him at least he showed his true spirit its just that this fight was not for him.

Yeah instead of pushing himself hard, it is better for him to train new generations of boxers, with his rich experience and abilities, he might develop a new Filipino flash among his students.

Many fans request to hang his gloves since he already done enough and there's nothing to prove since he already accumulated the legendary title. But for asking for more fight like this it creates assumption that maybe Donaire is now for money. But hopefully not but he really need to listen to his fellow countrymen that he need to retire since he's body clearly dictating that to him. Those 2 consecutive lose is already an indicator for him to have a graceful retirement rather than facing health issues in future.

Would be more better if he could just train new generation of boxers since from that he can help potential kids to enhance their skills and maybe in future they became a world champion like him.

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Quote from: goaldigger on July 30, 2023, 04:39:21 PM

This could be over for Donaire though he show a great fight but losing at that age means already a retirement. Donaire already made our country proud and maybe its time now to hang the gloves and focus more on developing the younger generations. Its ok to lose my bet with him at least he showed his true spirit its just that this fight was not for him.

Donaire had proven himself as a great fighter and ca perform a gret fight but due to being past his prime, it is a sure thing that he will be struggling to the more younger boxer. I do not know what is in the mind of Donaire still thinking that he is still capable to fight when the suppose to be an easy fight for him when he is in his prime and even a few years after his prime years gives him difficulty. I also agree with the earlier reply that this time, Donaire's wife should intervene and talk and request Donaire to hang his gloves.

Yeah instead of pushing himself hard, it is better for him to train new generations of boxers, with his rich experience and abilities, he might develop a new Filipino flash among his students.

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Technically speaking, Donaire has the chance of winning the fight but I admit, he becomes careless after getting a nice Round 3. That might fuel his eagerness to think that he will win. However, maybe got overwhelmed, his aggressiveness start to show where in fact, at the current point of his career, patience is a must as he's fighting a young core.

Moving forward, Donaire being defeated in a unanimous decision is already an obvious reason to now call it a career and that's it.

The fight is not even close. Something a good reference to consider retiring.

I already mentioned before that if he can't beat an unranked boxer like Santiago, he is unable to keep up with other boxers in the Bantamweight division. Good for Alejandro Santiago that after getting a chance to have a shot at the world title, his dream now finally achieved and will began working on his future goals.

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Quote from: BitcoinPanther on July 30, 2023, 03:07:52 PM

It is not a surprise to see Donaire loss the fight because he gotten impatient and wanted to impress the fans by knocking out Santiago which backfires to him. Instead of taking advantage of his reach and movement he aims to KO his opponent and wanted to hit that 1 punch KO either through counter or lead punch forgetting jobs. Santiago is also more active throwing jabs and punches outboxing Nonito Donaire.

It is somehow a disappointing performance from Nonito Donaire but it should be be expected due to the old age. I also think that this is the sign that Nonito need to hand the gloves. He already had proven himself and nothing more to prove. He was a great boxer but I believe those time had already passed.

This could be over for Donaire though he show a great fight but losing at that age means already a retirement. Donaire already made our country proud and maybe its time now to hang the gloves and focus more on developing the younger generations. Its ok to lose my bet with him at least he showed his true spirit its just that this fight was not for him.

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Quote from: TimeTeller on July 30, 2023, 03:24:59 PM

Quote from: BitcoinPanther on July 30, 2023, 03:07:52 PM

It is not a surprise to see Donaire loss the fight because he gotten impatient and wanted to impress the fans by knocking out Santiago which backfires to him. Instead of taking advantage of his reach and movement he aims to KO his opponent and wanted to hit that 1 punch KO either through counter or lead punch forgetting jobs. Santiago is also more active throwing jabs and punches outboxing Nonito Donaire.

It is somehow a disappointing performance from Nonito Donaire but it should be be expected due to the old age. I also think that this is the sign that Nonito need to hand the gloves. He already had proven himself and nothing more to prove. He was a great boxer but I believe those time had already passed.

Indeed! Time to hang the gloves and give the ring to younger boxers. Enjoy his retirement with his family.
There are no news yet about his upcoming plans but I do believe his wife as well as his trainer, maybe is already thinking about retiring him.
Though I thought this fight would still be on Donaire's favor, however, Santiago really did a very good fight here upsetting Donaire.
Just like Pacquiao, Donaire was losing his power inside the ring. Just be grateful that he will retire in good shape and no other bad injury.

He can still be in this sport if he decides to retire, he already showing an interest in promoting and helping other fighters
it will be another good venue for him to focus if ever he decided to retire.

I do agree that maybe his wife as a manager will help him to decide for his future plans, we saw the match and the power
is no longer with him,

he manage to convert that left hook but Santiago manage to absorb the punch and was able to stand
and finished the match.

