Topic: btt - page 27. (Read 407371 times)
Considered Motion:
bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
I think it's a good motion. Would make more sense for the long term to sell this equipment, plus the sooner it's sold the more bASIC might be able to get for it. More efficient equipment would be awesome too, lower power costs, more profit! bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
Considered Motion:
bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
I am up for this, but is it already necessary? I thought that Avalons are profitable (energy wise) until difficulty around 3-7 billion.
Considered Motion:
bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
Agree
Having the bitcoin available once a unit is nearing the end of it's useful service life will help to improve Basic's hardware.
Similar to depreciation on the mining equipment having the cash is useful.
And woot to the bitcoin network hitting 1 Petahash now its easy to calculate network percentages in Terrahashes for a while
1.435%
going up to 2.235% You are one order of magnitude off, it's 0.1435% going up to 0.2235%
I need to check my decimals thanks
(Need to proofread more)
@ Creative With regards to mining, agree that we are definitely not dead but seeing dropping prices assuming for difficulty increases.
http://decentralizedhashing.com/bitcoin-mining-equipment-table/
(That and we can just watch the PMBs having the ability to increase hashrate efficiently is vital)
@guitarplinker link=topic=130982.msg3169169#msg3169169 date=1379367949]
I just think of Friedcats franchising model if that makes sense.
Others are farming the hashrate and the owner of production takes a share of the revenue earned.
This allows the owner to increase their production while not taking on the unnecessary cost of maintaining the equipment.
From that viewpoint almost seems like a Feudal system with bitcoin mining.
Considered Motion:
bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
bASIC-Mining management shall be authorized to sell mining equipment deemed to be approaching the end of it's useful service life. The proceeds from any such sale shall be applied, in it's entirety, toward the purchase price of more efficient mining equipment.
Well I kind of see mining as farming - please excuse how random it is, I'm from Saskatchewan, Canada - pretty much the farming capital of the world.
Anyway, back in the day you could make a living off of a small amount of land. Now a days it's more and more bigger companies owning more pieces of land, and not many people can survive off of farming small time anymore, not like in the early 1900's.
However people who still own land (it's quite expensive as well, a quarter section goes for around $300k, a quarter section is equal to about 160 acres) seem to be renting it out to the bigger players and striking a deal with them, they get paid a certain % of the total yield of that land.
So, I predict mining will turn into how farming is now, except I'm not quite sure how renting land out to bigger plays will relate to mining, maybe smaller miners will rent their equipment out to bigger players for a certain % back? Who knows.
Anyway, back in the day you could make a living off of a small amount of land. Now a days it's more and more bigger companies owning more pieces of land, and not many people can survive off of farming small time anymore, not like in the early 1900's.
However people who still own land (it's quite expensive as well, a quarter section goes for around $300k, a quarter section is equal to about 160 acres) seem to be renting it out to the bigger players and striking a deal with them, they get paid a certain % of the total yield of that land.
So, I predict mining will turn into how farming is now, except I'm not quite sure how renting land out to bigger plays will relate to mining, maybe smaller miners will rent their equipment out to bigger players for a certain % back? Who knows.
I don't think this is a good comparison. Maybe when it comes to pools this would work in a way but why would someone who can assemble his own chips and miners rent smaller miners? That wouldn't be too smart. I think it will stay as it is right now: Those who produce miners will have preorders, mine with their assembled miners until the ROI is destroyed or at a small margin and sell those miners off. This is the most profitable way.
It might happen to the cryptocurrencies that those people leading bigger assets rent rigs or hashing powers from others but that is the only possibility i could think of. Not everything occuring in the natural world can be transferred to bitcoins and vice versa. (just my 2 Satoshi)
Think of it this way - the value of the old farming land increases, therefore raising the barrier of entry to newcomers (IE people interested in mining, previously CPU or GPU accessibility was common place, ASIC is thousands bare minimum, barring the USB paperweights). The large entities have capital, or acquire it, or source it from smaller farmers who would traditionally harvest the land. Now the land is too expensive for traditional and small farmers to acquire it or the cost of business has risen to a point where scaling economics make more sense (again, GPU vs ASIC..).
It made sense to me, though not exactly the way he concluded it.
However, I do disagree with one point of analysis. As with the small family farmer, the small miner is slowly edged out of the field. Similarly, I do not see "small miners" renting anything to larger entities, rather if anything, they will find other methods to distribute their hardware to turn profit (like ASICMINER's "franchise", allowing a small farmer to get a piece of the pie if they grow the potato on their land, etc). A bit inverse.
