Topic: [BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 84. (Read 198958 times)

When will be the next Rise of the Difficulty?
Approx.  20%?

What's the estimated Dividend of SELLING by that time?

MINING dividends are paid out of the money held by the fund (the "capital"). According to the contract, any money not used to pay MINING dividends is eventually paid to SELLING as dividends.

The fund only keeps enough capital to pay 400 days worth of MINING dividends at the current difficulty. Any excess over 400 days is paid to SELLING as dividends.

If you look back a few pages to when SELLING got its last dividend there's a lot of explanation around there.

Put simply, after a rise in difficulty capital is examined and how many days of dividends (for MINING) it covers is calculated at the new higher difficulty.  If that number is more than 410 (days) then SELLING gets a dividend such that it reduces capital to 400 days of cover (of MINING's dividend at the new higher difficulty).  The check to see if a dividend should be paid (and payment where appropriate) occurs after payment of a dividend to MINING.

Could someone explain how DMS.SELLING gets their dividends paid out (in layman's terms or via an example)?

I've already read the contract.

The LTC-ATF.B1 bonds were NOT newly issued ones.  They were ones I already personally owned - either bought by me via the market or bought by me personally from people who wanted to sell theirs.  Thats why if you look at dividends you'll see that the same 250k shares were paid dividends before AND after I transferred these to the fund.  

If you read through the LTC-ATF thread you'll find one example in there of me personally buying the bonds.  TAT wanted to cashout 5500 of his bonds (to get out of BTC before the drop in its price).  The fund bought back 2k (20 BTC) of them at its rate of 99% and I took the other 3.5k (35 BTC) myself at full face value (as I'd personally already liquidated all the BTC I wanted to before the expected drop).  Private purchases like that (which don't effect the fund at all) aren't usually disclosed - that one was as usagi had claimed the 2K drop in outstanding bonds was me selling to myself then selling back after a dividend (which would be a remarkable dumb way for me to steal money given I could just transfer it).  TAT confirmed he'd done the deal with me - to close that stupid idea down (though it was provably wrong anyway).

So there was no increase in debt as a result of this fund getting the LTC-ATF.B1.

You also need to understand a bit more about how LTC-ATF works.  It's valued and priced in LTC - but trades a lot in BTC.  CUrrency exposure is reduced by the existence of the LTC-ATF.B1 bonds.  The majority of BTC trading is done with funds raised by the bonds - as that is offset by a BTC-denominated liabilty (the face value of the bonds) it greatly reduces LTC-ATF's exposure to BTC (and also retains most profit for LTC-ATF).  The excess capital LTC-ATF has is LTC-denominated.  We can't use that for BTC trading - as we'd then expose ourself to exchange-rate risk.  So we're often in the position of needing more BTC and less LTC (as we make profit - and that profit ends up being held as ~85% LTC denominated whilst LTC-denominated activity is probably only 20-25% of what we do).

If this fund needs to liquidate the LTC-ATF.B1 then at present there's two ways of doing it:

1.  Sell back to LTC-ATF at 99% of face value.
2.  Sell back to me at full face value.

LTC-ATF.B1 are backed by ALL the assets of LTC-ATF, which has no other debts.

At present there are 250 BTC worth of LTC-ATF.B1 (at full face value).
LTC-ATF's gross assets are approximately 325 BTC worth of BTC-denominated assets and 350 BTC worth of LTC-denominated assets.  So well over double the value of the bonds.  And of that ~675 BTC worth of assets over 91% is in actual cash (BTC or LTC).  It's rare cash falls below 85% - as we trade not invest so our whole game-plan is about not having cash stuck in actual assets for too long.

At present (and nearly always) LTC-ATF could pay off all the bonds AND buy out every unit of LTC-ATF not owned by me personally without having to liquidate ANYTHING.  That's nearly always the case - and is why LTC-ATF can constantly maintain a bid-wall for over 1/3 of its outstanding units at about 98% or so of NAV.

In practice if difficulty fell a lot and we had to liquidate the LTC-ATF.B1 I'd just buy them back myself at face value - same as the fund got them for.  Saves a lot of hassle and moving funds around.  That may change shortly - to where it would be better for the fund (AND for LTC-ATF) to sell back to LTC-ATF but that's an announcement that I'll make if/when it proves to be the case.  In any event LTC-ATF has about 275 BTC cash so could comfortably buy them back without even having to exchange any LTC and then resell at face+1% easily - so redemption is no problem whatsoever.

As I alluded to above, there'll likely be a change shortly in the way LTC-ATF handles bonds/debt.  That change will have zero negative impact on this fund - and possibly a positive one.

A couple of questions, Deprived, regarding the LTC-ATF.B1 bonds.

I don't think I've seen an market buy of those bonds, so I'm assuming you've issued them privately as the numbers of bonds listed on BTCT has remained steady. How does this affect the LTF-ATF fund? Just recently you stated that the fund had too much money and you wanted to reduce the funds by issuing a dividend. Will not a private issuing of 125 BTC significantly increase the debt of that fund?