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Quote from: BitcoinPanther on July 30, 2023, 03:07:52 PM

It is not a surprise to see Donaire loss the fight because he gotten impatient and wanted to impress the fans by knocking out Santiago which backfires to him. Instead of taking advantage of his reach and movement he aims to KO his opponent and wanted to hit that 1 punch KO either through counter or lead punch forgetting jobs. Santiago is also more active throwing jabs and punches outboxing Nonito Donaire.

It is somehow a disappointing performance from Nonito Donaire but it should be be expected due to the old age. I also think that this is the sign that Nonito need to hand the gloves. He already had proven himself and nothing more to prove. He was a great boxer but I believe those time had already passed.

Indeed! Time to hang the gloves and give the ring to younger boxers. Enjoy his retirement with his family.
There are no news yet about his upcoming plans but I do believe his wife as well as his trainer, maybe is already thinking about retiring him.
Though I thought this fight would still be on Donaire's favor, however, Santiago really did a very good fight here upsetting Donaire.
Just like Pacquiao, Donaire was losing his power inside the ring. Just be grateful that he will retire in good shape and no other bad injury.

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It is not a surprise to see Donaire loss the fight because he gotten impatient and wanted to impress the fans by knocking out Santiago which backfires to him. Instead of taking advantage of his reach and movement he aims to KO his opponent and wanted to hit that 1 punch KO either through counter or lead punch forgetting jobs. Santiago is also more active throwing jabs and punches outboxing Nonito Donaire.

It is somehow a disappointing performance from Nonito Donaire but it should be be expected due to the old age. I also think that this is the sign that Nonito need to hand the gloves. He already had proven himself and nothing more to prove. He was a great boxer but I believe those time had already passed.

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Quote from: Jating on July 30, 2023, 03:37:05 AM

Quote from: coin-investor on July 30, 2023, 02:57:24 AM

Quote from: avp2306 on July 30, 2023, 01:51:13 AM

I think his career is totally over now since we can't see a furious Donaire as same as before. Age is showing up and that's the reason why he keep losing to much younger opponents.

I hope his wife will tell him that, he is listening to his wife and also a fighter herself for a boxer the last to give up is the mind and the heart, on this match his speed and power are not there anymore I hope he and his family will see this fight and decide to give up, we all want Donaire to have a graceful exit but two successive losses where he is badly beaten is not a motivation to continue, he is multiple champions, it has been a great journey after he won the title against Vic Darchinyan with a one-punch, fifth-round knockout (KO), the best time is now we don't want him to get badly injured in his next fight.

Yes, him and his wife should have a sit down and maybe it's time for Nonito to give up his boxing and maybe focus on other things. Not sure though if Nonito has contract with Richard Schaefer. And if he has then maybe just 1 fight in the contract and that's it for Nonito.

Really hard to see Nonito in this stage, we thought that he is still the stronger, faster, but it seems his timing is off here and Santiago found a chink in his armor that's why he has a good time hitting Donaire and constructing his face after the time.

This time, that will surely happen where they will discuss their future together while leaving the boxing industry for good. Donaire already had a good run during his career and there is nothing left for him to prove that again. Time for him to pass the torch to his fellow countrymen who are still active in the business.
I deeply understand that he wanted to be a champion again before making an exit because certainly, that is the dream of every boxer with a smile on their face while giving a testament that they will hang their gloves. It's just that he was a bit too late because he got no time left to make it happen.

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Quote from: Pamadar on July 30, 2023, 06:38:49 AM

A back-to-back loss might be a good sign for him to hang his gloves. He doesn't have to prove anything anymore.

That's a good decision because as far as his performance was told earlier, he is not capable of giving the best he can like how he used to be in his prime. Now all he needs to do is take a rest and live his life to the fullest because he no longer has something to prove since we all know that every beginning has its end and this is the end of his era. If he wants he can build a boxing gym to train new boxers that will gonna be the next champ and I'm sure he will have lots to share about his experience also he can train a boxer that is way stronger than him in the future.

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Quote from: Yamifoud on July 30, 2023, 04:46:43 AM

I don't think anyone here expected Donaire to lose, but it turns out the opposite happened. We thought Santiago would be a good match for Donaire's target to KO his opponent, but Santiago has matured and knows how to play the game well. He clearly knew how to beat Donaire, resulting in a unanimous decision win.

What can I say, I guess it's time for Donaire to hang up his gloves. He is already old, and it's evident he doesn't have the same activity he had in the past. To think that Santiago isn't even a top contender, and he still defeated Donaire via UD, that's enough to conclude his boxing journey is over.

Congratulations to Santiago! It was a good win for him, and now he is the champion.

A back-to-back loss might be a good sign for him to hang his gloves. He doesn't have to prove anything anymore.

He got his chance way back from his prime years. Now it's time to give way to the ring for those who are well-deserving aspirants.
Congrats to Santiago even it's really un-expected, but he played well, his strategy to stay and finished the fight strong, UD win
is far better than losing the fight.