Well I kind of see mining as farming - please excuse how random it is, I'm from Saskatchewan, Canada - pretty much the farming capital of the world.
Anyway, back in the day you could make a living off of a small amount of land. Now a days it's more and more bigger companies owning more pieces of land, and not many people can survive off of farming small time anymore, not like in the early 1900's.
However people who still own land (it's quite expensive as well, a quarter section goes for around $300k, a quarter section is equal to about 160 acres) seem to be renting it out to the bigger players and striking a deal with them, they get paid a certain % of the total yield of that land.
So, I predict mining will turn into how farming is now, except I'm not quite sure how renting land out to bigger plays will relate to mining, maybe smaller miners will rent their equipment out to bigger players for a certain % back? Who knows.
Anyway, back in the day you could make a living off of a small amount of land. Now a days it's more and more bigger companies owning more pieces of land, and not many people can survive off of farming small time anymore, not like in the early 1900's.
However people who still own land (it's quite expensive as well, a quarter section goes for around $300k, a quarter section is equal to about 160 acres) seem to be renting it out to the bigger players and striking a deal with them, they get paid a certain % of the total yield of that land.
So, I predict mining will turn into how farming is now, except I'm not quite sure how renting land out to bigger plays will relate to mining, maybe smaller miners will rent their equipment out to bigger players for a certain % back? Who knows.
I don't think this is a good comparison. Maybe when it comes to pools this would work in a way but why would someone who can assemble his own chips and miners rent smaller miners? That wouldn't be too smart. I think it will stay as it is right now: Those who produce miners will have preorders, mine with their assembled miners until the ROI is destroyed or at a small margin and sell those miners off. This is the most profitable way.
It might happen to the cryptocurrencies that those people leading bigger assets rent rigs or hashing powers from others but that is the only possibility i could think of. Not everything occuring in the natural world can be transferred to bitcoins and vice versa. (just my 2 Satoshi)
Well I kind of see mining as farming - please excuse how random it is, I'm from Saskatchewan, Canada - pretty much the farming capital of the world.
Anyway, back in the day you could make a living off of a small amount of land. Now a days it's more and more bigger companies owning more pieces of land, and not many people can survive off of farming small time anymore, not like in the early 1900's.
However people who still own land (it's quite expensive as well, a quarter section goes for around $300k, a quarter section is equal to about 160 acres) seem to be renting it out to the bigger players and striking a deal with them, they get paid a certain % of the total yield of that land.
So, I predict mining will turn into how farming is now, except I'm not quite sure how renting land out to bigger plays will relate to mining, maybe smaller miners will rent their equipment out to bigger players for a certain % back? Who knows.
Anyway, back in the day you could make a living off of a small amount of land. Now a days it's more and more bigger companies owning more pieces of land, and not many people can survive off of farming small time anymore, not like in the early 1900's.
However people who still own land (it's quite expensive as well, a quarter section goes for around $300k, a quarter section is equal to about 160 acres) seem to be renting it out to the bigger players and striking a deal with them, they get paid a certain % of the total yield of that land.
So, I predict mining will turn into how farming is now, except I'm not quite sure how renting land out to bigger plays will relate to mining, maybe smaller miners will rent their equipment out to bigger players for a certain % back? Who knows.
That's correct. With the network crossing the 1,000Th mark last evening it should become increasingly obvious that mining equipment is overbought. The huge number of pre-orders expected to come online in the next few months will make it difficult for anyone to see a positive ROI at current prices.
At some point, something's got to give. One of three things will happen:
- People will stop mining because of the unprofitably.
This will cause the diff to either stop increasing or drop until an equilibrium is reached. - The price of BTC will increase.
- Equipment will become cheaper yet.
Of course 1 and 2 are interrelated.
Agree. I'm not one of those decrying the death of mining...far from. However the huge number of pre-orders already in the system will allow mining to remain unprofitable longer than it otherwise would have as those making pre-orders with lengthy lead times are doing so with incomplete or incorrect information. The portion of these pre-orders that are not eventually refunded are a sunk cost and whether these pre-orders will make their money back for their purchasers or no will not matter. They will eventually see the blockchain so their owners will see a loss that's < 100%.
An increase in exchange rates will both allow older otherwise unprofitable equipment to remain on the blockchain longer AND increase the purchasing power of btc holders that wish to purchase mining equipment priced in fiat.