When or if you need to liquidate the LTC-ATF.B1, how do you intend to do that? There isn't nearly enough bids at the market (nor have I seen) to trade openly. Is there a guarantee that these bonds will be liquidated by the normal redeem procedures of the bond? If so, what is this backing? Will the LTC-ATF holders be affected if, in theory, difficulty dropped considerably?

.b

DMS.MINING
bid price: ฿ 0.012551
Dividend: ฿ 0.00013

Dividend it's more than 1% x day.

Sold   202
Swapped   0
Total   202
Price   0.05419
Total   10.94638
Less Fee   10.92448724
Man Fee   0.327734617
   
Units   16235
Excess Div   0.00003111
Refund   0.50507085

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)    976.32168484
12500 LTC-ATF.B1    125.00000000
TOTAL ASSETS    1,101.32168484
   
Outstanding MINING   21056
Outstanding SELLING   21056
Outstanding PURCHASE   280
Effective Units   21336
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   19,339,258
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00013002
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00650111
100 days (Forced Close)    0.01300222
365 days (Buyback)    0.04745810
405 days (IPO)    0.05265898
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.05200887
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.05330910
   
NAV Post MINING Div    1,098.54753150
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.05148798
Days Dividend Post Div   395.99
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,098.54753150
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.05148798
PURCHASE selling price    0.05406238
PURCHASE buy-back price    0.05045822

Sorry - I'll try to get back to that today.

Any progress on additional investment opportunities?

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)    968.47114028
12500 LTC-ATF.B1    125.00000000
TOTAL ASSETS    1,093.47114028
   
Outstanding MINING   20756
Outstanding SELLING   20756
Outstanding PURCHASE   378
Effective Units   21134
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   19,339,258
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00013002
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00650111
100 days (Forced Close)    0.01300222
365 days (Buyback)    0.04745810
405 days (IPO)    0.05265898
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.05200887
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.05330910
   
NAV Post MINING Div    1,090.72325142
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.05160988
Days Dividend Post Div   396.93
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,090.72325142
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.05160988
PURCHASE selling price    0.05419038
PURCHASE buy-back price    0.05057768


NAV/U is actually exactly accurate - it turned out easiest to just recalculate what balance would have been had all shares been paid dividend at the same time.

Any PURCHASE sent to me for trade will have received a manual payment for the missed dividend (as has Floates for his 48 MINING).  Swaps are all done (other than Floates where I need to know if he wants his MINING/SELLING returned or cashed out - but those HAVE been included in totals correctly).

Sold   175
Swapped   0
Total   175
Price   0.054282
Total   9.49935
Less Fee   9.4803513
Man Fee   0.284410539

Management fee paid.  Am going to do calculation for rest as though dividend were paid on all shares - the tiny difference because of 50 shares sold after dividend time won't make any noticable difference to NAV/U (and will be back to exactly accurate again tomorrow).  It means NAV/U will be under-reported by about 0.01% today then corrected again tomorrow.

Just processed the LTC-ATF.B1 dividend first - so it'll be included in the report for this.

0.7623 BTC received by DMS as its weekly interest.  That's slightly over the 0.75 BTC defined in LTC-ATF.B1's contract as the dividend on the bond is always rounded up to a neat number (in LTC).

When I got up today BTC-TC was down - and it stayed down until I went out for the evening.

It's now back up and I'll be catching up on the admin now.  Because of BTC-TC being down that means crap like manually sending dividends to those who sent me shares to swap in.

I do NOT do swaps back in the other direction (MINING + SELLING for PURCHASE) but I DO buy back MINING + SELLING for the PURCHASE buy-back price (98% of NAV/U).

No way I'm going to put myself in the situation of doing swaps both directions - and having to manually process exchanges back so people can sell just under the official selling price to lock in a 0.1% profit margin.  Or worse end up swapping the same shares back and forth as people change their minds.

Let me know (here or by PM) whether you want the shares returned or for them to be refunded.  You'll get the dividend for the MINING sent manually shortly.

Hey Deprived I sent 48 shares of mining and selling back to the DeprivedMining account a little over midnight Pacific time today and have yet to receive any purchase. This is probably because you arnt used to it going the other way but heh just a heads up

BTC-TC is currently inaccessible.

If the server is still running (but DDOSed) then the dividends will go through on time.  If the server itself is down then I may have to rescehdule dividends as soon as it comes up.

I'll sort out todays accounts once it's up and I can do the math necessary to prepare them.

You should not invest in DMS assets. As you don't seem to understand how a simple asset like TAT.VM works, you are far away from understanding DMS.

Better try BTC Invest, because TF is the one who makes the investment decisions in this fund....

Agreed we should really be doing something with the coins. Buy a cd on coinlenders.

Any progress on investment opportunities? I'd suggest coinlenders, either CDs or just a deposit with 25% APR.

Both can also be profitable if the market price was lower than the real value and you hold them until everything is paid off.