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Quote from: dothebeats on July 30, 2023, 06:25:23 AM

I doubt Donaire will go for another one after this, though it's not uncommon for fighters to retire after their last win. His camp will surely think this through and might even give him options to just let things go and hang his gloves for good. Santiago is not known to be a heavy hitter and his stamina is comparatively weak compared to a veteran Donaire, but I think the latter's age is slowly catching up, and Santiago beat him just by a short margin earning him the decision.

Even if Donaire's wife supports him in his passion, his body and age will surely be something that will not help him in his ventures to get that final win before retirement.

Let's wait for his announcement as eventually, he will be able to think wisely about whether it's time to retire. Just like when Pacman lost to Ugas, when interviewed after the fight, he didn't say that he would retire. However, after months of probably thinking it over, he came to the decision of retiring. Boxing is a sport for young boxers, and if the body cannot cooperate, then there's no reason to stay. Besides, Donaire has already accomplished a lot in boxing; it's time for him to give young boxers the opportunity to achieve the success they are dreaming of.

Donaire's retirement would reduce the number of active Filipino boxers, but it is what it is. Maybe one day, we will see someone like him or even like Pacman who will again bring pride to the country.

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Quote from: avp2306 on July 30, 2023, 04:58:09 AM

Quote from: coin-investor on July 30, 2023, 02:57:24 AM

Quote from: avp2306 on July 30, 2023, 01:51:13 AM

I think his career is totally over now since we can't see a furious Donaire as same as before. Age is showing up and that's the reason why he keep losing to much younger opponents.

I hope his wife will tell him that, he is listening to his wife and also a fighter herself for a boxer the last to give up is the mind and the heart, on this match his speed and power are not there anymore I hope he and his family will see this fight and decide to give up, we all want Donaire to have a graceful exit but two successive losses where he is badly beaten is not a motivation to continue, he is multiple champions, it has been a great journey after he won the title against Vic Darchinyan with a one-punch, fifth-round knockout (KO), the best time is now we don't want him to get badly injured in his next fight.

For sure her wife tell him to consider retirement but I guess Nonito is the one arranging a fight for his self then just tell it to her wife that he like to fight for some particular fighter. Its his passion so I guess her wife just supporting Donaire this is the reason why he still on the canvass fighting.

But as of the moment he got 2nd straight losses so I guess this is enough. Nonito need to retire before his career and health will be ruined since he can continue his passion by teaching new generation of Filipino fighters which have potential to became a world champions in future.

I doubt Donaire will go for another one after this, though it's not uncommon for fighters to retire after their last win. His camp will surely think this through and might even give him options to just let things go and hang his gloves for good. Santiago is not known to be a heavy hitter and his stamina is comparatively weak compared to a veteran Donaire, but I think the latter's age is slowly catching up, and Santiago beat him just by a short margin earning him the decision.

Even if Donaire's wife supports him in his passion, his body and age will surely be something that will not help him in his ventures to get that final win before retirement.

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Quote from: avp2306 on July 30, 2023, 04:58:09 AM

Quote from: coin-investor on July 30, 2023, 02:57:24 AM

Quote from: avp2306 on July 30, 2023, 01:51:13 AM

I think his career is totally over now since we can't see a furious Donaire as same as before. Age is showing up and that's the reason why he keep losing to much younger opponents.

I hope his wife will tell him that, he is listening to his wife and also a fighter herself for a boxer the last to give up is the mind and the heart, on this match his speed and power are not there anymore I hope he and his family will see this fight and decide to give up, we all want Donaire to have a graceful exit but two successive losses where he is badly beaten is not a motivation to continue, he is multiple champions, it has been a great journey after he won the title against Vic Darchinyan with a one-punch, fifth-round knockout (KO), the best time is now we don't want him to get badly injured in his next fight.

For sure her wife tell him to consider retirement but I guess Nonito is the one arranging a fight for his self then just tell it to her wife that he like to fight for some particular fighter. Its his passion so I guess her wife just supporting Donaire this is the reason why he still on the canvass fighting.

But as of the moment he got 2nd straight losses so I guess this is enough. Nonito need to retire before his career and health will be ruined since he can continue his passion by teaching new generation of Filipino fighters which have potential to became a world champions in future.

He is not getting younger, so I think he needs to call it a career. Although it's still in his mind that he wants to make history by being the oldest champion, his body can no longer compete well against the younger champions. He has all the advantages (except for his age against Santiago), but despite his reach and being the taller boxer, he was still outscored in the end.

Donaire has already achieved plenty of success in boxing; maybe he needs to consider that already and try to enjoy his life after boxing. If he really loves boxing, then he can still continue to love it, but not by fighting in the ring anymore. Instead, he could consider being a coach or a trainer; there are lots of ways for him to contribute without risking his health against younger competitors.

Topic: [Boxing] Nonito Donaire vs Alejandro Santiago for WBC bantamweight title - page 2. (Read 4413 times)