We know that equipment will become cheaper because we've seen nearly every manufacturer dropping prices recently. August bitfury > October bitfury; Sept knc > Nov knc; December CoinTerra >> January CoinTerra...etc. Manufacturer's margins will contract and those purchasing on the steep side of that slope are unlikely to ever see a positive ROI.
Cheers.
That's correct. With the network crossing the 1,000Th mark last evening it should become increasingly obvious that mining equipment is overbought. The huge number of pre-orders expected to come online in the next few months will make it difficult for anyone to see a positive ROI at current prices.
At some point, something's got to give. One of three things will happen:
- People will stop mining because of the unprofitably.
This will cause the diff to either stop increasing or drop until an equilibrium is reached. - The price of BTC will increase.
- Equipment will become cheaper yet.
Of course 1 and 2 are interrelated.
Don't forget
4.) People will short mining stocks in the belief that none of them will be profitable and will all crash in share price.
That's correct. With the network crossing the 1,000Th mark last evening it should become increasingly obvious that mining equipment is overbought. The huge number of pre-orders expected to come online in the next few months will make it difficult for anyone to see a positive ROI at current prices.
At some point, something's got to give. One of three things will happen:
- People will stop mining because of the unprofitably.
This will cause the diff to either stop increasing or drop until an equilibrium is reached. - The price of BTC will increase.
- Equipment will become cheaper yet.
Of course 1 and 2 are interrelated.
That's correct. With the network crossing the 1,000Th mark last evening it should become increasingly obvious that mining equipment is overbought. The huge number of pre-orders expected to come online in the next few months will make it difficult for anyone to see a positive ROI at current prices.
creativex,
Do you have any plans (and funds) for further mining purchases, something beyond bitfuries?
A 55% increase in hashing power (800 GH/s) for the whole month of October doesn't look quite adequate considering the ongoing difficulty surge. Should we maybe sacrifice dividends in short term to secure more mining equipment (28nm, preferably)?
Do you have any plans (and funds) for further mining purchases, something beyond bitfuries?
A 55% increase in hashing power (800 GH/s) for the whole month of October doesn't look quite adequate considering the ongoing difficulty surge. Should we maybe sacrifice dividends in short term to secure more mining equipment (28nm, preferably)?
I know I am not creativex, but I'll answer anyway. If you look at the official spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArTS7AD--9SWdDNfb0lRNElqS1k1eGRoWEw2TGM4NlE#gid=0
you'll see we have 703 BTCs at our disposal for new purchases. creativex has wisely chosen strategy to wait out price war and order the cheapest and most efficient hardware possible. Bitfuries are just a tip of iceberg.
creativex,
Do you have any plans (and funds) for further mining purchases, something beyond bitfuries?
A 55% increase in hashing power (800 GH/s) for the whole month of October doesn't look quite adequate considering the ongoing difficulty surge. Should we maybe sacrifice dividends in short term to secure more mining equipment (28nm, preferably)?
Do you have any plans (and funds) for further mining purchases, something beyond bitfuries?
A 55% increase in hashing power (800 GH/s) for the whole month of October doesn't look quite adequate considering the ongoing difficulty surge. Should we maybe sacrifice dividends in short term to secure more mining equipment (28nm, preferably)?
And woot to the bitcoin network hitting 1 Petahash now its easy to calculate network percentages in Terrahashes for a while
1.435%
going up to 2.235% You are one order of magnitude off, it's 0.1435% going up to 0.2235%
Right, + bitfury for October, possibly avalon G2 for October, hashfast, cointerra, etc...
This has the potential to get ugly in Q4. Rather than risk capital on gear that could be rendered unprofitable within just a few months, we should instead focus our efforts on obtaining hardware that will be hashing long after G1 products are kicked off the blockchain. 25.5 sounds reasonable, but it's .307/Gh of G1 equipment. Bitfury for October delivery is .156/Gh right this second and has an efficiency that will see it hashing even after knc gear is unplugged.
Though the avalon for 25.5 would be hashing for us sooner than the same BTC applied to an additional bitfury order, it still doesn't make sense as our risk of never seeing a positive ROI is far higher with the avalon purchase. Just a few weeks ago this equation would've been completely different.
Cheers.
This has the potential to get ugly in Q4. Rather than risk capital on gear that could be rendered unprofitable within just a few months, we should instead focus our efforts on obtaining hardware that will be hashing long after G1 products are kicked off the blockchain. 25.5 sounds reasonable, but it's .307/Gh of G1 equipment. Bitfury for October delivery is .156/Gh right this second and has an efficiency that will see it hashing even after knc gear is unplugged.
Though the avalon for 25.5 would be hashing for us sooner than the same BTC applied to an additional bitfury order, it still doesn't make sense as our risk of never seeing a positive ROI is far higher with the avalon purchase. Just a few weeks ago this equation would've been completely different.
Cheers.
Holding is a wise decision in an environment like this, until we have proper calculations on what is delivering who is delivering and how much they are delivering any investment in current generation products is a risk.
And woot to the bitcoin network hitting 1 Petahash now its easy to calculate network percentages in Terrahashes for a while
1.435%
going up to 2.235% http://blog.standardcrypto.com/2013/09/15/what-does-one-petahash-look-like/
http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-network-reaches-1-petahash-per-second/
@ Labcoin well it might be a zero sum or non-zero sum game really hard to tell wait till Wednesday I guess
What is the next planned deployment of hash power for BASIC, if I might ask anyone privy?
Hi BitCoiner2012. Everyone is privy to this information. It was posted on this thread, at btct.co(news), on our spreadsheet, and on basic-mining.com.
**NEWS ITEM**
Quote
bASIC-Mining taps Bitfury US for 800Gh/s
bASIC-Mining is pleased to announce the purchase of it's first generation 2 ASIC mining hardware. An order for 800Gh/s has been placed with Bitfury US for October delivery. Bitfury's impressive performance both in producing and delivering what is now the market's leading equipment made this an easy decision. Upon receipt of this equipment bASIC-Mining's hashrate will rise to approximately 2,235,000Mh/s.
Additional information about this purchase as well as all of bASIC-Mining's current hardware will be made available at http://www.basic-mining.com
Cheers.
CreativeX
bASIC-Mining is pleased to announce the purchase of it's first generation 2 ASIC mining hardware. An order for 800Gh/s has been placed with Bitfury US for October delivery. Bitfury's impressive performance both in producing and delivering what is now the market's leading equipment made this an easy decision. Upon receipt of this equipment bASIC-Mining's hashrate will rise to approximately 2,235,000Mh/s.
Additional information about this purchase as well as all of bASIC-Mining's current hardware will be made available at http://www.basic-mining.com
Cheers.
CreativeX
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3075722
What is the next planned deployment of hash power for BASIC, if I might ask anyone privy?
Creativex, just in case you missed it, burnin's own bitfury design - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitburner-fury-hashrate-protection-294735
it looks like price is even better than bitfury original. Of course it depends on when bitfury will ship the chips
it looks like price is even better than bitfury original. Of course it depends on when bitfury will ship the chips
Promise:
Out of necessity a new thread for a new product:
I want to test the waters if you would be interested in such a board
The Bitfury design i am working on is a 16 Chip board with the same form factor as the BitBurner.
I think it makes sense that i will sell boards including the chips now - no more group buys.
Best demonstrated performance per chip is currently 2.7Ghash resulting in 42ghash/s per board.
I am aiming for 5 Ghash per chip, i will be doing things differently then the competition which will hopefully
allow us to squeeze more performance out of this silicon.
Host interface and Controller / stacking will stay the same.
Price: ~470eur+vat (Complete module including chips)
Delivery: early October if Punin delivers on time.
I want to test the waters if you would be interested in such a board
The Bitfury design i am working on is a 16 Chip board with the same form factor as the BitBurner.
I think it makes sense that i will sell boards including the chips now - no more group buys.
Best demonstrated performance per chip is currently 2.7Ghash resulting in 42ghash/s per board.
I am aiming for 5 Ghash per chip, i will be doing things differently then the competition which will hopefully
allow us to squeeze more performance out of this silicon.
Host interface and Controller / stacking will stay the same.
Price: ~470eur+vat (Complete module including chips)
Delivery: early October if Punin delivers on time.
Reality w/ CryptX involved:
Price: ~470eur+vat (Complete module including chips)
Delivery: early October if Punin delivers on time.
Delivery: early October if Punin delivers on time.
Site is online and price with shipping (to germany) and VAT is 895.40€ - are you kidding me?
Not interested.
Burnin might as well not waste his time on this product at that price point. Though we wouldn't have to pay VAT, shipping to the US would be costly both in absolute terms and in mining revenue lost while the gear was in transit.
Cheers.
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